This comes from the Journal of Haavard, one of the more well known personalities from Opera Software. He works in the Q&A Department, and wrote this in his Journal (blog).

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Monday, 25 April 2005 10:10:00

Is Opera turning into Firefox?

"I remember Opera before it became a "suite of applications"

This is a quote from a recent blog post by Mozilla's Asa, where he fondly remembers the days when Opera was only a browser, and where he talks more about the UI simplification in Opera 8.

The problem is that Opera has never been just a browser. Even Opera 3 had a built-in newsreader, and a send-only e-mail client.

In the same blog post, he writes about Opera 8's simplified user interface, and how Opera is starting to look more like Firefox. Now, this would indicate that somehow, Opera follows Firefox. But Firefox itself was actually an attempt to make a simplified "IE-like" user interface, so is he really saying that Opera is looking more like IE now? That Opera is following IE's lead?

We all know how bloggers love to spin things in certain ways, and it is interesting to note how Mozilla's products seem to "break new ground", according to the Mozilla Organization. And by all means, Firefox is a nice little browser, even though it doesn't quite have the smooth integration of features that Opera does. It's great that there is another alternative that people can use instead of Internet Explorer, and the fact that they released version 1.0 at a time when "everyone" was trying to get away from IE led to a lot of press for alternative browsers, including Opera. But when it all comes down to it, how much new ground does Mozilla really break?

Indeed, last year I wrote a journal entry about some rather interesting claims about new features in Mozilla's embedded browser, Minimo, and I pointed out that even though it sounded like Minimo was breaking new ground, Opera had been doing all those things for a long time. Clearly, the Minimo developer who was interviewed knew about Opera - he even made claims about Opera's portability, which was apparently worse than Mozilla's, even though I doubt that he actually has seen enough of Opera's source code to make an informed statement, and even though Opera is available for a lot more mobile operating systems than Minimo. Why, then, did he seem to ignore the fact that all those "fantastic" things Minimo was almost doing were already done by Opera?

And now we return to Firefox, the browser that Opera is apparently looking more like. It would be interesting to take a look at what Firefox has to offer compared to Opera, and see if some of those things were done by Opera first, or perhaps even invented by Opera... And if this were the case, would it not be more accurate to say that Firefox is becoming more like Opera?

Here goes:

- "Popup Blocking
Stop annoying popup ads in their tracks with Firefox's built in popup blocker."

If I am not mistaken, Opera was the first browser with a built-in popup blocker. It used to be called "allow pages to open new windows" or something like that, way before the popup insanity that faces the Web today.

- "Tabbed Browsing
View more than one web page in a single window with this time saving feature. Open links in the background so that they're ready for viewing when you're ready to read them. Find out more..."

Opera started off as MDI, and had tabs ages before Mozilla.

- "Privacy and Security
Built with your security in mind, Firefox keeps your computer safe from malicious spyware by not loading harmful ActiveX controls. A comprehensive set of privacy tools keep your online activity your business."

So not loading ActiveX is a feature? Ok, Opera has not loaded ActiveX controls for ages

- "Smarter Search
Google Search is built right into the toolbar, and there is a plethora of other search tools including Smart Keywords (type "dict <word>" in the Location bar), and the new Find bar (which finds text as you type without covering up anything)."

Another Opera invention? Opera was the first browser to include the now famous search field to the right of the URL field, as far as I know.

- "Live Bookmarks
RSS integration lets you read the latest news headlines and read updates to your favorite sites that are syndicated. Find out more..."

Yes, Opera has had built-in newsfeeds support for quite some time

- "Hassle-Free Downloading
Files you download are automatically saved to your Desktop so they're easy to find. Fewer prompts mean files download quicker."

Like Opera's quick download feature?

- "Fits Like a Glove
Simple and intuitive, yet fully featured, Firefox has all the functions you're used to - Bookmarks, History, Full Screen, Text Zooming to make pages with small text easier to read, etc."

Most of those are already available in Internet Explorer. Opera offers a lot more built-in that you need extensions (third party software) for in Firefox.

- "S, M, L or XL—It's Your Choice
Firefox is the most customizable browser on the planet. Customize your toolbars to add additional buttons, install new Extensions that add new features, add new Themes to browse with style, and use the adaptive search system to allow you to search an infinite number of engines. Firefox is as big or small as you want."

I think Internet Explorer did this years ago. Opera, too, does most of this, and it can install themes/skins without restarting, too

- "Setup's a Snap
At only 4.7MB (Windows), Firefox takes just a few minutes to download over a slow connection and seconds over a fast connection. The installer gets you set up quickly, and the new Easy Transition system imports all of your settings - Favorites, passwords and other data from Internet Explorer and other browsers - so you can start surfing right away."

I must say that Opera had the "small download" thing going long before Firefox did. And even today, the full-featured Opera suite is a smaller download than Firefox, a browser with a limited feature set (where, admittedly, most features seem to be features that Opera already had).

- "A Developer's Best Friend
Firefox comes with a standard set of developer tools including a powerful JavaScript and CSS error/warning console, and an optional Document Inspector that gives detailed insight about your pages."

Opera does have a JavaScript console, but the Document Inspector is probably a Firefox first. Good on ya, Firefox!

- "Read Mail—Not Spam
Thunderbird is the perfect complement to Firefox."

And Thunderbird adds 5.8 MB to the already-larger-than-Opera download size, making it more than twice as big! Sorry, could not resist

Thunderbird also recently introduced "virtual folders", after Opera's database-like approach to sorting e-mail. Gmail also followed Opera's lead.

Also, rumours have it that there are even more features on the way in Firefox 1.1. Will they, yet again, follow Opera's lead and introduce more of Opera's innovations into their own browser?

Time will tell. You can all guess what I'm thinking




Source

So what? its not like you can make a browser with no similarities to another. "uh oh, opera has tabs already, i guess we cant implement them " or "opera has a URL bar..... dammit johnson that was our best idea yet! "

Got a chuckle ou tof me


The point of this is more that Firefox claims them as innovative new features.

dead on.

Firefox invented mosaic a while back so it's only likely that other companies will copy their ideas. TheLittleKid says firefox has been around a long time and will be here for alot longer then you can even think of....longer than it takes to milk a cow on a cold siberian night. Booyah

*cough* avoiding the point there

i really love the "find as you go" feature in firefox and opera ( http://tntluoma.com/opera/lover/6/day13-inlinefind/ ) but why didn't he clarify who did it first?

Mozilla has always tried to take credit for innovating features even though the majority of their features were simply copied. Does anyone remember their Firefox vs Opera comparison where they completely lied about Opera's capabilities? That was funny, they were caught for lying and took the page down to remove some of their lies; then they were caught again for lying on the "fixed" comparison and they took it offline again... I haven't seen it since. Then there was the Minimo comments that were mentioned above, trying to claim how portable Opera is even though they've never seen the source code. Mozilla has introduced more FUD than innovation.

Or they are just telling the visitor about the features that are in Firefox, something everybody does. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not like they are claiming they invented all that stuff.

Actually, IE is the one that used the Mosaic code-base. Firefox is essentially a descendent of Netscape, using much much of the same code (90%+).

You know, I used to respect Asa. He seemed like a level-headed guy, and despite working for Mozilla, rather unbias.

As of late though, he has been posting a LOT about Opera, and almost none of it good. I posted about it in his blog, asking him why. What's the point? Usually it's a sign of feeling threatened. He's not responding to anyone, but the one bringing this **** up. He says things about Opera that are sometimes untrue, misleading, and make Opera look bad.

In short, he's turning into an annoying Firefox zealot and an idiot.

Why should I care who invented what first? That's like saying car companys copied Ford by using a production line. Does that mean Ford is the l33t?

Sorry for being an @$$.

Flame me if you wish cause i got nun-chunk skills , and computer hacking skills...

It's not about who invented what. It's about not trying to pretend like you invented it when you clear did not, or that something you add is "ground-breaking when competitors have had it already.

Those saying "new" features when they actually are old is just a marketing strategy in an bid to attract users to using either browsers.

They do say what their browsers do in a surprising way that will make visitors enger to download it and install it.

Can't agree more I stopped reading his blogs since the time he posted an article attempting to analyze Opera's UI. Meh, next.

ROFL


Welcome to the world of marketing spin.

Is funny.

BEt alot of the FF fanboys didnt know alot bout where these ideas came from etc etc.

They do, and they get extensions to immitate some more of operas features, yet they still call opera bloated

I know

And as far as space on the hd is concerns, is far more space hungry then Opera. Places i think a profile folder in the hidden Application Data folder(havent got it installed so cant remember too well, plus alcohol reduces ability to remember), and so with all the extensions and stuff, uses up so much space.

Anyhoos.

hahahaha. nice remark.
Well nothing wrong implementing good ideas from the competition.

Of course, most of FireFox features was stolen from Opera. But FireFox propagandists call these features "innovation" and "revolutionary". It's 100% pure lie and cheap propaganda.

The majority of Firefox features are taken from the Mozilla Suite (seamonkey), becuase it it basically just the browser portion of it.

however, some feature from Opera were introduced into Firefox because they are simply good features! (e.g. the fastback feature now in the trunk)

Firefox become like Opera?

Nah, Firefox is actually good.

Ouch.

Firefox has some cool features that may be small, but made me pick it over Opera. Opera is still an awesome browser though

Very true, but when I do a clean install of Opera it takes like 7-10 min to get it the way I like it. It's very visually bloated on first start up. On the contrary FF takes me aprox 1 min to get it the way I like it from a clean install and thats including extension downloads and configurations.

I think there can be fanboys on both sides. Opera has done many gr8 innovations and Firefox has the Gecko layout engine. I mean all this flaming each other is not gonna g anywhere. I think most people still use IE and I think thats what ppl have to fight with.

All those IE users have to be made to realize that they have many security holes, and this makes not only them as suffers. The entire web suffers coz they then become playtoys for ppl who wanna do DDOS !!

It's no different than Microsoft copying from Apple. Mac users have been calling it for years, and all people say is "Oh, stop your whining." How about Opera users just do the same thing and stop the whining. It's not like it's going to lead to any justice being done.

Ya when its ( FF ) finally loaded after going and getting a beer.
I would use IE before FF, I have been sprung on Opera's speed, stability and functionality for a long time. ( Got me away from FF , and the new FF's are just getting worse )

And whomever said the FF / Moz guys invented mosaic. Thats not even remotely correct, it was developed at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. FAR FAR before moz/fox was even thought of.
Looks like FF turns its users into trolls with dilusions of grandeur now to0.

The ONLY reason Opera isnt more popular, is because it isnt free.

Im a web developer. Opera is a royal pain to work with.

Fix it. Now.

It's not about Mozilla copying Opera. It's about Mozilla copying Opera(or others), reinventing the wheel and boasting that's THE MOZILLA INNOVATION AND INVENTION.


well, describe some problems if you dare. Or just STFU if you can't name any and are spreading FUD.

firefox is a very good web browser and I won't be suprisee if opera was copying them

Even if Opera and Firefox have the same features, Firefox is the only one of the two that does them correctly, every time. I purchased Opera 8.0 on the day of release, that thing is ****ty to say the least.

-More unexplained rendering errors.
-Gmail will load, but it isn't displayed.
-Random crashing.
-Slowing browsing, so much for being the fastest browser.


Firefox > Opera

I tried to get opera looking like firefox, because my firefox folders are filled with spy/adware and crap, infact, my whole pc is filled with it and it all comes in through firefox!

anyway,
Opera: hard to get used to and it has far to many features
Firefox: great to use, my favourite, but sadly i find it MUCH less secure....

as for opera turning into firefox.... I hope it does! Firefox with opera security... that would be meaty

You know what? That's funny because I, too, am a web developer and coder and I can say that Opera is equally great with Firefox in terms of displaying, just that Opera draws faster. Don't know what you're talking about.

There are just two problems with Opera :
1. Stop making it a suite of applications or make both - Opera suite and Opera standard
2. The GUI... too complicated (they are working on it, I know), the banner (that's a tough one to deal with for them...) and those buttons who turns yellow... they're actually quite ugly. I feel bad to say that though because it's a nice effect. The layout is nice though, but windows xp standard would be better. They should just use the standard windows XP GUI. The only applications that I know of and that are nice with non-windows GUI are Windows Media Player 8+ and Winamp5.

Ya the weird rendering sometimes occurs. I get it too, but that happens in FF as well.

Gmail loads fine for me and works fine. Try clearing cache?

Random crashing. Ya, it is weird, I don't know why it happens, but the auto load previously opened windows helps a lot. Compared to FF, when FF crashes, and it does..I have to reopen the websites manually =\.

Opera doesn't seem to be a slow browser. Infact, on my computer, it is definitely faster than FF.

The Biggest Two Reasons people choose FireFox over Opera is because
1. Its free (open source)
2. Its Much more customizeable than Opera will ever be

You have User.js Chrome you have extentions. Not everyone uses RSS and i don't think its neccessary personally however if i really wanted it i could of installed an extention that would allow me to use. Thus making Firefox more customizable.

To change one thing in opera is close to impossible for example i couldnt even install a simply plugin. But with mozilla the switch to it was easy.

I wouldn't say Opera sucks for my dad uses opera and i use firefox.

Please dont call me a troll for i use both, and IMO firefox better.



Back to Topic. It doesn't matter who invented this or came up with the idea. Its like saying Bill gates made the first computer why are other companies making them?

Kind of stupid.

What simple plugins can't you install on Opera?

If they install and work on Firefox just copy the dll's over the the Opera Plugins folder, they will more then likely work.

I use to be an avid IE user, but got sick of having to run spyware cleaners after every session, Firefox for me personally does cut tons of this out, and Opera... simply have no need to pay out cash for something if Firefox does the job fine, I may consider grabbing a pirate copy of Opera to try it out in all it's glory first, but no way i'm forking out money to find I want to stick with Firefox anyhow.... and the BS propaganda people have been whining about, I have never even paid attention to it, I simply tried Firefox for myself and prefered, quality is in the product itself.

Opera loses tons of marks simply because it isn't free, and that's before I have even used it.

Instead of warezing it, have a look Here



That's what i did - i'm now a valid Opera customer, all you need to do is get 250 people to click on a link, proxy's work too

have you read this thread?

Gee I sure hope not. I like my Firefox without ads!

I can't understand how Opera can cause more problems for web developers than Firefox; last time I checked Opera was the most standards-compliant browser.

If Opera has an answer to adblock and FoxyTunes, then I'd switch. Opera also doesn't render ESPN.com right for me most of the time, while IE/FF do it fine.

what's it take to get something new to argue about? Everything i read in this forum is rehashed over and over again in different posts....

CSS positioning is bad in Opera, infact, i would say that IE is better than Opera for rendering.

This should be titled,.
IS FF TURNING INTO IE :
http://secunia.com/advisories/15292/

1. Making versions for separate audiences would be pointless. Mail, RSS, and IRC altogether is around 100kb. Not only that but those options are disabled by default until you want to use them. No benefit besides 100kb less to download and more confusion from normal users.

2. The user interface is somewhat over-complicated at places, but they are working on it. While I also think that the Windows theme is great on XP, you have to remember that Opera would be butt-ugly in other Windows versions.



In regards to commonly-used lanuages like CSS and XHTML in the Windows world, Opera is better, in my experience.



Could you post some links to these positioning problems?

I've used positioning, floating, and :hover together multiple times and I have never come across any rendering bugs. With only CSS I am able to create multi-level dropdown menu systems which are relatively positioned and floated to make the menus stack on-top of their containers (covering 2px of the right side of the parent menu) and also show arrows to the right of the menu-item text by floating generated content which has a background of an arrow image. I can do all of that without encountering bugs so I doubt that you have found any bugs in positioning, if you really have then I'll submit a bug report.

That's funny...it's the exact opposite for me. In Firefox, I have to search for all the extensions I had (and REdownload them; they're not kept in a zip somewhere for transfering them). Also, compatibility between versions is poor, especially when an extension you use doesn't really get updated; this goes for themes, too.

But with Opera, it's just a matter of copying a few lines from my toolbar INI file, and importing bookmarks. And most Opera 7 skins work pretty good with Opera 8.

Ramble won't be able to provide any examples. He's simply spreading FUD.

Ramble, I suggest you stop talking **** about Opera and saying it can't do this and that, without having something to back yourself up.

Firefox is a browser. Mosaic was a browser, and it was around ages before Firefox. Opera was around back when Mosaic was around, too.

Anyway, looks like Firefox is gaining more features and bloat in 1.1, 1.5 and 2.0...



Opera did, of course



Did you even bother to try Opera 8 before posting about it?



Totally, completely, and utterly pointless. The mail client and other stuff is hidden until you create an account, so the point is moot.



Too complicated? Opera has a couple of more buttons than Firefox visible, and fewer top level menus! That's not "too complicated", unless you think Firefox is complicated.

The thread topic is a bit funny, looking at Firefox's recent additions of the Opera-style fast back/forward and the SVG support.

So I guess it works in both ways. Maybe one day they'll merge into a true IE Killer, marketed by Google with the name... Gbrowser!

heh

Anyway, re Opera's "complicated UI", I think that's mostly a bad rumor it got from the 7.x versions. The current Opera 8 one is as simple as the Firefox UI to me. It's not a very bloated browser either; actually it has a smaller disk and memory footprint than Firefox.