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The Catholic Church: A different look

Tonight I’d like to write about what used to be my religion: Catholicism. Why should you care, dear reader? Maybe you’ve never been in the Church, or any Church, and would like to get some insider information. Maybe you’ve only been told bad things about the Catholic Church and are wondering how a billion people can be so stupid as to still be part of it. Is there anything good about the Catholic Church? Does anyone intelligent and not delusional believe in that **** in 2012?

I claim to be intelligent, not delusional, to have a deep understanding of Catholic faith, and I suppose my now agnostic and materialistic views will improve my credibility in the eyes of the agnostic and materialistic majority that seems to compose these boards and today’s intelligentsia, for the most part. I also have the rather rare position of deeply admiring the Catholic Church while not believing in most of what it teaches. I will try to stay as factual as possible, but this post is voluntarily biased towards praising the Catholic Church: I think the Church gets enough bad press without my contribution in that regard.

Let’s start with some facts, taken straight from universal web authority (lol) Wikipedia. The Catholic Church:
  • is the world’s largest Christian church
  • has over a billion members
  • is among the oldest institutions in the world
  • has played a prominent role in the history of Western civilization
  • claims to be founded by Jesus-Christ, who is widely considered the most influential person ever to have lived
In other words, nothing man-made approaches the Catholic Church in both spatial-temporal size and historical importance. In nerd lingo, something that epic must be made out of win.

The Catholic Church also teaches a bunch of concepts that you may be familiar with:
  • That individual human life is sacred
  • All humans are equal in rights and dignity regardless of sex, nationality, social status, etc.
  • That church and state are distinct and complementary (i.e. separation of church and state)
We take them for granted today, but these ideas were completely alien to most people 2000 years ago, and still are today in many countries, predominantly where Christianity has never spread. As a cursory study of both History and Theology reveals, what we call inalienable rights today is essentially the development of Christian ideas such as:
  • God made man in His image (ergo individual human life is sacred)
  • Everyone is a child of God and a brother of Christ in Baptism, (ergo all are equal)
  • “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s” (ergo separation of church and state)
That is not to say that these ideas do not find echoes in other religions and ideologies – but this is their origin in Western civilization and this is why they still represent such strong convictions today, even as Christianity loses part of its social relevance in modern society.

The Church also has done a whole lot of awesome that basically makes our world what it is today, such as
  • Preserving remnants of Greek and Roman Civilization (traditions, artistic and scientific writings) throughout the Dark and Middle Ages, allowing the Renaissance to happen.
  • Uniting Europe under common fundamental beliefs and a central authority, allowing it to stand as a whole versus other world powers (i.e. Islam in the Middle Ages).
  • Creating the first schools and universities.
  • Inventing the modern notation of music and inspiring most early musical works.
  • Stimulating Western visual arts and architecture through the construction of Cathedrals, Monasteries, etc.
  • Setting up and maintaining schools, hospitals, orphanages, spiritual guidance and much of societies’ basic organization systematically throughout History.
That is to say, the Catholic Church is largely responsible for positively building and defining Western civilization as we know it. A good modern treatment of the subject is given, I’m told, in “How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization” by Thomas E. Woods, if you’re interested in learning more.

A common misconception is that the Catholic Church crippled scientific progress through heavy censorship, the archetypal example being Galileo’s theory of heliocentrism. While this event undeniably occurred and is a regrettable mistake (one that the Church did apologize for), it represents, overall, a slight blemish on a two-millennia history of sustained teaching through its monks, nuns and priests, essentially enabling science to rise as it has. In regards to astronomy in particular, historian John Lewis Heilbron notes: “The Roman Catholic Church gave more financial aid and support to the study of astronomy for over six centuries, from the recovery of ancient learning during the late Middle Ages into the Enlightenment, than any other, and, probably, all other, institutions.” (Heilbron, J. L. (1999). The Sun in the Church: Cathedrals as Solar Observatories. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.)

While we’re talking misconceptions: it is often perceived that the Crusades were nothing more than unnecessary violence motivated by irrational zealotry. In reality, the Crusades were a response to Islamic invasion of Europe, and were it not for all European states uniting against the invader, today we would live under Islamic beliefs. Given how the Islamic world has evolved since its Golden Age (i.e. not a whole lot), I don’t think that would have been a very desirable outcome. In the Middle-Ages, the only reason Europe could unite as a whole was the Catholic Church.

It is also often heard that the Vatican is stinking rich and that selling its assets would solve world hunger or something. In reality, the Vatican’s operating budget is about 385 M $, which is comparable to a moderate-size university; and its assets have, by and large, no monetary value: no one can put Michelangelo’s works or the St Peter Basilica on the market. For the most part, the Catholic clergy and religious live a life of charity and possess little material wealth: assets such as churches, schools and hospitals were generally built by their local community to benefit from their services. True, there have been scandalous counter-examples especially around the Renaissance, with a relatively decadent clergy; these periods are hardly representative of History as a whole and especially of what the Church is today.

Speaking of charities, before the Reformation virtually all charities were administered by the Church; and even in this day and age where most schools and hospitals are under the control of the State, Catholic charities are everywhere and provide for all human needs – both material and spiritual. It is often said that Catholic Church is the largest charity in the world: while the Church is not, in itself, technically, a charity, it consists mainly of a plethora of charitable organizations, and with the presence the Church has all over the world, it is difficult to imagine how any single organization could represent a larger charity.

But surely there is corruption and child abuse and greed and whatnot within the clergy, right? Sure. It used to be even worse than it is today. Catholics are as informed and preoccupied with that as any other. Why do they stay in the Church, then? For two reasons:
  • Because of Catholic faith itself: Catholics believe that all men are sinners, all men are tempted by the devil, and all may fail to uphold the good whether they are laymen or the Pope. They also believe that the true leader of the Church is Christ, and that He will see that it survives any challenge whether from outside or within. In the face of human failure, Catholics keep their faith because their faith isn’t placed in fallible humans, but in God.
  • Because very simply, the good far outweighs the bad in the Catholic Church, even when scandal strikes some of the clergy or religious communities. This is hard to believe when all you know of the Catholic Church is what you read in the news, but the purpose of journalists is to report what is exceptional, not the daily routine.
So what do Catholics believe in? Aren’t they opposed to science and progress, woman and gay rights, don’t they worship an old book that teaches men to stone their wives?

This is Jesus’ answer:

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“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:36-40
In other words, Catholics worship God and try to be charitable to others. Pretty simple stuff. There’s a lot more, of course, but charity and worship is what it boils down to.

Catholics do not interpret the Old Testament in its literal sense, for the most part. The Law of Moses is seen as an intermediary step towards the Law of Christ: love for God and others. Catholics do not believe that the world was literally created in 7 days, but that Genesis is a symbolic tale of God’s fundamental plan and man’s fall. For the record, the Big Bang theory was first proposed by a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître. The vast majority of Catholics believe in Evolution, and as illustrated earlier, the Catholic Church has been at the forefront of scientific exploration, creating schools and universities all over the world, and including among its devout such famous names as Copernicus, Galileo, Lavoisier, Mendel, Ockham and many others.

Well what about resurrection then? What about angels, demons and such? What about miracles, or even the afterlife? Isn’t that all ridiculous in this day and age?

It is ridiculous from a materialist point of view, perhaps. The thing is, materialism is a philosophical view, not a scientific theory, and is ultimately as improvable by the scientific method as any other metaphysical view of the universe. Most people are not materialist and therefore do not see any inherent problem with the existence of non-material entities, or that of the supernatural order. There’s nothing inherently absurd (i.e. self-contradictory) about the idea that spiritual beings exist, or that an omnipotent uncreated being is the supreme ruler of the universe. Maybe you are unconvinced (as I am) by the arguments presented for their existence, but there’s a difference between insufficient proof and absurdity. Maybe Catholics believe in things that are not well-founded, but so do most people including atheists. Who can say God certainly doesn’t exist? A human lifetime is probably too short to answer the question, and Catholics have decided to side with the “yes” rather than “no” answer because the evidence for the “yes” seemed more convincing to them than for the “no”. There’s a whole bunch of them including PhDs (Benedict XVI is several times PhD), and they’ve been there for two millennia, so there must be some fairly good arguments. As a matter of fact, there are quite a lot of well-reasoned arguments for the existence of God, the truth of the Gospel, etc, and the topic is far from exhausted among philosophers today.

People tend to presume that believers do not question their beliefs or reason about them, but so do believers vs. non-believers! What I’m basically arguing is that it’s not obvious that Catholics are wrong in their beliefs, and we shouldn’t hold them to higher standards than those who agree with our beliefs. Challenge your materialist friends on why they are materialist, and I doubt they will have a much better defense than your average Catholic. We’re generally too busy with Facebook and our girlfriends to spend time thinking about metaphysics, and Catholics are not very different in that regard.

I guess I most stop this post at some point, so allow me to summarize:
  • The Catholic Church has been a tremendous positive influence in History: far from stifling progress, it has essentially made it possible.
  • The Catholic Church is a huge, epic force of Good in today’s world: thousands of charities all over the world, way above any non-religious organization.
  • Fundamental Western values of respect, equality, tolerance are part of our Christian heritage.
  • Catholic faith is all about love of God and others, and can make sense from a non-materialistic point of view.




Very interesting post, but too one-sided.
You look at the problem by assuming that every Catholic person in the world does what he should do according to the good parts of the Bible and according to what Jesus did.

All religions start from something that is usually not so bad (Jesus didn't write the Bible, after all). But the people who use it are mostly people who want power. Most animals have a society based on a simple law: the strongest one wins, period. Humans are animals. Which means we should still be in that kind of system... and that's where faith comes. If you are smart enough to convince people that a god exists, you can break the law of the strongest and start ruling people stronger than you because they do not realize you are manipulating them.

In a "traditional" society, the priest has influence on pretty much everything. Why? Because it is easy to explain very complex stuff (tide goes in, tide goes out...) by claiming it is God's will. Since most people cannot imagine any other solution (after all, even scientists can't explain gravity even though they understand how it works), they accept that explanation, and begin accepting that a God exists and rules the Universe. From that moment on, priests have absolute power on almost everyone. Take human sacrifices, for instance. It is horrible, and it is done in the name of religion. Why? Because it's the final step in submission to religion. Once you start thinking that sacrificing your children because a priest tells you to is okay, you are locked into eternal submission to your religious leaders. Obviously, no one actually tried sacrificing people and testing whether it worked or not; it was a natural escalation to have even more control over people. First minor sacrifices (praying every day) then medium ones (killing animals), then major ones (killing people).

Religions are made to justify "laws" that could not be justifiable by claiming it is God's will. Why did Eve eat the apple? Because that makes women the reason we are not in Paradise any more, thus allowing religious leaders to claim women must pay for their ancestor's mistake and be eternally inferior. Without religion, it'd very hard to force women into submission; using religion, you can actually make them believe they are inferior, and they will oppose no resistance to their oppressors.

Kings often claimed they were kings because God decided so, and other people were inferior also because of God's will. This gives enormous power to kings because no one dares question their authority. It gives even more power to the church itself, because it could say some person is in fact not sent by God, thus immediately destroying their reign. That's one of the reasons a lot of religions take eternal life as granted; it's hard to force people to obey someone who is exactly like them apart from the birthplace. But if you promise servants that they will enjoy eternal life in Paradise while their greedy masters will burn in Hell for the rest of eternity, it looks like a good deal.

Galileo was condemned by the Catholic Church because said something that did not match what the Church's teachings and made sense. The tools we make get better every day, and with better tools you can explain much more phenomenons that were previously impossible to explain. Once someone convinces people that their religion is wrong on at least one important fact, there is a chance that they start questioning other teachings. Then religious leaders you are in deep trouble, risking to lose the power they have. Thus, they need to censor theories that do not match their teachings.
The Church was considerably weakened when we discovered how to print books. The Bible only goes so far; plenty of religious "laws" are not inside, and were created for various purposes. Allowing people to discover what is really inside forced the Church to withdraw indulgences, for example. Every time science and tools get better, faith gets weaker.

The Catholic Church stopping progress is not some kind of small historical event that happened once or twice; it was the case every time an explanation was needed to make something morally right such as slavery, or someone was challenging the Church's teachings. The Church itself can donate a lot of money because the people receiving it will not dare to do something that is contrary to the beliefs of their donors. Paintings are an excellent example; the reason there are trillions of religious paintings is because the people giving money to painters were either part of the Church itself or forced to obey because the reason they are who they are is related to the Church (e.g. kings).
René Descartes proved the existence of God. Frankly, his proof is lame. But Descartes was smart, so why did he do that? Because he knew very well that he would become a prime target for clerical censorship if he didn't accept God's existence, especially after saying you cannot be sure anything really exists.

Rick Santorum's presidential bid was funny because everyone knew he'd lose, but also scary because a society built on Santorum's model would be horrible for most of its members. What was once accepted by everyone is now seen as being insane and retarded.

You believe the Catholic Church brought progress; I believe the opposite. We have achieved considerable progress not thanks to religion, but in spite of religion.
Draw a graph: "how much influence religion has on people's daily life" on one axis and "level of progress achieved" on the other, with a dot for every civilization you can think of. It's a line that goes straight down. Islamic nations? Huge influence on daily life, low progress. Nations "freed" by the Arab Spring? Rising influence of religion, "progress" by Western standards is going backwards (also true for Iran). "Western" nations? Low influence on daily life, advanced civilization. And so on. (I'm not talking about how much people are believers, but how far their beliefs leads them)

Catholic faith is not only about loving others, it's also about obeying priests, never doing anything that brings pleasure (gluttony, lust, ...) if you want to go to Heaven, and so on. What you're looking for is Jesus' original teachings, which are indeed about love and peace.
The post, as I stated, was intentionally one-sided. I could also spend quite a bit of time criticizing the Church, but I think others already do that very well; all the criticism sometimes hides the bigger picture and that's I was trying to bring back.

Your idea of a fundamental opposition between on one hand science, progress and democracy, and on the other religion and faith, is precisely the general, widespread misconception I attempted to address in this post. It's based on an ideology, and facts prove it wrong.

For example, you talk about human or animal sacrifices being something done in the name of religion; but it is Christianity that obsoleted these sacrifices, not scientific progress.

It is also Christianity that largely abolished slavery throughout Europe, as it was practiced by the Greeks and Romans; already St Paul in the New Testament calls to treat slaves as brothers.

It is also Christianity that brought much greater equality between man and woman, even though much remains to be done today in that regard. As I said, this is obvious when comparing christian nations with those where this religion has not spread.

As I said, the Catholic Church did exert some undue censorship, but what's much more significant is how it created, maintained and developed school and scientific research all over the world. Descartes wouldn't even had received an education if it wasn't for the Church's monasteries in the Middle-Ages before him. Galileo was censored not because he explained what couldn't be explained before, but because his explanation seemed to contradict Scripture. Granted, that was retarded - but the Church has supported and funded astronomy more than any other institution in history. Galileo wouldn't have had a telescope to test his theory with in the first place if it hadn't been for the Catholic Church.

It is easy to look back a thousand years and point out how backwards people were back then, but it's not logical nor historically accurate to blame it on Christianity.

And I am not talking about Islam nor "religion" as a whole, which is a vague and undefinable term. Putting all religions in one bag and saying they support human sacrifices is like putting all forms of government in one bag and saying they support genocide, so we should abolish governments. I do believe Islam has some internal vices that are holding back, to some degree, those countries that espouse it; although, one must also consider that Islam caused rapid social and scientific progress in the Middle-Ages that greatly benefited all civilizations. So it's far from black and white, and your idea of a direct inverse correlation between Christianity and progress is simply a common misconception that is in blatant contradiction with History. I quoted several different sources that you may be interested in reading if you disagree.

Also the idea that Catholic faith forbids pleasure is simply wrong. In fact, it fought many systems of thought (platonic dualism, manicheism, catharism, etc.) that demonized the body; in Christian tradition, the body is good and we resurrect with bodies at the end of time. Gluttony is abusive love of food, and is way more frowned upon today (due to widespread obesity) than it was 100 years ago. Lust is not seen as inherently bad in Catholic faith, though it can lead to bad behavior - which is just common sense and is found in all influential ethics, from Greek philosophy to today.

Also the idea that since believers think God is all powerful, priests have unquestioned power just... doesn't follow. Just ask any Catholic practitioner whether he would jump off a cliff if his priest told him to, if you're unconvinced. Priests are there to dispense religious services: preach the gospel, administer sacraments. Their power is nothing compared to today's politicians and businessmen. The Church did enjoy tremendous political power for a few centuries, yes - but it exists and provides the same services with or without. It's not an essential or necessary aspect of it, it was just how history went for a while, in part for good and in part for bad. Yes, there was abuse - but saying that's a reason for getting rid of religion is like saying we should rid of our governments because they've always been corrupt, caused wars and harbored greedy selfish individuals. Put humans in power and they'll abuse it; that's still better than anarchy though.
(quoting seems to mess up the line-breaks, sorry)

Dr_Asik, on 25 May 2012 - 17:33, said:

The post, as I stated, was intentionally one-sided. I could also spend quite a bit of time criticizing the Church, but I think others already do that very well; all the criticism sometimes hides the bigger picture and that's I was trying to bring back.Your idea of a fundamental opposition between on one hand science, progress and democracy, and on the other religion and faith, is precisely the general, widespread misconception I attempted to address in this post. It's based on an ideology, and facts prove it wrong.For example, you talk about human or animal sacrifices being something done in the name of religion; but it is Christianity that obsoleted these sacrifices, not scientific progress.It is also Christianity that largely abolished slavery throughout Europe, as it was practiced by the Greeks and Romans; already St Paul in the New Testament calls to treat slaves as brothers.It is also Christianity that brought much greater equality between man and woman, even though much remains to be done today in that regard. As I said, this is obvious when comparing christian nations with those where this religion has not spread.
Do you include the Old Testament as a Christian book? There are some pretty cruel instructions about how to deal with slaves and sex slaves in the Book of Exodus (e.g. selling your daughter, being not guilty if your slave survives for one day after being beaten, ...), and a nice explanation of what you should do in case someone tells you or one of your relatives about other gods in the Book of Deuteronomy (kill them all, burn their city). Plus a ton of ways to get a wife.

Obviously, the Church didn't invent slavery, sacrifices, or female submission. These things were all routinely done before religion existed. But religions included laws about them. Some of the worst practices were indeed removed (thankfully), but most of it was kept.
You seem to believe that Catholicism is better than other religions when it comes to human rights. It's partly right and partly wrong. Yes, women are better treated in a Catholic country than they are in an Islamic one, but that doesn't mean they are well treated.
In ancient African tribes, for example, women have a much more powerful role than in European countries. In the former, women can voice their opinion on most subjects, whereas in the latter women are powerless outside of their homes.

Dr_Asik, on 25 May 2012 - 17:33, said:

As I said, the Catholic Church did exert some undue censorship, but what's much more significant is how it created, maintained and developed school and scientific research all over the world. Descartes wouldn't even had received an education if it wasn't for the Church's monasteries in the Middle-Ages before him. Galileo was censored not because he explained what couldn't be explained before, but because his explanation seemed to contradict Scripture. Granted, that was retarded - but the Church has supported and funded astronomy more than any other institution in history. Galileo wouldn't have had a telescope to test his theory with in the first place if it hadn't been for the Catholic Church.It is easy to look back a thousand years and point out how backwards people were back then, but it's not logical nor historically accurate to blame it on Christianity.
The resources were there, but they were almost exclusively taken by the Church.
As I said, the Catholic Church was extremely powerful, and controlling everything related to education is an excellent way to keep it.
Since they controlled almost everything printed in books until Gutenberg invented printing, they could silence anyone who did not say what they wanted.
Whenever an entity has absolute control over what information can be shared, there is censorship. Especially considering how weak the basis for theist theses are - or, rather, nonexistent. You can choose to believe in God or not, and then you have to pick yours... unless you are told from your infancy how God invented the universe, and prevented from reading anything that contradicts this theory.

The reason for the sudden boom in the number of conversions from one religion to another or to atheism/agnosticism is simple: we can do it. Nowadays, we are able to say "I do not believe in God" without being excluded from society or killed in developed countries. The only reason we didn't do so before is the fact we couldn't.

Dr_Asik, on 25 May 2012 - 17:33, said:

Also the idea that since believers think God is all powerful, priests have unquestioned power just... doesn't follow. Just ask any Catholic practitioner whether he would jump off a cliff if his priest told him to, if you're unconvinced. Priests are there to dispense religious services: preach the gospel, administer sacraments. Their power is nothing compared to today's politicians and businessmen. The Church did enjoy tremendous political power for a few centuries, yes - but it exists and provides the same services with or without. It's not an essential or necessary aspect of it, it was just how history went for a while, in part for good and in part for bad. Yes, there was abuse - but saying that's a reason for getting rid of religion is like saying we should rid of our governments because they've always been corrupt, caused wars and harbored greedy selfish individuals. Put humans in power and they'll abuse it; that's still better than anarchy though.
Catholic practitioners wouldn't jump off a cliff if their priest told them to, but History shows that they would give tons of money, pray, go to church multiple times per week, learn biblical verses... Not many people have that kind of power over others.

The reason we do not want dictatorships is that very few people are good enough to serve for the greater good when given great power, even though a "good" dictator would do more good than most current forms of government. That should be the reason not to want a powerful church.


There is a chicken and egg problem here: you believe that the Church caused progress, I believe that progress forced the Church to adapt.

Aethec, on 28 May 2012 - 17:10, said:

Do you include the Old Testament as a Christian book?
I adressed that in the original post. "Catholics do not interpret the Old Testament in its literal sense, for the most part. The Law of Moses is seen as an intermediary step towards the Law of Christ: love for God and others." The directives in the Old Testament may seem harsh and primitive by our standards, but they were a marked improvement over what prevailed before.

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Obviously, the Church didn't invent slavery, sacrifices, or female submission. These things were all routinely done before religion existed. But religions included laws about them. Some of the worst practices were indeed removed (thankfully), but most of it was kept.
Slavery largely disappeared in Western Europe by the late middle-ages, in good part due to repeated prohibition by the Catholic Church. This coincided with the apogee of the Catholic Church in terms of political power. Therefore, slavery was largely abolished due to Catholicism rather than its decline or scientific progress. The very idea that all humans are equal came from Catholic theology. That doesn't mean it was applied equally at all epochs, but one cannot tax Catholicism of having a negative influence in that regard, much the reverse in fact.



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You seem to believe that Catholicism is better than other religions when it comes to human rights. It's partly right and partly wrong. Yes, women are better treated in a Catholic country than they are in an Islamic one, but that doesn't mean they are well treated.
In ancient African tribes, for example, women have a much more powerful role than in European countries. In the former, women can voice their opinion on most subjects, whereas in the latter women are powerless outside of their homes.
There are still great inequalities between man and woman even in countries that have had no state religion for several generations now. Catholicism hasn't brought perfect equality but nothing has so far. Mentalities don't change easily.

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The resources were there, but they were almost exclusively taken by the Church.
Okay so there were schools and teachers lying around freely and they were conquered by the Church and the Church put a wall around them so that no one would access education. I don't mean to ridicule your position but I just don't see how can it make sense.

After the barbarian invasions in the 5th century, there were no institutions in Europe. There was no schools and no teaching. The Church didn't capture existing resources, it created them. It created monasteries, schools and universities. It educated the masses. It developed writing and logic and discussion. It preserved fundamentals of roman and greek tradition. The Renaissance happened because the Church made it possible. Still today, organisms like the OIEC groups thousands of schools all over the world. The Catholic Church has always heavily supported education and free education.

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As I said, the Catholic Church was extremely powerful, and controlling everything related to education is an excellent way to keep it.
The Church didn't prevent anyone from teaching, there just wasn't any teaching. The Church made it all. You can't blame the Church for controlling what it created.

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Since they controlled almost everything printed in books until Gutenberg invented printing, they could silence anyone who did not say what they wanted.
Until Gutenberg invented printing, not much was read or written at all because there was no convenient way of reproducing books. In fact, no books would have been written at all in that period if it hadn't been for monks painstakingly copying in the Middle-Ages.

But the idea of censorship before the invention of printing is just false, nothing of the sort happened during the Middle-Ages. The Index was only created in the 16th century.

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Especially considering how weak the basis for theist theses are - or, rather, nonexistent. You can choose to believe in God or not, and then you have to pick yours... unless you are told from your infancy how God invented the universe, and prevented from reading anything that contradicts this theory.
... or unless you are told from your infancy that religion is superstition and dangerous and are never shown anything to contradict the idea. ;)

You pretend to defend free thinking but you should realize you are only preaching the same old, tired anti-religious argumentation (seriously, it hasn't changed much for the past 200 years) of a particular ideology that is seeing some popularity in the mainstream intelligentsia today, based largely on preconceptions of History. That's not what I would call free thinking.

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History shows that they would give tons of money, pray, go to church multiple times per week, learn biblical verses... Not many people have that kind of power over others.
History also shows that the Church was responsible for much of the political and social structure of Europe. While the secular power who mainly just waged war against each other and overfed a lazy nobility, taxed peasants up to 90% of their income, the Church who built Cathedrals and Monasteries, and allowed Europe to prevent total muslim invasion, asked 10%. Today the Catholic Church is the largest world charity by far. The large majority of religious people and clergymen live and have lived lives of poverty and charity, despite some blatant counter-examples especially from the 15th to 19th century. It doesn't seem fair to blame them for the money they ask.

People pray, attend religious services and read spiritual lectures mainly for their own spiritual growth, because it brings them peace and happiness. Maybe you should ask practitioners why they go to Church or pray, I doubt they'll answer "because the priest told me to".
How do you explain the fact that the Middle Ages, in which we lost a lot of inventions from the Roman Empire and didn't progress much (in fact, we regressed on a lot of stuff), is also the time at which the Catholic Church was the most influent?
You believe that slavery ended thanks to the Church because the end of slavery came when the Church had lots of power. I can use that reasoning, too.


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The very idea that all humans are equal came from Catholic theology.
What about the divine right of kings (see http://en.wikipedia...._right_of_kings ) ?
What matters is the Church's actions in practice, not their theoretical ones.

Aethec, on 02 June 2012 - 14:05, said:

How do you explain the fact that the Middle Ages, in which we lost a lot of inventions from the Roman Empire and didn't progress much (in fact, we regressed on a lot of stuff), is also the time at which the Catholic Church was the most influent?
The Middle Ages saw a decline of civilization because civilization in Western Europe was the Roman Empire and the Roman Empire fell due to barbarian invasion and various other internal causes.

Great social and technological progress was made during the Middle Ages, contrarily to a very old and tenacious myth.

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The medieval period is frequently caricatured as supposedly a "time of ignorance and superstition" which placed "the word of religious authorities over personal experience and rational activity."[227] This is a legacy from both the Renaissance and Enlightenment, when scholars contrasted their intellectual cultures with the medieval period, with a negative attitude toward the Middle Ages. Renaissance scholars saw the Classical world as a time of high culture and civilization, and saw the Middle Ages as a decline from that culture. Enlightenment scholars saw reason as superior to faith, and thus viewed the Middle Ages as a time of ignorance and superstition.[10]

Others argue that reason was generally held in high regard during the Middle Ages. Science historian Edward Grant writes, "If revolutionary rational thoughts were expressed [in the 18th century], they were only made possible because of the long medieval tradition that established the use of reason as one of the most important of human activities".[228] Also, contrary to common belief, David Lindberg writes, "the late medieval scholar rarely experienced the coercive power of the church and would have regarded himself as free (particularly in the natural sciences) to follow reason and observation wherever they led"
http://en.wikipedia....es#Modern_image

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increased recognition of the accomplishments of the Middle Ages since the 19th century has led to the label [Dark Ages] being restricted in application. Since the 20th century, it is frequently applied only to the earlier part of the era, the Early Middle Ages (c. 5th–10th century).[7][8] However, many modern scholars who study the era tend to avoid the term altogether for its negative connotations, finding it misleading and inaccurate for any part of the Middle Ages.[9][10][11] http://en.wikipedia....historiography)

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What about the divine right of kings (see http://en.wikipedia...._right_of_kings ) ?
I suggest actually reading the article. You're talking about an idea that arose during the 16th century, was authored by a jurist and philosopher, and was based on an interpretation of Roman Law. The article you linked to explains very plainly that the kings in England became an absolute divine power precisely because England separated from the Catholic Church:

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The French Huguenot nobles and clergy, having rejected the pope and the Catholic Church, were left only with the supreme power of the king who, they taught, could not be gainsaid or judged by anyone. Since there was no longer the countervailing power of the papacy and since the Church of England was a creature of the state and had become subservient to it, this meant that there was nothing to regulate the powers of the king, and he became an absolute power.

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What matters is the Church's actions in practice, not their theoretical ones.
Ideas change History more than anything else.
I learned long ago that arguing with Aethec about anything to do with religion is like beating your head against a brick wall. No matter how many facts you present to him, he will either ignore them or twist them to his own agenda. He looks at the instances of failures or abuses of religion as being representative of the whole of religion, while ignoring the tremendous good that religion has done throughout the ages. He often views extremist religious views as being mainstream beliefs.

He is so completely anti-religion that he fails to see that his viewpoint is a religion in itself.

FWIW, I recently came back to the Catholic church after over a decade away from it.

May 2013

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