Neowin Forums > The MSStyle to WindowBlinds porter manifest.

Pas

Dec 29 2004, 04:15

most of the neowin readers are young high school or college aged students who prefer not to purchase software. if it can be done freely, that is the avenue they will pursue. my daughter graduated from college last year. i know there were times when she didn't have much expendable income. dad paid her rent and made sure she didn't go hungry, tho

. as for the wb skins not being useable, that's rubbish! i've been using Anamoly since the day it was released. if you're not familiar with Anamoly, it's one of the skins in the Unorthodox skinpack. there are hundreds of really good wb skins (of which, i have mabye 60 on my machine) and there are many very nice msstyle skins. the msstyle skins i like, i convert and add the wb features to them. there many things wb can do that msstyles can't. kol, please add the wb features

if you don't, i will

it all boils down to what a person likes, visually. some like blondes, others like redheads. as for an athlon a64 3400+ with 2 gig of ram having glitches when running wb.....it isn't wb. i have an a64 3500+ with 1 gig of pc3500 ram and i have never experienced any glitches. i just built an a64 3400 with 512 mb of ram for my daughter and it doesn't experience any glitches, either. my system has an ati 9800 pro card, her's has an nvidia 5700 ultra. also, make sure the themes service is disabled. now, getting back to the premise of the thread....adam, the convertor does a great job and i know you're never satisfied with it's progress. i'm sure whatever advances you add to sks will be benificial to the community.

M. Seth

Dec 29 2004, 04:15

QUOTE

It is still a question of choice. I just hope that in the end your porter won't kill the msstyle "free of charge" community by getting everyone to use WB, and then grab them by the balls, er I mean wallet.

I hope it always stays free also. Creativity should never hampered by fee for service.

Circaflex

Dec 29 2004, 04:19

i used windowblinds before, slowed down my system and thought id never use it again. With the purchase of my 6800 gt from bfg, windowblinds came on the cd. I gave it a try and put the theme supplied i think it was a bfg/nvidia theme, and well its a great program. I love all the eyecandy so it appeals to me more than msstyles now. I havent really noticed any performance hits, but i shouldnt ive got a fast system.

Dr.Jones

Dec 29 2004, 04:22

QUOTE(AthleticTrainer1981 @ Dec 29 2004, 00:15)

I hope it always stays free also. Creativity should never hampered by fee for service.
[right][snapback]585187595[/snapback][/right]

And everytime I see another extra bloated and unusable skinpack being sold on wincustomize.org, I cringe.

Come on, WB skin designer ! quit it with the bevel effect in photoshop. It's not even funny anymore. IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE ITS MADE FROM METAL OK?? even if it looked real, maybe I don't want my interface to look like some industrial metallic waste being reprocessed. now that was rude, I'm sorry.

Here's a smily :

M. Seth

Dec 29 2004, 04:25

QUOTE(Dr.Jones @ Dec 28 2004, 22:22)

And everytime I see another extra bloated and unusable skinpack being sold on wincustomize.org, I cringe.

Come on, WB skin designer ! quit it with the bevel effect in photoshop. It's not even funny anymore. IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE ITS MADE FROM METAL OK?? even if it looked real, maybe I don't want my interface to look like some industrial metallic waste being reprocessed. now that was rude, I'm sorry.

Here's a smily :

[right][snapback]585187645[/snapback][/right]

The only premium suites sold on wincustomize I have seen are from pixtudio which are great themes and very professional.

Ji@nBing

Dec 29 2004, 04:28

QUOTE(Frogboy @ Dec 29 2004, 12:09)

Re One last point about "quality" of skins. Let us remember that it's not a fair comparsion to pick the top skins from Kol or b0se that get posted here on Neowin with the typical skin on WinCustomize.com. If you want to do apples and apples, compare the skins on WinCustomize to the skins on ThemeXP.org. The typical msstyle is pretty horrific. And I don't care for most WindowBlinds skins either.

In a given GOOD year of skinning, there are probably about three dozen GOOD skins created. The best skins get mentioned here on Neowin. That is, after all, one of the points of coming to Neowin.net in the first place.

Cheers!
[right][snapback]585187565[/snapback][/right]

I completely agree with you here. It seems many of us on neowin only get our skins from here, gfxoais, ect... The places where the top and very elite styles are released. If you look at other skinning sites like themexp, most msstyles are just as bad, if not much worse than those ugly WB ones. There are a lot of really nice WB themes on wincustomize. The problem is there are also all those crappy ones, so you really have to sort through to find the nice ones. This can take a really long time and that's why I think a lot of people get turned off WB. Hopefully Frogboy can find a solution to this problem. Maybe have a seperate page for only top rated themes?

Frogboy

Dec 29 2004, 04:31

QUOTE(evo0o @ Dec 29 2004, 03:39)

His reason is same as all the others such as myself don't use stardock's programs... you have to pay to use a program that can be emulated for free.
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If the features in msstyles are sufficient for you then obviously WindowBlinds isn't for you right?

It pure market terms you have something like this:

Let's say there are 1000 people out there who use Windows XP.

And lets say 990 of them could care less about how their title bars and Start bar look.

So we're talking about 10 people who want more.

Out of those 10, 5 of them basically just want something like Windows XP's but tweaked a little bit. They want maybe a Charcoal Windows XP or a cleaner version of Windows XP.

Those 5 would probably be perfectly happy with msstyles. However, not everyone is comfortable patching system files (and you techies who want to say there's no problem doing that should see our tech support when there's a new service pack or their default Windows XP skin has gotten wiped somehow or whatever). And for them $20 isn't a big deal. (and they can get skins like these)

So of those 5, let's say 2 of them buy WindowBlinds and 3 of them decided to patch their uxtheme.dll in some way.

The remaining 5 want more than what msstyles can do. They want "gaudy" blinking Christmas lights on their title bar or a integrated roll-up button in there or fatter borders or to make Windows look just like a Mac or whatever. Those 5 end up with WindowBlinds.

But obviously if you're one of the 5 people that just want a cleaner version of Windows XP's look ro something fairly similar to it but nicer and paying $20 seems like a "waste of money" on something like this then why not just patch uxtheme.dll?

And I certainly don't object to that. What I object to is those 3 people out of a 1000 acting like the 7 people out of the thousand are stupid or weird because their tastes, which are already outside the norm by a mile (since the average Windows user is likely to think we're all weird for giving a crap about what our XP GUI looks like) are different.

One last point: I do think Kol's skins are quite original and very good. I like them a lot.

When a WindowBlinds user is talking about msstyles being mostly Luna clones, they are meaning that the of the 802 msstyles created last year on the various sites probably around 700 of them were essentailly some derivative of either Luna or OS X with the reamining 100 or so being original and some number of those being really good. Kol's stuff, for instance, is very good and even when it's a port, it's very complete and solid (such as his Panther skin).

But the typical msstyle you find on a site like ThemeXP is the default Luna, colorized to some awful color and uploaded. Sometimes a Photoshop effect has been done on the title bars (now it's bumpy. now it has a texture, etc.).

M. Seth

Dec 29 2004, 04:32

QUOTE(Ji@nBing @ Dec 28 2004, 22:28)

I completely agree with you here. It seems many of us on neowin only get our skins from here, gfxoais, ect... The places where the top and very elite styles are released. If you look at other skinning sites like themexp, most msstyles are just as bad, if not much worse than those ugly WB ones. There are a lot of really nice WB themes on wincustomize. The problem is there are also all those crappy ones, so you really have to sort through to find the nice ones. This can take a really long time and that's why I think a lot of people get turned off WB. Hopefully Frogboy can find a solution to this problem. Maybe have a seperate page for only top rated themes?
[right][snapback]585187667[/snapback][/right]

That's like having a seperate page for only top rated msstyles. How does one decide that? It's up to the user to figure which one he/she decides is great.

imtoomuch

Dec 29 2004, 04:33

QUOTE(Frogboy @ Dec 28 2004, 23:09)

(Moderator Hat On)
Just want to say how proud I am that this discussion is so constructive and so intelligent.

I am sure I can speak for many other long time Neowiners when I say that these kinds of in depth technical debates were more of a pipe dream a couple years ago.

This kind of discussion is precisely the reason why I think Neowin will eventually be one of the defacto tech web sites on the net (which it's been moving towards for a long time)
(Moderator Hat Off)
[right][snapback]585187565[/snapback][/right]

You're being sarcastic, right?

Dr.Jones

Dec 29 2004, 04:36

I agree with frogboy's thinking on that last post. Except the skins he linked to, look stupid. And over-beveled. Beveled like there is no tomorrow.

Really, people have to pay for these? Does this, in any way, mean that those skins are the best one for WB, and so good that you can in fact charge money for them???

No offense to the people who made it, but paying for that crap job is silly. IMHO <---

Ji@nBing

Dec 29 2004, 04:37

QUOTE(AthleticTrainer1981 @ Dec 29 2004, 12:32)

That's like having a seperate page for only top rated msstyles. How does one decide that? It's up to the user to figure which one he/she decides is great.
[right][snapback]585187690[/snapback][/right]

They have a rating system on wincustomize now. The page could have the skins that have the top ratings. Of course it's up to the user, but this may give them less crap to sort through, thus making them less frusterated and put off by WB. I'm not saying this is the way to solve the problem, but there IS the problem and I think it would be smart of Stardock to try and address it.

Frogboy

Dec 29 2004, 04:40

QUOTE(Dr.Jones @ Dec 29 2004, 04:36)

I agree with frogboy's thinking on that last post. Except the skins he linked to, look stupid. And over-beveled. Beveled like there is no tomorrow.

Really, people have to pay for these? Does this, in any way, mean that those skins are the best one for WB, and so good that you can in fact charge money for them???

No offense to the people who made it, but paying for that crap job is silly. IMHO <---
[right][snapback]585187708[/snapback][/right]

You do realize that your response is what creates the stereotype of the nasty msstyles user?

First off, those are skins that are free to registered users of WindowBlinds. Secondly, I certainly don't think they're ugly. Feel free to post a link to YOUR desktop so we can gasp at the majestic beauty of it. I sure know a lot of people who requested those skins be ported to msstyles.

Circaflex

Dec 29 2004, 04:40

i just want to say i switched to the newest version 4.4 and its amazing, there isnt a performance hit guys. The dogma suite is amazing superb job. Stardock amazes me, they listened to the public saying it was using too much resources and what not and heres to prove its minimal hit. I like how i can have everything themed, without modding my system files. The folders, toolbars, windows, everything is skinned. If you like eyecandy like me, and your too scared in hosing up your system files by editing shell32.dll and those things, purchase this software.

M. Seth

Dec 29 2004, 04:41

QUOTE(Frogboy @ Dec 28 2004, 22:31)

When a WindowBlinds user is talking about msstyles being mostly Luna clones, they are meaning that the of the 802 msstyles created last year on the various sites probably around 700 of them were essentailly some derivative of either Luna or OS X with the reamining 100 or so being original and some number of those being really good. Kol's stuff, for instance, is very good and even when it's a port, it's very complete and solid (such as his Panther skin).

Please don't let it be said or implied that KoL isn't a great skinner. He does great work and he should take great pride in his work.

Dr.Jones

Dec 29 2004, 04:42

here

[attachmentid=102596]

and BTW, not having a mostly beveled theme or a luna clone style atm doesn't mean I cant be entitled to an opinion or a perspective on the topic

Frogboy

Dec 29 2004, 04:42

QUOTE(Ji@nBing @ Dec 29 2004, 04:37)

They have a rating system on wincustomize now. The page could have the skins that have the top ratings. Of course it's up to the user, but this may give them less crap to sort through, thus making them less frusterated and put off by WB. I'm not saying this is the way to solve the problem, but there IS the problem and I think it would be smart of Stardock to try and address it.
[right][snapback]585187723[/snapback][/right]

Try http://www.xpthemes.com. I think only skins that have a rating of 3 stars or better are displayed there.

But eventually, on WC you will be able to set your threshold on a per library basis of what skins you see.

Frogboy

Dec 29 2004, 04:43

QUOTE(Dr.Jones @ Dec 29 2004, 04:42)

here[attachmentid=102596]
[right][snapback]585187754[/snapback][/right]

So you're basically trolling then? You're not a user of either msstyles of WindowBlinds.

Dr.Jones

Dec 29 2004, 04:45

I just got tired of the skin I had. I think it was Plastik. With msstyles. I used both, but didn't like skins for WB so uninstalled it.

M. Seth

Dec 29 2004, 04:45

QUOTE(Dr.Jones @ Dec 28 2004, 22:36)

I agree with frogboy's thinking on that last post. Except the skins he linked to, look stupid. And over-beveled. Beveled like there is no tomorrow.

Really, people have to pay for these? Does this, in any way, mean that those skins are the best one for WB, and so good that you can in fact charge money for them???

No offense to the people who made it, but paying for that crap job is silly. IMHO <---
[right][snapback]585187708[/snapback][/right]

Now we are getting back into the petty bickering over which one is better again. This is why these threads pop up every so often and then disappear....its because conversations like this turn ugly very very quickly,

memNOC

Dec 29 2004, 04:46

a couple of points i'm tired of mentioning, and won't bother explaining.

1. it's pathetic that Stardock needs to lure MSStyle users in to use their product. that's like Apple's 'Switch' campaign. "there's nothing you can't do on a Mac, that you can do on a PC" and "how can we make the competition look inferior in order for people to use our product?", by saying "i get it! let's steal our competition's userbase and include all their offered features!".

plus, you're fighting an invisible enemy. there is no commercial competition for Stardock, you're the only ones charging for something that is offered for free (yea, you and TGTSoft. hooray).

2. MSStyle>WB importing should require a license. if the author of an MSStyle skin doesn't want it to be used on WB, his artistic decision should be respected.

3. i'm happy with MSStyles: it skins everything i need it to (after all, who needs a skinned command prompt?!), and never fails to do its job (Outpost windows, some prompt windows on Java sites, some dialog boxes, etc. ALL failed to skin with various WB skins in version 4.3.. and by 'fail', i don't mean they missed some lines here and there, but everything had a freakin Win3.x look).. i don't need colorizing, i don't need to import MSStyles, and i definitelly don't need to pay for a more advanced version of uxtheme.

and please, don't tell me you still think WB takes up less resources than a patched uxtheme.dll system. that's just silly and misleading.

imtoomuch

Dec 29 2004, 04:47

QUOTE(Frogboy @ Dec 28 2004, 23:31)

But the typical msstyle you find on a site like ThemeXP is the default Luna, colorized to some awful color and uploaded. Sometimes a Photoshop effect has been done on the title bars (now it's bumpy. now it has a texture, etc.).
[right][snapback]585187684[/snapback][/right]

Such as this or this? Those are two WB skins, that you linked to, that fit that exact description!

And just because Dr.Jones said the he thinks the skins are ugly does not mean he is trolling. Since when is simply stating an opinion considered trolling?

msg43

Dec 29 2004, 04:47

QUOTE(Frogboy @ Dec 28 2004, 23:31)

Those 5 would probably be perfectly happy with msstyles. However, not everyone is comfortable patching system files (and you techies who want to say there's no problem doing that should see our tech support when there's a new service pack or their default Windows XP skin has gotten wiped somehow or whatever). And for them $20 isn't a big deal. (and they can get skins like these)

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you just posted the wrong link. Those Windowblinds themes suck!
I've used windows blinds before. It was pretty good program. I loved it when the guiolympics were around. Well I didn't know about neowin back then. I kinda use the windowblind program well. umm.... I'm not gonna say how I used it

Anywas I have seen some really good windowblind themes. I really whish they would be ported to mssstye.

I'm 13. I don't have a lot of money. I get maybe $250-$300 a year. Thats including christmas, easter, bday, etc... I won't buy something when I get something similar for free because I would rather spend my money on a new case, cpu, mobo, video game, etc...

P.S. Wincustomize is good for wallpaper

Dr.Jones

Dec 29 2004, 04:48

QUOTE(AthleticTrainer1981 @ Dec 29 2004, 00:45)

Now we are getting back into the petty bickering over which one is better again. This is why these threads pop up every so often and then disappear....its because conversations like this turn ugly very very quickly,
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the discussion was already going there when it was said that msstyle was just luna clones, remember? anyway, you focused only on that part of the whole thing that I said about WB and porting msstyles to WB.

M. Seth

Dec 29 2004, 04:48

QUOTE(Dr.Jones @ Dec 28 2004, 22:42)

here

[attachmentid=102596]

and BTW, not having a mostly beveled theme or a luna clone style atm doesn't mean I cant be entitled to an opinion or a perspective on the topic
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You are trying to prove your point but post a screen shot using windows classic?

Dr.Jones

Dec 29 2004, 04:53

QUOTE(AthleticTrainer1981 @ Dec 29 2004, 00:48)

You are trying to prove your point but post a screen shot using windows classic?
[right][snapback]585187805[/snapback][/right]

HEY ! what are YOU trying to prove with the skin (or lack of) I have ??

What does it have to do with my arguments, or yours, for that matters.
Really, you don't have to justify yourself because of what I said, and you don't have to take me down (or try to) either. Why don't YOU stay on topic too

All I meant is that WB does maybe too much for a lot of the people complaining that it costs too much (or anything at all) and also much of the skins are too ugly to be usable.

And there you are criticizing what skin I have on... What is your point exactly ?

msg43

Dec 29 2004, 04:53

OFFTOPIC: I have to say I love that wincusotmize frog. I whish there was a big fat wincustmize frog wallpaper without any type of logo or maybe a small one on the bottom

Frogboy

Dec 29 2004, 04:55

QUOTE(memNOC @ Dec 29 2004, 04:46)

a couple of points i'm tired of mentioning, and won't bother explaining.

1. it's pathetic that Stardock needs to lure MSStyle users in to use their product. that's like Apple's 'Switch' campaign. "there's nothing you can't do on a Mac, that you can do on a PC" and "how can we make the competition look inferior in order for people to use our product?", by saying "i get it! let's steal our competition's userbase and include all their offered features!".

plus, you're fighting an invisible enemy. there is no commercial competition for Stardock, you're the only ones charging for something that is offered for free (yea, you and TGTSoft. hooray).

Where do I even start?

WindowBlinds pre-exists msstyles by 3 years. Who is stealing whose user base?

Secondly, Tune-Up Utilities, StarSkin and TGT Soft are 3 (off the top of my head) who charge money for something and what exactly is the value add? They patch 1 byte of memory in uxtheme.dll.

You may not (obviously) like WindowBlinds but your argument is akin to saying that WinZip, which has existed for years, is somehow "pathetic" because they charge money and are doing something that is offered "for free".

The benefits of WindowBlinds are listed here: http://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb4/

QUOTE

2. MSStyle>WB importing should require a license. if the author of an MSStyle skin doesn't want it to be used on WB, his artistic decision should be respected.

That is an interesting argument. However, all legitimate sites I know of require the original author to indeed give their permission in order for their skin to be ported and distributed.

But there is still one problem with msstyles -- EVERY msstyles in existence is a patched version of Microsoft's luna.msstyles file. I don't think anyone has ever gotten Microsoft's license to use their format or distribute derivatives of Luna.msstyles.

And I'm not arguing that they should or need to. I am just saying that your particular argument doesn't really hold water in my opinion.

QUOTE

3. i'm happy with MSStyles: it skins everything i need it to (after all, who needs a skinned command prompt?!), and never fails to do its job (Outpost windows, some prompt windows on Java sites, some dialog boxes, etc. ALL failed to skin with various WB skins in version 4.3.. and by 'fail', i don't mean they missed some lines here and there, but everything had a freakin Win3.x look).. i don't need colorizing, i don't need to import MSStyles, and i definitelly don't need to pay for a more advanced version of uxtheme.

That's fine for you. Stick with MSStyles then. No one is suggesting you switch are they? I'm not.

As for what "never fails" to do its job I point you to exhibit A:

Desktop with msstyles applied:
http://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb4/before.jpg

Apply WB skin:
http://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb4/after.jpg

I agree there are probably some controls out there (Java comes to mind) that WindowBlinds currently doesn't skin. But it's a drop in the bucket compared to the number of thigns msstyles don't currently skin.

QUOTE

and please, don't tell me you still think WB takes up less resources than a patched uxtheme.dll system. that's just silly and misleading.

Amount of memory, GDI, User Handles, and User Objects are all measurable amounts. If item A uses less of these things than item B, it is not "misleading" or "silly" to say one uses less resources than the other.

M. Seth

Dec 29 2004, 04:57

QUOTE(memNOC @ Dec 28 2004, 22:46)

a couple of points i'm tired of mentioning, and won't bother explaining.

1. it's pathetic that Stardock needs to lure MSStyle users in to use their product. that's like Apple's 'Switch' campaign. "there's nothing you can't do on a Mac, that you can do on a PC" and "how can we make the competition look inferior in order for people to use our product?", by saying "i get it! let's steal our competition's userbase and include all their offered features!".

plus, you're fighting an invisible enemy. there is no commercial competition for Stardock, you're the only ones charging for something that is offered for free (yea, you and TGTSoft. hooray).

2. MSStyle>WB importing should require a license. if the author of an MSStyle skin doesn't want it to be used on WB, his artistic decision should be respected.

3. i'm happy with MSStyles: it skins everything i need it to (after all, who needs a skinned command prompt?!), and never fails to do its job (Outpost windows, some prompt windows on Java sites, some dialog boxes, etc. ALL failed to skin with various WB skins in version 4.3.. and by 'fail', i don't mean they missed some lines here and there, but everything had a freakin Win3.x look).. i don't need colorizing, i don't need to import MSStyles, and i definitelly don't need to pay for a more advanced version of uxtheme.

and please, don't tell me you still think WB takes up less resources than a patched uxtheme.dll system. that's just silly and misleading.

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1. Stardock worked with Microsoft to create the original uxtheme engine for XP in 2001. So they are prefectly within their rights to sell a program that does more and only cost $20.

2. Doesn't need a license becuase Stardock already has aquired the certifed for XP logo from Microsoft which actually is a license.

3. If you like msstyles and thats all, then fine don't use it.

4. It is a documented fact that WB themes uses less memory then the uxtheme engine. But who the hell cares anymore??? Modern machines come standard with anywhere from 512~1 gig of ram....what is 1-2 MB of ram to be used by a skin? That is just silly.

Ji@nBing

Dec 29 2004, 04:57

QUOTE(Frogboy @ Dec 29 2004, 12:42)

Try http://www.xpthemes.com. I think only skins that have a rating of 3 stars or better are displayed there.

But eventually, on WC you will be able to set your threshold on a per library basis of what skins you see.
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Thanks, I didn't know about that site.

Dr.Jones

Dec 29 2004, 04:59

the only technical (not artistical, because obviously you had to choose native luna on the "before" pic) difference I see is the command prompt being skinned, as opposed to not being skinned with msstyle only.

edit : and the extra titlebar button on the left side of it

msg43

Dec 29 2004, 05:00

QUOTE(Frogboy @ Dec 28 2004, 23:55)

The benefits of WindowBlinds are listed here: http://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb4/
That is an interesting argument. However, all legitimate sites I know of require the original author to indeed give their permission in order for their skin to be ported and distributed.

As for what "never fails" to do its job I point you to exhibit A:

Desktop with msstyles applied:
http://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb4/before.jpg

Apply WB skin:
http://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb4/after.jpg

[right][snapback]585187841[/snapback][/right]

wb ugly. I would chose luna anyday over that windowblind skin. Your just dissing your self froggy boy. And if you and stardock need to do all this to lure people to use windowblinds maybe its not a very good program

and yes I think there should be the authors permission. I would be really ****ed if I made some kinda something and it got ported without me knowing

KoL

Dec 29 2004, 05:02

QUOTE(Frogboy @ Dec 29 2004, 00:55)

I agree there are probably some controls out there (Java comes to mind) that WindowBlinds currently doesn't skin. But it's a drop in the bucket compared to the number of thigns msstyles don't currently skin.

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Hey Brad a question
Are you going to skin those part in the future?? I've seen some part that WB doesn't skin but I dont remember right now which one.

Frogboy

Dec 29 2004, 05:02

QUOTE(Dr.Jones @ Dec 29 2004, 04:59)

the only technical (not artistical, because obviously you had to choose native luna on the "before" pic) difference I see is the command prompt being skinned, as opposed to not being skinned with msstyle only.

edit : and the extra titlebar button on the left side of it
[right][snapback]585187863[/snapback][/right]

Look closer then. Most of the controls (scrollbars, check boxes, radio buttons, push buttons, etc.) are not skinned. They're the default Windows 95 controls.

What some people don't understand is the way XP's skinning works:

When you run an msstyles, besides the theme service running, a process called uxtheme.dll gets attached to your processes and it then intercepts the painting calls a program makes to the OS and IF (and it's a big IF) the program is theme aware, then its controls get skinned otherwise they have the "Windows classic" controls.

There are a handful of things that WindowBlinds won't skin (JAVA consoles for instance). But by and large, it can skin nearly every control there is whether it's theme aware or not.

M. Seth

Dec 29 2004, 05:02

QUOTE(Dr.Jones @ Dec 28 2004, 22:59)

the only technical (not artistical, because obviously you had to choose native luna on the "before" pic) difference I see is the command prompt being skinned, as opposed to not being skinned with msstyle only.

edit : and the extra titlebar button on the left side of it
[right][snapback]585187863[/snapback][/right]

dialog boxes, logoff/shutdown boxes, toolbars, animation boxes just to name a few.

If WB doesn't float your boat then by all means don't use it.

Frogboy

Dec 29 2004, 05:04

QUOTE(KoL @ Dec 29 2004, 05:02)

Hey Brad a question
Are you going to skin those part in the future?? I've seen some part that WB doesn't skin but I dont remember right now which one.
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Not sure. We're keeping an eye to see if JAVA remains popular or not. We'll probably end up looking to see what happens in Longhorn. It is telling that Java windows are fundamentally different than regular windows in the first place (i.e. WindowBlinds doesn't skin JAVA consoles because they don't appear as regular Windows whereas msstyles skins them because Microsoft literally put in a IF JAVA Window THEN Skin It code in).

Circaflex

Dec 29 2004, 05:06

QUOTE(msg43 @ Dec 28 2004, 21:00)

wb ugly. I would chose luna anyday over that windowblind skin. Your just dissing your self froggy boy. And if you and stardock need to do all this to lure people to use windowblinds maybe its not a very good program

and yes I think there should be the authors permission. I would be really ****ed if I made some kinda something and it got ported without me knowing
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youd rather use that ugly luna over that theme? If you didnt know it was wb im pretty sure youd use it. Your just downplaying the whole windowsblinds program, not the theme.

KoL

Dec 29 2004, 05:07

QUOTE(Frogboy @ Dec 29 2004, 01:04)

Not sure. We're keeping an eye to see if JAVA remains popular or not. We'll probably end up looking to see what happens in Longhorn. It is telling that Java windows are fundamentally different than regular windows in the first place (i.e. WindowBlinds doesn't skin JAVA consoles because they don't appear as regular Windows whereas msstyles skins them because Microsoft literally put in a IF JAVA Window THEN Skin It code in).
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ooh cool, thanks for the info

Dr.Jones

Dec 29 2004, 05:10

QUOTE(Frogboy @ Dec 29 2004, 01:02)

Look closer then. Most of the controls (scrollbars, check boxes, radio buttons, push buttons, etc.) are not skinned. They're the default Windows 95 controls.

What some people don't understand is the way XP's skinning works:

When you run an msstyles, besides the theme service running, a process called uxtheme.dll gets attached to your processes and it then intercepts the painting calls a program makes to the OS and IF (and it's a big IF) the program is theme aware, then its controls get skinned otherwise they have the "Windows classic" controls.

There are a handful of things that WindowBlinds won't skin (JAVA consoles for instance). But by and large, it can skin nearly every control there is whether it's theme aware or not.
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QUOTE(AthleticTrainer1981 @ Dec 29 2004, 01:02)

dialog boxes, logoff/shutdown boxes, toolbars, animation boxes just to name a few.

If WB doesn't float your boat then by all means don't use it.
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well duh : try with a whole msstyle with shellstyle. That would be a better comparison and would thin out your list of differences. But my point never was that msstyle is better or equal to the WB engine. If you failed to understand that yet, I quit.
Well I quit anyway, it is past midnight here..

Ji@nBing

Dec 29 2004, 05:16

Here's another "ugly" one

Frogboy

Dec 29 2004, 05:25

QUOTE(msg43 @ Dec 29 2004, 05:00)

wb ugly. I would chose luna anyday over that windowblind skin. Your just dissing your self froggy boy. And if you and stardock need to do all this to lure people to use windowblinds maybe its not a very good program

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Ironically, the skin in that screenshot is made by Bant, one of the top msstyes authors.

Ji@nBing

Dec 29 2004, 05:28

QUOTE(Frogboy @ Dec 29 2004, 13:25)

Ironically, the skin in that screenshot is made by Bant, one of the top msstyes authors.
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Also ironically, there have been many many requests for that one to be ported to msstyles

Frogboy

Dec 29 2004, 05:30

QUOTE

well duh : try with a whole msstyle with shellstyle. That would be a better comparison and would thin out your list of differences. But my point never was that msstyle is better or equal to the WB engine. If you failed to understand that yet, I quit.

I am not sure we're understanding each other. It's not the skin that determines what gets skinned. Picking some wonderful looking msstyle wouldn't have changed the fact that most of the controls in that screenshot would look like Windows 95.

Just as you don't like bevels, many WindowBlinds users find it very jarring to suddenly see a bunch of Windows 95 controls. It's very unpolished.

I would run Luna via WindowBlinds rather than the default Luna simply for no other reason than I don't like loading programs that partially look like they're from 1995.

Or consider this: In Windows XP, the progress animations (copy, move, etc.) are the same animations from the Chicago beta of 1994. If you run WindowBlinds, you can easily change that.

What I'm trying to get at is that different people have different issues that they want addressed. When I am running an OS in 2004, I don't want to have pieces of it that look 10 years old. I want the WHOLE thing to look consistently new. Not certain pieces.

And soon we'll have Longhorn and it'll all start over again.

memNOC

Dec 29 2004, 05:35

QUOTE(msg43 @ Dec 29 2004, 01:00)

wb ugly. I would chose luna anyday over that windowblind skin. Your just dissing your self froggy boy. And if you and stardock need to do all this to lure people to use windowblinds maybe its not a very good program

and yes I think there should be the authors permission. I would be really ****ed if I made some kinda something and it got ported without me knowing
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umm dude... that's Bant's Ciela. one of the handful of skins actually worth installing WB for.

QUOTE(Frogboy)

WindowBlinds doesn't skin JAVA consoles because they don't appear as regular Windows whereas msstyles skins them because Microsoft literally put in a IF JAVA Window THEN Skin It code in).

am i missing something here?

first of all, if it's true the WB engine is the succesor of MSStyle, shouldn't all those features already be supported? if not, did you take them out on purpose? if so, why?

and -- if you could -- other than the command prompt (and Win3.x programs), show me another instance where uxtheme.dll fails to skin? the point i'm trying to make, is when uxtheme fails to skin an application, it applies the Windows size/color/etc and basically makes it look like a 3DCC window that follows the same pattern. with WB, the part that didn't skin looks like it came from Win3.x. and i wouldn't know if it's been fixed in 4.4 (you'll obviously tell me it has), but in the last version i encountered these glitches way too often around Windows.

Frogboy

Dec 29 2004, 06:22

QUOTE(memNOC @ Dec 29 2004, 05:35)

and -- if you could -- other than the command prompt (and Win3.x programs), show me another instance where uxtheme.dll fails to skin? the point i'm trying to make, is when uxtheme fails to skin an application, it applies the Windows size/color/etc and basically makes it look like a 3DCC window that follows the same pattern. with WB, the part that didn't skin looks like it came from Win3.x. and i wouldn't know if it's been fixed in 4.4 (you'll obviously tell me it has), but in the last version i encountered these glitches way too often around Windows.
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I provided a screenshot showing plenty of Windows XP programs that aren't skinned via uxtheme.

Adobe Acrobat reader not high profile enough?

Non-theme aware programs look like Windows 95. They're "classic". I.e. unskinned. I'm really surprised you haven't noticed this, this isn't a rare occurence. Many good programs are fully theme aware. But many others are not.

I'm not sure what you mean by 3DCC? You saw the Luna screenshot, those aren't obscure programs. They are only partially skinned by msstyles. With WindowBlinds, they're fully skinned.

gnubugx

Dec 29 2004, 06:27

Actually, I would never port my themes over to windowblinds, stardock is a joke and I would never do anything that might help them screw over people or waste people's hard earned money. This comes from years of bull**** stardock has done thru the years, and it's never gonna happen. First of all the bull**** they speak is just that, bull****. Windowblinds is not faster then the windows theme system (talk bull**** all you want, but guess what, Microsoft created the theme system and NO COMPANY is going to implement the skinning faster then the very company whom has coded the theme system in the OS. The patch stardock keeps refering to is a signature patch, it allows a non microsoft signed theme to be applied. Nothing more.) By the way stardock, it would be nice to tell everyone that WindowBlinds REMOVES the windows theming system and applies the classic win9x to entire system, then loads the windowblinds bloatware to even begin to apply the theme to the classic win9x windows. Thats cutting edge there, remove the theme system, fire up a bloated memory application, then apply the theme throughout the system, slow your system down just tad, have all theme ****ups show up as win9x looking garbage, and your all set...Wow impressive you dicks...

Disclaimer: I hate stardock because they whine and bitch and moan and throw F.U.D around like no other company. I mean these people got all mad and bitched and started bull**** ona company whom never said anything bad towards them, hell they didnt even know or care who you were. Stardock was mad and crying because they got more press coverage when they decided to move Konfabulator over to windows because they got pushed out by Apple. They even put hateful and F.U.D on thier website because they were mad that the press was reporting Konfabulator for windows and got way more coverage then their serveral year old product did when it came out.

There was also the amazing time when StyleXP came out and they got all mad and ****ed because people were buying it instead of windowblinds. They got mad because here they had a product that was a big bloated piece of crap (at the time, windowblinds was horrible piece of junk that at any given moment would screw your system up to the point of reloading (trust me on this one, I know maybe 50 people whom had to reload during this time period. Not once also, when windowsblinds would crap out, boy did it crap out!!) And the reason they got mad? because StyleXP did it using the MS theming engine. Load the patch toallow the non microsoft theme to be applied, and your done. They went everywhere they could talking $hit, Skinz.org, deskmod, deviantart, everywhere, spouting bull and cry like little babies. The bottom line is stardock ony cares about the mighty $$$. Pay your money and then move back to the end of the line so they can **** on you and laugh about it. Lose your registration Key? Well, your almost done for, because they will just tell you to purchase again, get screwed over by the purchasing when the rules on upgrades where good and sane? well, your outta luck. They can change the rules at anytime, no matter what was said when you purchased, you will have to purchase again.

My whole point is, I would never port a damn thing over to windowblinds, I would never help your company and I am gladly waiting for longhorn to dwindle your company down and smile as you lose $$$.

Screw you Stardock and hope you all die a miserable deaths...

Frogboy

Dec 29 2004, 06:40

Such eloquence.

Pity there is almost nothing true about what gnu just wrote.

(Moderator Hat On)
BTW, hate speech and personal attacks are not acceptable behavior on Neowin.net. Consider yourself warned.
(Moderator Hat Off)

Crayon

Dec 29 2004, 06:47

QUOTE(gnubugx @ Dec 29 2004, 06:27)

Actually, I would never port my themes over to windowblinds, stardock is a joke and I would never do anything that might help them screw over people or waste people's hard earned money. This comes from years of bull**** stardock has done thru the years, and it's never gonna happen. First of all the bull**** they speak is just that, bull****. Windowblinds is not faster then the windows theme system (talk bull**** all you want, but guess what, Microsoft created the theme system and NO COMPANY is going to implement the skinning faster then the very company whom has coded the theme system in the OS. The patch stardock keeps refering to is a signature patch, it allows a non microsoft signed theme to be applied. Nothing more.) By the way stardock, it would be nice to tell everyone that WindowBlinds REMOVES the windows theming system and applies the classic win9x to entire system, then loads the windowblinds bloatware to even begin to apply the theme to the classic win9x windows. Thats cutting edge there, remove the theme system, fire up a bloated memory application, then apply the theme throughout the system, slow your system down just tad, have all theme ****ups show up as win9x looking garbage, and your all set...Wow impressive you dicks...
Disclaimer: I hate stardock because they whine and bitch and moan and throw F.U.D around like no other company. I mean these people got all mad and bitched and started bull**** ona company whom never said anything bad towards them, hell they didnt even know or care who you were. Stardock was mad and crying because they got more press coverage when they decided to move Konfabulator over to windows because they got pushed out by Apple. They even put hateful and F.U.D on thier website because they were mad that the press was reporting Konfabulator for windows and got way more coverage then their serveral year old product did when it came out.

There was also the amazing time when StyleXP came out and they got all mad and ****ed because people were buying it instead of windowblinds. They got mad because here they had a product that was a big bloated piece of crap (at the time, windowblinds was horrible piece of junk that at any given moment would screw your system up to the point of reloading (trust me on this one, I know maybe 50 people whom had to reload during this time period. Not once also, when windowsblinds would crap out, boy did it crap out!!) And the reason they got mad? because StyleXP did it using the MS theming engine. Load the patch toallow the non microsoft theme to be applied, and your done. They went everywhere they could talking $hit, Skinz.org, deskmod, deviantart, everywhere, spouting bull and cry like little babies. The bottom line is stardock ony cares about the mighty $$$. Pay your money and then move back to the end of the line so they can **** on you and laugh about it. Lose your registration Key? Well, your almost done for, because they will just tell you to purchase again, get screwed over by the purchasing when the rules on upgrades where good and sane? well, your outta luck. They can change the rules at anytime, no matter what was said when you purchased, you will have to purchase again.

My whole point is, I would never port a damn thing over to windowblinds, I would never help your company and I am gladly waiting for longhorn to dwindle your company down and smile as you lose $$$.

Screw you Stardock and hope you all die a miserable deaths...
[right][snapback]585188338[/snapback][/right]

wow, was about to try and point out each retarded remark in this post until i keep getting lost in every sentence because i am losing track of which retarded point i am on. how is it possible to be this ignorant?

but i must ask, what do you possibly have that you would think people would want to be ported to WB?

futb0l

Dec 29 2004, 07:03

QUOTE(gnubugx @ Dec 29 2004, 17:27)

Actually, I would never port my themes over to windowblinds, stardock is a joke and I would never do anything that might help them screw over people or waste people's hard earned money. This comes from years of bull**** stardock has done thru the years, and it's never gonna happen. First of all the bull**** they speak is just that, bull****. Windowblinds is not faster then the windows theme system (talk bull**** all you want, but guess what, Microsoft created the theme system and NO COMPANY is going to implement the skinning faster then the very company whom has coded the theme system in the OS. The patch stardock keeps refering to is a signature patch, it allows a non microsoft signed theme to be applied. Nothing more.) By the way stardock, it would be nice to tell everyone that WindowBlinds REMOVES the windows theming system and applies the classic win9x to entire system, then loads the windowblinds bloatware to even begin to apply the theme to the classic win9x windows. Thats cutting edge there, remove the theme system, fire up a bloated memory application, then apply the theme throughout the system, slow your system down just tad, have all theme ****ups show up as win9x looking garbage, and your all set...Wow impressive you dicks...
Disclaimer: I hate stardock because they whine and bitch and moan and throw F.U.D around like no other company. I mean these people got all mad and bitched and started bull**** ona company whom never said anything bad towards them, hell they didnt even know or care who you were. Stardock was mad and crying because they got more press coverage when they decided to move Konfabulator over to windows because they got pushed out by Apple. They even put hateful and F.U.D on thier website because they were mad that the press was reporting Konfabulator for windows and got way more coverage then their serveral year old product did when it came out.

There was also the amazing time when StyleXP came out and they got all mad and ****ed because people were buying it instead of windowblinds. They got mad because here they had a product that was a big bloated piece of crap (at the time, windowblinds was horrible piece of junk that at any given moment would screw your system up to the point of reloading (trust me on this one, I know maybe 50 people whom had to reload during this time period. Not once also, when windowsblinds would crap out, boy did it crap out!!) And the reason they got mad? because StyleXP did it using the MS theming engine. Load the patch toallow the non microsoft theme to be applied, and your done. They went everywhere they could talking $hit, Skinz.org, deskmod, deviantart, everywhere, spouting bull and cry like little babies. The bottom line is stardock ony cares about the mighty $$$. Pay your money and then move back to the end of the line so they can **** on you and laugh about it. Lose your registration Key? Well, your almost done for, because they will just tell you to purchase again, get screwed over by the purchasing when the rules on upgrades where good and sane? well, your outta luck. They can change the rules at anytime, no matter what was said when you purchased, you will have to purchase again.

My whole point is, I would never port a damn thing over to windowblinds, I would never help your company and I am gladly waiting for longhorn to dwindle your company down and smile as you lose $$$.

Screw you Stardock and hope you all die a miserable deaths...
[right][snapback]585188338[/snapback][/right]

Man, if you don't like Stardock then that's fine - no need to curse them. I've never tried Stardock in a computer with a good VGA card before, in my old PC - windowblinds did slow down the PC by just a little bit, a lot of themes in WB suck IMO, and Neowin is more of a .msstyle community - which is why I use .msstyle.

Anyways, hopefully when the .msstyle is ported to wb, it will be faster, even if it's a little bit faster.

ciaran00

Dec 29 2004, 07:08

Christ these threads never let up.

KoL... don't let anyone tell you you're not great. Your themes rock, man.

I had a question for WB users. How can one skin the classic logon with WB? With themes turned off and WB installed, the logon skin looks like classic!

ciaran

nkj

Dec 29 2004, 08:26

Both Window Blinds and msstyles are good. choosing which one to use is upto the user. Window Blinds definetly skins more parts of windows and it does give themers more room creativity. This however does not mean that the skin is gonna be highly usable. for eg some of the new themes for window blinds have the caption buttons at the bottom of window . this might look nice and different but is surely gonna take some getting used to. As to which program takes less memory . WHO CARES . As long as the difference does not hamper you from using your other programs .

Window Blinds is gr8 product i have used it back in 2000 and i liked it. As for Stardock as a company its pretty good and there products are quite nice . IconPackager is the best one of the lot , thats my personal opinion and you are free to think differently .
(Frogboy anythign new with next version of Iconpackager?)

When i swithched to XP i started using visual styles and the only reason being Kol's themes were only available for visual style format. (SS Studio for example).

As for window blinds themes being bloated , thats not the case all the time an example being vector cell by b0se . I would like to see Stardock have some wb skins made by some of the gr8 msstlyle skinners like Kol, b0se and Bant (If i missed someone i m really sorry).

I like the idea MSStyle to WB porter thingy but it would be great if there was something similar to convert WB themes to MSStyles cause there are definetly some Wb themes i would like to try escpecially vector cell (Please Please b0se port it to MSStyle) .
Rant : The thing i do hate (u might like it and you have full right to do so) the most abt wb themes is that they skin the toolbar buttons and the file menu in explorer and have them raised which really looks cluttered. And why don't WB authors have cleartype on while taking screenshots of themes .

BTW i am a msstyle user (currently have Kol's Sustenance theme applied its amazing) and like it . My freind use WindowBlinds and he likes it . Its a matter of choice and personal taste.

U might disagree with what i said above and feel free to do so.