metro Why some of us don't "embrace change" when it's not due.

[Glassed Silver]

Okay, originally this was a reply "rant" to some ignorant user, so don't wonder I address him/her in this piece of text, as I'm too lazy to rewrite it. :p

Keep this in mind and don't think I'm talking to myself or an imaginary friend okay? :laugh:

Here we go:

[in reply to a comment that the start menu isn't as efficient as Metro where you just need to type the name of the application and it's faster and such...]

Some applications have the weirdest names (especially small tools on the Windows and Linux platforms).

Usually, what I do is put them into a folder (group them if you will) that I name for the task. Because I think renaming applications is REALLY stinky...

I then have this folder, I know it's there, then, the application logo or my slight remembrance of the name of that DLSFtool.exe (just a random example name i hammered on my keyboard) will be easy to get.

Or sometimes you wanna just browse a list of applications.

Maybe I'm an alien to you with this, but I like going through a list of my (many) applications and then thinking Oh yeah, I could do some xyz in that application again.

Of cause I can scroll my applications in Metro, too, but you know, the thing is the start menu is more packed and dense and still simple to navigate...

In fact, I actually prefer being able to monitor my running applications (maybe even a video?) when I'm looking for the next application to launch.

It's obvious that if you don't miss these things, Metro might be VERY excellent for you and hence, all power to you.

MS will please you big time and I'm happy they satisfy you, however please don't try to pull everyone into your boat and say that what works for you, will work for everyone.

(Well, it WILL work, however with drawbacks and limitations, some you won't have as you don't care about a few things, but trying to tell me that I just need to ignore my preferences or otherwise be "stuck in the past", "not moving on" or "oppose change" would be silly. (Not quotes from you, but from other users who are happy with Metro and actually really have this "down your throat" mentality and that PI**ES ME OFF!))

Didn't post it as a reply to him/her, but instead thought it'd be wise to direct this to the forum, as I think this will gather a good discussion and FPN comments just don't cut it.

Glassed Silver:mac

[V23]

Not trying to sound snarky or anything (genuinely asking) but have you tried right-clicking the start screen and going to 'all apps'?

[Lels]

Right clicking and going to all apps still brings up a full screen start menu, which is part of this complaint as well..

[V23]

Right clicking and going to all apps still brings up a full screen start menu, which is part of this complaint as well..

Yeah, that's true. I still think making a group of the 'small tools' on the start screen would be quicker to access. Group them on the start screen and put them at the very end if you don't use them that often. So:

Windows 7

- Press 'Windows key' or click the start menu

- Click on 'all programs'

- Scroll down until you find the folder

- Click on folder

- Find application and click on it

Windows 8

- Press 'Windows key'

- Press 'End' (on your keyboard)

- Select app from group

[Lels]

Yeah, that's true. I still think making a group of the 'small tools' on the start screen would be quicker to access. Group them on the start screen and put them at the very end if you don't use them that often. So:

Windows 7

- Press 'Windows key' or click the start menu

- Click on 'all programs'

- Scroll down until you find the folder

- Click on folder

- Find application and click on it

Windows 8

- Press 'Windows key'

- Press 'End' (on your keyboard)

- Select app from group

That's true. I can't speak for OP but for me at least the main issue with Windows 8 is the start screen in the first place. I hate how it takes up the whole screen and takes me away from what I was doing on the desktop. I understand this is where you go to run Metro apps, but I don't want to run tablet apps on my computer. If i want to run tablet apps and a tablet based interface, I'll buy a tablet.

Another gripe is the Metro control panel/settings (can't remember what it's called.) I mostly use my netbook, and if metro apps don't work on that low of a resolution, why does this work? Why do I need two seperate control panel/settings programs. Not to mention to close this app is a pain in the ass.

[~Johnny]

That's true. I can't speak for OP but for me at least the main issue with Windows 8 is the start screen in the first place. I hate how it takes up the whole screen and takes me away from what I was doing on the desktop. I understand this is where you go to run Metro apps, but I don't want to run tablet apps on my computer. If i want to run tablet apps and a tablet based interface, I'll buy a tablet.

You don't have to run tablet apps from it. It's perfectly fine at being filled only with normal applications - at which point it's meant to be an "easier" way of launching your programs. "Easier" is subjective of course, but their reasoning lies somewhere within the ability to creating custom groups, organize the order your applications however you want, being able to across across the screen without even touching a scrollbar allowing for quicker browsing, larger hit targets, which - according to Fitts law - actually makes it easier and quicker to launch a program, amoong other things.

Of course, if people don't go in with an open mind to try something different or try to use it like their older tool, they're far less likely to be able to properly experience any benefits this one brings, if it is capable of bringing benefits to them.

[Lels]

You don't have to run tablet apps from it. It's perfectly fine at being filled only with normal applications - at which point it's meant to be an "easier" way of launching your programs. "Easier" is subjective of course, but their reasoning lies somewhere within the ability to creating custom groups, organize the order your applications however you want, being able to across across the screen without even touching a scrollbar allowing for quicker browsing, larger hit targets, which - according to Fitts law - actually makes it easier and quicker to launch a program, amoong other things.

Of course, if people don't go in with an open mind to try something different or try to use it like their older tool, they're far less likely to be able to properly experience any benefits this one brings, if it is capable of bringing benefits to them.

You're right. I will agree, it's an easier way to open apps. However, I stated my main gripe was I hate how it takes up the whole screen and takes me away from what I was doing on the desktop. I don't want to be taken away from what I was doing just to save a few seconds on opening a program. Everyone acts like we are talking about a highly signifigant amount of time saved here. I hardly see it that way.

Also, this whole be open minded, not being open to change, etc, etc stuff is getting old. I'm not pointing at you directly, so in no way should you take this as a personal attack, but people on here just need to accept the fact that a lot of us have a problem with Windows 8. Sure some barely gave it any time, but others have probably have given it enough time (I'd say I'm one of those) to know what people on here precieve to be benifits aren't for them. Or that these benifits don't outweigh the other complaints they have about Windows 8. It would seem that these people that are crying out be open minded/whatever are not being open minded themselves by not accepting the fact that not everyone is going to see the benifts like they do or that they just might not care for Windows 8. Shocking, I know.

[dafin0]

You're right. I will agree, it's an easier way to open apps. However, I stated my main gripe was I hate how it takes up the whole screen and takes me away from what I was doing on the desktop. I don't want to be taken away from what I was doing just to save a few seconds on opening a program. Everyone acts like we are talking about a highly signifigant amount of time saved here. I hardly see it that way.

Also, this whole be open minded, not being open to change, etc, etc stuff is getting old. I'm not pointing at you directly, so in no way should you take this as a personal attack, but people on here just need to accept the fact that a lot of us have a problem with Windows 8. Sure some barely gave it any time, but others have probably have given it enough time (I'd say I'm one of those) to know what people on here precieve to be benifits aren't for them. Or that these benifits don't outweigh the other complaints they have about Windows 8. It would seem that these people that are crying out be open minded/whatever are not being open minded themselves by not accepting the fact that not everyone is going to see the benifts like they do or that they just might not care for Windows 8. Shocking, I know.

i just dont really understand why you need to see the desktop when you are in the start menu/all apps menu. when on windows 7 when im in the start menu i dont think i ever look at what else iv got running.. maybe thats just me.

im not saying NO YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG but i just dont see the need/problem

[COKid]

While I appreciate all of the passion on Neowin users, never in my life have I seem so much bitching and complaining about a piece of BETA software.

This is not that complicated.

1. If you don't like Windows 8, send your feelings to Microsoft. In the meantime, don't use it. Windows 7 will be supported until 2020, for goodness sakes.

2. Move on with the rest of your life. No one is making you "embrace" anything!

:D

[Active.]

You don't have to run tablet apps from it. It's perfectly fine at being filled only with normal applications - at which point it's meant to be an "easier" way of launching your programs.

Is it though, in its current form?

Screenshot by Matthew Baxter-Reynolds. [Source]

What I'd like to see is an option for making the icon larger, which would make apps with easily recognizable icons much easier to pick out.

[~Johnny]

Is it though, in its current form?

I certainly think so :p I'd personally unpin all that VS tools nonsense, but I find the benefits of being able to scroll just by moving the mouse, being able to put all my favourite programs at the front, hiding all the tools nonsense I don't really use often, etc.

I'm not entirely fussed about the icon size, I'm using a 24" monitor on my desktop, but when I'm scanning through the start screen I seem to be scanning more for text names of the programs rather than the icons.

[Lels]

i just dont really understand why you need to see the desktop when you are in the start menu/all apps menu. when on windows 7 when im in the start menu i dont think i ever look at what else iv got running.. maybe thats just me.

im not saying NO YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG but i just dont see the need/problem

It's not just you. I'm sure there are others that are the same way, but I am not. It's just annoying to me to have something take focus away from the main part of my computer (the desktop) and what I am doing to go into a tablet interface to launch a program that might save me a few seconds of time and is going to take me right back to the desktop anyway. Let me say this is just how I feel and know not everyone is going to agree with it, and thats completely fine. :)

While I appreciate all of the passion on Neowin users, never in my life have I seem so much bitching and complaining about a piece of BETA software.

This is not that complicated.

1. If you don't like Windows 8, send your feelings to Microsoft. In the meantime, don't use it. Windows 7 will be supported until 2020, for goodness sakes.

2. Move on with the rest of your life. No one is making you "embrace" anything!

:D

I don't use Windows 8, and unless Microsoft includes a way to disable Metro, I won't ever. However this is a discussion forum and this what we are doing, having a discussion. We are aware that this is a beta software, but a lot of the complaint is about Metro and the start screen its self. I really don't see Microsoft getting rid of the start screen. Hopefully they will include a way to disable it and bring back the start menu but I won't hold my breath.

[V23]

It's not just you. I'm sure there are others that are the same way, but I am not. It's just annoying to me to have something take focus away from the main part of my computer (the desktop) and what I am doing to go into a tablet interface to launch a program that might save me a few seconds of time and is going to take me right back to the desktop anyway. Let me say this is just how I feel and know not everyone is going to agree with it, and thats completely fine. :)

That's fair enough but how can you be focusing on which program you're opening from the start menu as well as whatever is on your desktop at the same time?

[Calum Veteran]

Is it though, in its current form?

[. . .]

What I'd like to see is an option for making the icon larger, which would make apps with easily recognizable icons much easier to pick out.

In reply to your question, I'd say it is still easy, due to the Search feature. I agree with your idea of making the icon bigger, though; icons allow us to easily pick out what we're looking for.

It's not just you. I'm sure there are others that are the same way, but I am not. It's just annoying to me to have something take focus away from the main part of my computer (the desktop) [. . .]

But Microsoft have made the Metro experience the main part of Windows 8; the Desktop is merely an app that is accessed from the Metro experience (the main Windows 8 experience). So going back to the Start screen to select an app isn't taking you away from the main part of your computer; it may be taking you away from what you'd rather designate as the main part of your computer, but it technically isn't.

[Active.]

In reply to your question, I'd say it is still easy, due to the Search feature.

it's definitely insanely fast and completely lag-free to enter the start screen, type in a few letters and press return. I feel like at no point do you have to wait for the UI to react. So that at least is great.

[Ryster]

That's true. I can't speak for OP but for me at least the main issue with Windows 8 is the start screen in the first place. I hate how it takes up the whole screen and takes me away from what I was doing on the desktop. I understand this is where you go to run Metro apps, but I don't want to run tablet apps on my computer. If i want to run tablet apps and a tablet based interface, I'll buy a tablet.

Forgive me for saying, but if you don't want to run metro apps or use metro, then Windows 8 is the wrong OS for you.

As I posted in another thread, Windows 8 isn't just an evolution of Windows 7, it's a totally different platform... a metro platform first and foremost. The desktop in Windows 8 is only there as a backwards compatibility environment to allow you to run legacy non-metro apps. As such if you don't want to use metro and only want to hack windows to make it work like Windows 7, then it would be illogical to buy this product. Knock yourself out though :)

Regarding icon size in metro, I agree wholeheartedly. I'd like a way to make my non-metro tiles look like metro ones complete with a coloured background, same size icon and text. I don't like how they look dull and bland at the moment.

[Salutary7]

While I appreciate all of the passion on Neowin users, never in my life have I seem so much bitching and complaining about a piece of BETA software.

Probably because many people very much wanted it to be amazing and what they got fell far short of their expectations. But, this is the MS Beta section afterall, so why not complain about beta software? :rofl:

[Lels]

That's fair enough but how can you be focusing on which program you're opening from the start menu as well as whatever is on your desktop at the same time?

Well, If I'm watching a video/movie or using an IM program to chat. Those are a couple of examples.

But Microsoft have made the Metro experience the main part of Windows 8; the Desktop is merely an app that is accessed from the Metro experience (the main Windows 8 experience). So going back to the Start screen to select an app isn't taking you away from the main part of your computer; it may be taking you away from what you'd rather designate as the main part of your computer, but it technically isn't.

I'm sorry, you're right. The desktop ins't really the main part of Windows 8, but rather what I feel should be the main part of the computer, since it's not a tablet. As I stated earlier, I don't want to use tablet apps on my computer or a tablet interface. Those should be left for tablets. Metro is desgined for tablets, and in my opinion should be left to just that, tablets. They shouldn't be mashing the two expierences together in an attempt to unify two very different types of machines.

Forgive me for saying, but if you don't want to run metro apps or use metro, then Windows 8 is the wrong OS for you.

As I posted in another thread, Windows 8 isn't just an evolution of Windows 7, it's a totally different platform... a metro platform first and foremost. The desktop in Windows 8 is only there as a backwards compatibility environment to allow you to run legacy non-metro apps. As such if you don't want to use metro and only want to hack windows to make it work like Windows 7, then it would be illogical to buy this product. Knock yourself out though :)

Oh, I won't be buying Windows 8, unless they allow us to somehow disable Metro, which I won't be holding my breath for as I stated eariler. However, it's not like Metro is the only new feature in Windows 8. I don't want to hack it to make it look like Windows 7, I just don't want Metro.

You're right it seems that ths is a whole new platform, a platform geared towards tabelts and touch based device. I just hate that Microsoft seems to be leaving people who still want to use their computer like a computer and not a tablet out in the cold.

[dafin0]

Forgive me for saying, but if you don't want to run metro apps or use metro, then Windows 8 is the wrong OS for you.

As I posted in another thread, Windows 8 isn't just an evolution of Windows 7, it's a totally different platform

i dont agree, i think the desktop is still a very important part of Windows 8 and i dont see it going away any time soon.

[Active.]

i dont agree, i think the desktop is still a very important part of Windows 8 and i dont see it going away any time soon.

It may not be going away, but Microsoft isn't developing great new ideas or delivering significant improvements to the desktop anymore either, save for some modest Explorer improvements. They are also choosing to make newly developed apps like the PDF reader exclusively Metro. And the desktop as a whole has been demoted to just another app among other 'Metro' apps which means that the whole experience is now going to be optimized for Metro and not desktop usage. The most striking example of this being of course, that you are now booting into the Metro start screen instead of onto the desktop.

[Ryster]

i dont agree, i think the desktop is still a very important part of Windows 8 and i dont see it going away any time soon.

What's to agree with? Metro being the centre of Windows 8 and desktop being relegated to an app-compat environment is fact, not opinion. As Microsoft themselves have made abundantly clear.

[~Johnny]

It may not be going away, but Microsoft isn't developing great new ideas or delivering significant improvements to the desktop anymore either, save for some modest Explorer improvements. They are also choosing to make newly developed apps like the PDF reader exclusively Metro. And the desktop as a whole has been demoted to just another app among other 'Metro' apps which means that the whole experience is now going to be optimized for Metro and not desktop usage. The most striking example of this being of course, that you are now booting into the Metro start screen instead of onto the desktop.

It's treated like an app in the sense that you can use the same gestures on it, but it's not demoted to "just another "app. No such Metro restrictions are placed upon it, and it behaves exactly as it has before, and you can't close it. Booting to the start screen was more of a "helpful" change - it's a screen for starting stuff. When you boot up your PC, you usually want to start some to actually use on your PC, so they put you to a big screen where you can start stuff. It's not the most illogical change or choice in the world is it?

[Active.]

It's not the most illogical change or choice in the world is it?

No, it isn't. I guess I would feel differently about this if the Start screen was geared towards Desktop apps instead of Metro apps. :)

[Stoffel]

It's treated like an app in the sense that you can use the same gestures on it, but it's not demoted to "just another "app. No such Metro restrictions are placed upon it, and it behaves exactly as it has before, and you can't close it. Booting to the start screen was more of a "helpful" change - it's a screen for starting stuff. When you boot up your PC, you usually want to start some to actually use on your PC, so they put you to a big screen where you can start stuff. It's not the most illogical change or choice in the world is it?

You can actually close the desktop just like you can with a Metro app. Grab the top and drag it down.

Other then that though, the desktop is more then just an app.

After reading thousands of posts here on Neowin about Win8 I feel it really comes down to this

If you can't live with the fact that the start menu turned into a full screen because you feel it's jarring for your work flow you will never going to like Win 8

If on the other hand you have no issue with that, like me, then you will probably be fine with it.

Otherwise not much has changed in workflow

[Mugwump00]

I've noticed some stuff that is simply missing from the W8 StartScreen that I user everyday in W7;

- Searching the W7 StartMenu allows right-clicking the results for context-menu actions not possible for the pinned icon - e.g. running the app via Sandboxie (as an example - not yet available for W8)

- Jumplists for incidental apps you like to have around, but not on the Taskbar - no more

- Using the Windows key to re-layer the local Taskbar on-top of other ill-behaved windows (e.g. Citrix) now results in the obvious un-needed shunt into Metro

I'm sure there are others, but these are enough to shape my view that I'd rather be using Win7 for the time being. Being open-minded is one-thing, but deprecating genuinely useful features is not progress.