+Frank B. Subscriber² Posted September 22, 2011 Subscriber² Share Posted September 22, 2011 Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC Puzzling results from Cern, home of the LHC, have confounded physicists - because it appears subatomic particles have exceeded the speed of light. Neutrinos sent through the ground from Cern toward the Gran Sasso laboratory 732km away seemed to show up a tiny fraction of a second early. The result - which threatens to upend a century of physics - will be put online for scrutiny by other scientists. In the meantime, the group says it is being very cautious about its claims. "We tried to find all possible explanations for this," said report author Antonio Ereditato of the Opera collaboration. "We wanted to find a mistake - trivial mistakes, more complicated mistakes, or nasty effects - and we didn't," he told BBC News. "When you don't find anything, then you say 'Well, now I'm forced to go out and ask the community to scrutinise this.'" Caught speeding? The speed of light is the Universe's ultimate speed limit, and much of modern physics - as laid out in part by Albert Einstein in his theory of relativity - depends on the idea that nothing can exceed it. Thousands of experiments have been undertaken to measure it ever more precisely, and no result has ever spotted a particle breaking the limit. But Dr Ereditato and his colleagues have been carrying out an experiment for the last three years that seems to suggest neutrinos have done just that. Neutrinos come in a number of types, and have recently been seen to switch spontaneously from one type to another. The team prepares a beam of just one type, muon neutrinos, sending them from Cern to an underground laboratory at Gran Sasso in Italy to see how many show up as a different type, tau neutrinos. In the course of doing the experiments, the researchers noticed that the particles showed up a few billionths of a second sooner than light would over the same distance. The team measured the travel times of neutrino bunches some 15,000 times, and have reached a level of statistical significance that in scientific circles would count as a formal discovery. But the group understands that what are known as "systematic errors" could easily make an erroneous result look like a breaking of the ultimate speed limit, and that has motivated them to publish their measurements. "My dream would be that another, independent experiment finds the same thing - then I would be relieved," Dr Ereditato said. But for now, he explained, "we are not claiming things, we want just to be helped by the community in understanding our crazy result - because it is crazy". "And of course the consequences can be very serious." Source: BBC News Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
still1 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Come on Einstein cant be wrong... have you ever tried to solve E=MC2? Its complex and I have No idea how he was able do that without even being there on textbooks. The error might be in different places like the distance between the source and destination 732km might be wrong. superluminal was never proven to be in existence and this is definitely exciting for the scientist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Except more and more scientists now are staring to believe Einstein was wrong. His theory generally works, but the further down in scale you get it starts to crack and his theory no longer works, so they need a new improved theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMH Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I had a theory that speed of light will be exceeded, because the Kinetic potential of a particle indirectly depends on the energy converted from the original source. Therefore speed of light can be exceeded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astra.Xtreme Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Come on Einstein cant be wrong... have you ever tried to solve E=MC2? Its complex and I have No idea how he was able do that without even being there on textbooks. The error might be in different places like the distance between the source and destination 732km might be wrong. superluminal was never proven to be in existence and this is definitely exciting for the scientist. Time slows down when you get nearer to the speed of light, so it would be really easy to make an error with all the considerations that have to be taken into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
still1 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Except more and more scientists now are staring to believe Einstein was wrong. His theory generally works, but the further down in scale you get it starts to crack and his theory no longer works, so they need a new improved theory. can you link proof that more and more scientist staring to believe Einstein was wrong? It cannot just come from your mind then its just your opinion.... I was just curious to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neufuse Veteran Posted September 22, 2011 Veteran Share Posted September 22, 2011 can you link proof that more and more scientist staring to believe Einstein was wrong? It cannot just come from your mind then its just your opinion.... I was just curious to know. I remember a show on discovery channel talking about how einstein might of been off with the equation, cant for the life of me remember what it was called now..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astra.Xtreme Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 can you link proof that more and more scientist staring to believe Einstein was wrong? It cannot just come from your mind then its just your opinion.... I was just curious to know. He's referring to a completely different part of Einstein's theory/therories. There are tons and tons of books out there that try to explain why Einstein was wrong is certain areas. Here's a book that my Quantum Physics professor wrote and he would ramble on and on about how Einstein wasn't right with some of his conclusions; http://www.amazon.com/Was-Einstein-Right-Not-Quite/dp/1419616285 But in the end, Einstein's "nothing can travel faster than the speed of light" theory has never been touched. If this CERN observation is actually right, then it's the first time anybody has ever observed something faster than C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason S. Global Moderator Posted September 22, 2011 Global Moderator Share Posted September 22, 2011 im no scientist :laugh: but is it possible that whatever system theyre using to measure the time just isnt that accurate? i mean, they are talking billionths of a second at this point. how accurate are their stop watches? :cool: also, when they say they shot the neutrinos 732km, was that in a dead-straight line through the earth (flat) or did they take into account the curve of the earth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
still1 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Time slows down when you get nearer to the speed of light, so it would be really easy to make an error with all the considerations that have to be taken into account. Could be but would be interesting if they prove it right.... we will have to learn physics all over again. I remember a show on discovery channel talking about how einstein might of been off with the equation, cant for the life of me remember what it was called now..... will try to search netflix... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buttus Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 plus, who's to say that the earth doesn't shift in size by a trillionth of an inch, earthquakes somewhere, whatever... if it made the distance shorter, it would seem faster unless they have that factored in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason S. Global Moderator Posted September 22, 2011 Global Moderator Share Posted September 22, 2011 plus, who's to say that the earth doesn't shift in size by a trillionth of an inch, earthquakes somewhere, whatever... if it made the distance shorter, it would seem faster unless they have that factored in? you, sir, have your thinking cap on :yes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
still1 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 plus, who's to say that the earth doesn't shift in size by a trillionth of an inch, earthquakes somewhere, whatever... if it made the distance shorter, it would seem faster unless they have that factored in? interesting..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DClark Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Aw man, in ten years our computers will contain LHC technology that will read and write data at neutrino speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeta_immersion Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I look forward to this ... imagine 20 years ago, B/W TVs, square cars and no net now, we have touch screen phones and chip implants, hell stem cell research not to mention a breakthrough quantum computing now, 40 -50 years from now, when I will be somewhat senile and skizo, faster than light theories and maybe small applications some moon.mars station ... insane bottom line, love to hate humanity and its stupid struggles but man science is so cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerax Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 "And of course the consequences can be very serious. I think you mean: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DClark Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 plus, who's to say that the earth doesn't shift in size by a trillionth of an inch, earthquakes somewhere, whatever... if it made the distance shorter, it would seem faster unless they have that factored in? But since they did the test a gazillion times, would not continental drift or other shifting anomalies change the results over time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+KibosJ Subscriber² Posted September 22, 2011 Subscriber² Share Posted September 22, 2011 But since they did the test a gazillion times, would not continental drift or other shifting anomalies change the results over time? Was just thinking that.... a few times maybe, but they did the the tests a lot of time :p Still very interesting to find out what's happening :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentralDogma Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 can you link proof that more and more scientist staring to believe Einstein was wrong? It cannot just come from your mind then its just your opinion.... I was just curious to know. This series goes into detail over it. Basically, Einstein?s theories work well for large things, sub atomic particles behave differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zain Adeel Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 actually things get very crazy at subatomic levels. And Einstein never believed they can be like that. But i suppose they are. Now we are starting to see how it is. But i have many doubts about this perticular experiment. Ever read about those experiments where information is transfered faster than light? I mean the particles dont actually travel in that. They appear at the destination. What if these particles travelling actually disappeared and reappered a few nanonanonano meters ahead and actually skipped distance like this? Would these detectors ever find this out? That a particle shifted space? Or it duplicated where the previous just died and the clone reappeared to be a little ahead in space carrying on with the same speed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudslag Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Now create a time traveling email system so I can send myself the lotto numbers for next week. :rofl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybertimber2008 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Time slows down when you get nearer to the speed of light, so it would be really easy to make an error with all the considerations that have to be taken into account. That's the theory anyway. As you approach C (the speed of light), the only thing that can change is Time. plus, who's to say that the earth doesn't shift in size by a trillionth of an inch, earthquakes somewhere, whatever... if it made the distance shorter, it would seem faster unless they have that factored in? It's traveling through a metal tube and being carried on a beam... Earth shifting and earthquakes, that isn't going to change the length of the circular beam, which is known to many many decimal places in length due to it's very fine magneticly controlled path. And to the question about stopwatches, insanely accurate. You really have to understand how large some of the monitoring devices are (LHC, etc) to really understand just how they capture things like time and position of particles. The thing generates terabytes to petabytes of data per second, and theres millions of collisions per second. Edit: The point about testing multiple times and these events (earthquake, shifts) couldn't possibly occur every time is a great rebuttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon H Supervisor Posted September 22, 2011 Supervisor Share Posted September 22, 2011 Now create a time traveling email system so I can send myself the lotto numbers for next week. :rofl: http://www.gogoanime.com/category/steins-gate it's kinda scary how much this article reminds me of this series and CERN is actually the main enemy in the series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Derf Veteran Posted September 22, 2011 Veteran Share Posted September 22, 2011 The article I read suggested that FermiLab was going to attempt to replicate CERN's experiment. They've done similar work before but the margin or error from that (FermiLab's) experiment was large enough to make the results seem like an error. This whole thing was described as the scientific equivalent to the theoretical invention of a flying carpet. If it can be confirmed then it goes against everything that we thought we knew about physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astral Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 imagine 20 years ago, B/W TVs, square cars and no net 20 years hey? Try going back just a LITTLE farther than that for BW TV's. :blink: And the 'net' was around, it just wasn't what your current day net looked or acted like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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