Doctor under fire after saving woman's life

[shakey]

You wouldn't see it as hatred. The problem is that people don't just disagree with Jehovah's Witnesses, they take their disagreements with JWs and apply that to entirely separate religions or the major one that JW branches off of. I have huuuuuge issues with what JWs teach but I don't then turn around and go "That's religion at it's finest." - Because that's not fair and it demeans a huge portion of the population that are generally good people same as anyone else. Regardless of what they believe in or how it differs from my personal beliefs, because that's most definitely -not- "religion at it's finest" - Religion at it's finest is all of the good stuff that those people do that they otherwise wouldn't be inclined to do. You might think that they would with or without their religion, and maybe they'd be willing to, but they wouldn't be organized to. In my community the Catholic church and one of the Muslim mosques give food, soap, toothpaste, and clothes to people in need and want nothing in return back. They don't have to be members of the church/mosque or anything, just live in the general area. So when you refer to one person or one group doing something stupid/silly/ignorant as "Religion at it's finest." you're doing a disservice to an awful lot of good people.

Referring to them as outdated beliefs that we should have evolved beyond is also pretty ignorant. it's not your place nor mine nor anyone's to say that. What is outdated and something we should have evolved beyond is treating each other like %(*@ over our differences. That's not science or having a scientific mind by the way, a scientific mind doesn't say that god doesn't exist with absolute certainty. A scientific mind says that they haven't seen any proof of a god and therefore they don't believe in one but keep their mind open to the possibility. Being entirely closeminded is the very opposite of having a scientific mind. When someone says with absolute certainty that there is no god of any kind they're the exact same kind of stubborn person that they criticize, just on the opposite end of the spectrum.

I'm not telling you what to think btw, think and believe whatever you want. I actually like reading some of your posts, but others come across extremely insensitive.

Yes, actually. Much like how if a Muslim eats pork accidentally they'll be forgiven for that. If not in the JW faith I can only assume it's a quirk specific to JWs.

Religion causes many problems. It isn't hard to see that, if you don't ignore it. Many problems today, are arising due to conflicting religous beliefs, which are, outdated. Why can I say that? Because it is true. We can say things are outdated. If not, we would agree that Mayans are right to sacrafice people to their "gods". But guess what, we know that practice to be stupid, useless, and outdated. You can not just say something isn't outdated just because people believe something as such. We can easily say things are outdated beliefs when there is actual evidence to prove otherwise, that such a belief is actually a hindrance to life. Religion does such things, as keep archaic beliefs afloat, in direct opposition to what has already been proven otherwise. Just because someone wants to believe something, doesn't make it correct.

Religion isn't needed to be good. Religion isn't needed to help others. Religion isn't needed to feed the poor, help the needy, or anything. Religion is just there because of whatever reasons people have, but it is in no way a real solution. It only really helps divide everyone, and make otheres feel more special about something that they really shouldn't. Everything good done in the name of religion, can be done the exact same in the name of just Human Goodness. But many terrible things have happened that woudln't have happened if religion wasn't there.

And while some say, even if religion wasn't there, people would find reasons to hate. That is true, but there would be 1 less thing to hate upon. We might focus on other petty things, but I think having 1 less thing to hate someone for, especially belief wise, would be one HUGE step towards comming together as a species and world wide civilization.

[HawkMan]

problem is that this is a religious rule that stems from hundreds if not thousands of years ago. created because the elders had over generations finally learnt that for some reason people who ate/drank blood in some way got sick a lot more.

and since religion was the only way to control people they decided to make it a religious rule that "god" said not to drink or inject foreign blood to your body...

It made sense back then and probably saved many many lives. BUT the world has moved on, and some religious rules need to be ditched. and they should realize that the rules was made by ancient priests to save lives, not spoken by God.

[shakey]

problem is that this is a religious rule that stems from hundreds if not thousands of years ago. created because the elders had over generations finally learnt that for some reason people who ate/drank blood in some way got sick a lot more.

and since religion was the only way to control people they decided to make it a religious rule that "god" said not to drink or inject foreign blood to your body...

It made sense back then and probably saved many many lives. BUT the world has moved on, and some religious rules need to be ditched. and they should realize that the rules was made by ancient priests to save lives, not spoken by God.

Hawk amd I agreeing on something... uhoh... maybe there is a god :p

[leesmithg]

Doctors of Medicine take an oath which means they will attempt to save the life of anyone, what matter their race, religion or creed.

Doctor was right.

If the Jehovas witness wanted to preach bile, they should go the a hospital for Jehovas Witness's the Kingom of Douche!

[kizuran]

Makes me wonder why people eat beef then.

Technically, all the fluid that's left in carved bovine meats is principally water and dye(s), Hum. :cool:

[Memphis]

I am posting this from the nurses station at work. Ten feet from me is the poster of residence rights saying a patient has the right to refuse care and on the desk is a stack of watchtower publications left by patients. this boils down to the right to refuse care. It must always be honored period. Their is zero excuse for this doctor.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Not

I am posting this from the nurses station at work. Ten feet from me is the poster of residence rights saying a patient has the right to refuse care and on the desk is a stack of watchtower publications left by patients. this boils down to the right to refuse care. It must always be honored period. Their is zero excuse for this doctor.

Exactly!

The woman put it in writing she did not want the treatment. The doctor is at fault. He should learn to respect the wishes of his patients. Maybe this will teach him, this is a lesson he obviously has to learn.

[PGHammer]

Religion doesn't change anything about the facts. She made a written statement saying not to do it and the doctor did it anyway. Even none religious people do this and if the doctor treats them anyway, it's illegal just the same.

Only if you were told specifically not to.

And what if such a *hold-harmless* statement itself violates the law?

(Not farfetched in the least - "do not resuscitate" statements in advance by a patient are illegal in quite a few states and localities, including the District of Columbia. In short, there's a conflict between the *basic rights* of the patient - and the law. On which side should the doctor err?)

I am posting this from the nurses station at work. Ten feet from me is the poster of residence rights saying a patient has the right to refuse care and on the desk is a stack of watchtower publications left by patients. this boils down to the right to refuse care. It must always be honored period. Their is zero excuse for this doctor.

sidroc - what does local and state law say on the subject?

There can be - in fact, there usually are - conflicts between the *basic rights* of a patient and the law. (A "do not resuscitate" request is actually illegal in most of the US - including California.) On which side should a doctor err?

[nominak]

And what if such a *hold-harmless* statement itself violates the law?

(Not farfetched in the least - "do not resuscitate" statements in advance by a patient are illegal in quite a few states and localities, including the District of Columbia. In short, there's a conflict between the *basic rights* of the patient - and the law. On which side should the doctor err?)

sidroc - what does local and state law say on the subject?

There can be - in fact, there usually are - conflicts between the *basic rights* of a patient and the law. (A "do not resuscitate" request is actually illegal in most of the US - including California.) On which side should a doctor err?

The side where health care isn't a human right.

[techbeck]

Some people take religion seriously and abide strickly by the written word. They believe that if they go against the word, then it could be bad for them in life, or after.

Unless the woman wasnt clear and in a confused state, her wishes should of been honored.

[~Johnny]

If I was the doctor I would have been like... "Awesome, my ass is covered she has in writing not to save her life" I'm not touching that chick with a 10 foot poll. Nightly Night!

Of course, it was the Doctors fault in the first place that she is in the situation where she needed the transfusion, and presumably he was covering his ass by not letting her die after he didn't take her into the O.R. to get her bleeding controlled in time :p

[shadodemon]

I am posting this from the nurses station at work. Ten feet from me is the poster of residence rights saying a patient has the right to refuse care and on the desk is a stack of watchtower publications left by patients. this boils down to the right to refuse care. It must always be honored period. Their is zero excuse for this doctor.

Your a moron a doctor is suppose to save peoples lives not let someone die especially when there is a chance to save a mother that has given birth, religion or not she is is selfish she rather would have died than be there for her child? Who does that? Its not doing the right thing its a stupid wrong thing to do, and selfish is a sin!

[+Warwagon MVC]

Your a moron a doctor is suppose to save peoples lives not let someone die especially when there is a chance to save a mother that has given birth, religion or not she is is selfish she rather would have died than be there for her child? Who does that? Its not doing the right thing its a stupid wrong thing to do, and selfish is a sin!

Umm... she had it in writing. The doctors hands "Should" have been tied.

[ZeroFearX]

Any persons who are willing to die for their religion should not be given ability to take important decisions and they should have their kids taken away.

I am all with the doctor. Some people don't even understand the impact of their actions.

My problem with this case is due to the religious belief behind it.

[DocM]

if he was a good doctor, he would have known that there's lots of alternatives...

like?

A blood substitute. There are a few, and several in late trials. So far only South Africa and Russia have approved them, buit in a life or death waivers can be given. Put her on ice (hypothermia, now an approved emergency technique in the US) and get a fast shipment from Russia.

[Phantom Spaceman]

Makes me wonder why people eat beef then.

We're not JW, but we don't consume the blood from animals. We cook everything thoroughly, even including boiling out the blood in some cases. =o)

[Memphis]

Your a moron a doctor is suppose to save peoples lives not let someone die especially when thereby is a chance to save a mother that has given birth, religion or not she is is selfish she rather would have died than be there for her child? Who does that? Its not doing the right thing its a stupid wrong thing to do, and selfish is a sin!

I will remember that next time I recusitate a dnr patient and get charged with assault and battery.

[DocM]

I will remember that next time I recusitate a dnr patient and get charged with assault and battery.

Precisely - violating DNR orders can get you in a whole pot full of trouble.

[shakey]

Sid and DocM, just a question. How would it weigh on your conscience, to let a mother whos baby you just delivered, die, when you had every ability to save her? Would it hurt, or would you be able to shrug it off because of a document? I'd imagine I'd be hurt.

[Slammers]

People are missing that, as much as he probably doesn't want anyone to die, he only saved her because it was his **** up in the first place so if she had died he would have been in even more **** than he is right now.

Plenty of people ask to not be given blood etc. I don't agree with it but in the end it's their decision and the sooner religion dies out the better (although earth will probably shake itself to bits first).

[+Warwagon MVC]

Sid and DocM, just a question. How would it weigh on your conscience, to let a mother whos baby you just delivered, die, when you had every ability to save her? Would it hurt, or would you be able to shrug it off because of a document? I'd imagine I'd be hurt.

It would hurt, but a lot less than being pounded up the rear by bubba in the state pen.

[Slammers]

Sid and DocM, just a question. How would it weigh on your conscience, to let a mother whos baby you just delivered, die, when you had every ability to save her? Would it hurt, or would you be able to shrug it off because of a document? I'd imagine I'd be hurt.

Personally, I would try to take comfort in the fact that the child will hopefully now get to grow up with a less retarded care giver.

Anyway, you can't look at it like that, your not a doctor. A doctors job revolves around moral dilemas and hardship like this. It's not like this stuff never happens and their certainly not going to fell as bad as the times when they are trying to save a young life and loose it etc.

[DocM]

^^--- this.

Losing a patient hurts like hell, regardless of how/why and especially kids, but part of being able to do the job is learning to handle it. If you can't do that it's time to hang up your spurs.

For me a bit is compartmentalization, and a lot is my faith & turning my mind to family and activities. Others cope in different ways, some self-destructive. Burnout in medicine is a big issue, and I don't mean just physicians; nurses, the various techs and others take emotional hits too. We're all human.

IMO calling the high salaries in many parts of medicine 'combat pay' wouldn't be far off.

[Anibal P]

Religion at it's finest.

Mormonism/Jehova's Witnesses are more of a cult than a real Religion,huge difference

[Lyric]

I guess they want tax payers to pick up the tab on the mothers child, since she would rather die and not provide for her own kid.

I don't support my tax dollars going to kids of mothers like this.