metro Why some of us don't "embrace change" when it's not due.

[Wyn6]

I've noticed some stuff that is simply missing from the W8 StartScreen that I user everyday in W7;

- Searching the W7 StartMenu allows right-clicking the results for context-menu actions not possible for the pinned icon - e.g. running the app via Sandboxie (as an example - not yet available for W8)

- Jumplists for incidental apps you like to have around, but not on the Taskbar - no more

- Using the Windows key to re-layer the local Taskbar on-top of other ill-behaved windows (e.g. Citrix) now results in the obvious un-needed shunt into Metro

I'm sure there are others, but these are enough to shape my view that I'd rather be using Win7 for the time being. Being open-minded is one-thing, but deprecating genuinely useful features is not progress.

Again, this is a beta and again, the above are small usage scenarios. But, that certainly doesn't invalidate your uses of it. With this being a beta, we may yet see some of those things return. I know Jump Lists are something that many of us found hugely useful and I wonder how you could institute that in the Metro environment. It's still in the desktop for taskbar items of course.

What I think many here are missing is the bigger picture. Microsoft has engineered Windows 8 and by extension Metro to be an entity that grows more powerful as you feed it. Right now, the 95 apps that are in the market are baby food mostly. Many are incomplete as well. But, once this thing hits tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands and greater numbers of apps, it's gonna be a beast. They won't be just "tablet" apps. There will be apps as robust as what we use on the PC now. If the office team had more time, we'd see the new office as full-on Metro. But, once this baby grows into full beast-mode, what you'll be able to do will be... well I won't say unimaginable... but it will far surpass anything we've been able to do to-date.

That's what I'm excited to see.

[Glassed Silver]

Again, this is a beta and again, the above are small usage scenarios. But, that certainly doesn't invalidate your uses of it. With this being a beta, we may yet see some of those things return. I know Jump Lists are something that many of us found hugely useful and I wonder how you could institute that in the Metro environment. It's still in the desktop for taskbar items of course.

What I think many here are missing is the bigger picture. Microsoft has engineered Windows 8 and by extension Metro to be an entity that grows more powerful as you feed it. Right now, the 95 apps that are in the market are baby food mostly. Many are incomplete as well. But, once this thing hits tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands and greater numbers of apps, it's gonna be a beast. They won't be just "tablet" apps. There will be apps as robust as what we use on the PC now. If the office team had more time, we'd see the new office as full-on Metro. But, once this baby grows into full beast-mode, what you'll be able to do will be... well I won't say unimaginable... but it will far surpass anything we've been able to do to-date.

That's what I'm excited to see.

Give me a less intrusive start screen (as in not full screen forced) and multi-window.

Then I'll buy it.

(two windows doesn't qualify... :rolleyes: )

Glassed Silver:mac

[Nashy]

"Create a group" "Do this" "Do that"

No. How's about MS just give me the Start Bar that has worked for years.

[Glassed Silver]

"Create a group" "Do this" "Do that"

No. How's about MS just give me the Start Bar that has worked for years.

That response is prone to have a shi*storm coming in... :p

I support your statement, though!

Glassed Silver:mac

[Lels]

"Create a group" "Do this" "Do that"

No. How's about MS just give me the Start Bar that has worked for years.

Not saying you are, but I feel like this is exactly what almost every average joe user is going to say/feel. I understand that they will probably include a tutorial on how to use the new features, I just think it's going to be too overwhelming. This whole transition to unifty two very different machines seems wrong, and if not wrong, too rushed. If this is the course they are wanting to take they should be taking baby steps much like Apple is with iOS and OS X. Maybe let users get use to Metro through tablets and say just the apps for Windows 8. I for one would use Windows 8 then and this would probably make a lot more of the power users happy.

[Mugwump00]

Give me a less intrusive start screen (as in not full screen forced) and multi-window.

Then I'll buy it.

(two windows doesn't qualify... :rolleyes: )

Glassed Silver:mac

You got there before me! I understand the limitations imposed by a physically small touch-screen means full-screen apps are the most pragmatic (although few IOS and Android apps seem to go totally full-screen, not sure about WP7), but not on the desktop. Windows IS windows; perhpas not always for everyone (so many users prefer theirs maximized), but for many.

Other than this browser session, my desktop is awash with info. And I want to see it. I might go maximized with a design or photo management app, but I want that choice.

WinRT is currently so-far from removed from conventional windows I'm not sure it has a great deal of relevance to more than mobile and task-workers. I feel MS are trying to foister their cross-platform ambitions, at the risk of alienating a very large proportion of their legacy market, for 1 big update cycle or more. A risky game.

I'm not too convinced they're going to re-shape the current experience much before RTM - it's too late by their standards. Hope I'm wrong.

[Nashy]

Not saying you are, but I feel like this is exactly what almost every average joe user is going to say/feel. I understand that they will probably include a tutorial on how to use the new features, I just think it's going to be too overwhelming. This whole transition to unifty two very different machines seems wrong, and if not wrong, too rushed. If this is the course they are wanting to take they should be taking baby steps much like Apple is with iOS and OS X. Maybe let users get use to Metro through tablets and say just the apps for Windows 8. I for one would use Windows 8 then and this would probably make a lot more of the power users happy.

I agree. I will certainly not be giving Windows 8 to my parents. There is no way I have the time, or desire, to teach my mother how to use something that's changed to dramatically. She still struggles with Windows XP and 7! Microsoft really seems to have the arrogance of Apple and the brains of... no one in regard to this.

I can't see Apple ever doing anything to just completely and utterly change their desktop experience in one hit like this.

I can see OS's moving this way, but I never thought we would see Microsoft force this onto all of their desktop users. I understand there are people that love it. But out of those that like it, I'm sure at least 50% of them are still in the "OMG NEW OS IS SO AWESOME! LOOK AT THE COLOURS!!! AHHHHH YAAAY" stage of playing.

[Salutary7]

What I think many here are missing is the bigger picture. Microsoft has engineered Windows 8 and by extension Metro to be an entity that grows more powerful as you feed it. Right now, the 95 apps that are in the market are baby food mostly. Many are incomplete as well. But, once this thing hits tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands and greater numbers of apps, it's gonna be a beast. They won't be just "tablet" apps. There will be apps as robust as what we use on the PC now. If the office team had more time, we'd see the new office as full-on Metro. But, once this baby grows into full beast-mode, what you'll be able to do will be... well I won't say unimaginable... but it will far surpass anything we've been able to do to-date.

That's what I'm excited to see.

I totally agree that there is huge potential for the software ecosystem to evolve into something great, but I don't really see Metro apps improving PC software per se. What I think makes it exciting is the potential for continuity. If you can buy one software license that provides similar functionality over every Windows device, then that would truly be revolutionary. But, this strongly relies on how well things are integrated with Winphone8, not just tablets.

This is a bit of a tangent, but phones will always be the more common mobile computing device because, let's face it, people don't want to carry tablets everywhere. So I can imagine reviewing a document(pdf, powerpoint, news article, etc.) at home or work and continuing where I left off on my phone during the commute. Or starting a game on the phone while on the toilet and continuing with better graphics on the PC :D. If the software can make any transition between devices seamless, then at that point who even cares if there's no start menu? :laugh: Of course this would just be my preferred vision. I have no idea if that's what's in the works.

[V23]

You'd think with all of the complaining about Metro people had their start menu open 90% of the time when using Windows 7. 90% of the complaints come down to people being unable, unwilling or too lazy to learn how to do something (not directed at anyone in particular). The fact of the matter is that Metro is only going to get more integrated in the Windows OS, not less. The choices are:

1. Learn to use Windows 8 (use it for a week and you might surprise yourself with being unable to return to Windows 7)

2. Keep using Windows 7, basically forever as Windows 9 will continue down the path Microsoft has set with 8

3. Use OSX (although with the success of the iPod/iPhone/iPad Apple will, and already are, converging iOS and OSX)

4. Use Linux

5. Keep complaining

[Kelxin]

Windows 8

- Press 'Windows key'

- Press 'End' (on your keyboard)

- Select app from group

*Presses Windows Key* - DOH, the host OS not my Hyper-V machine poped up.

*Tries to go to the crappy charm bar* - DOH hover over doesn't do **** in a hyper-v.

This is killing a ton of functionality in Windows Server that when managing OTHER people's computers makes it a pain in the ass. I know where the start button is on EVERY Windows 95, 98, ME, 2k, XP, Vista, win7, NT, Server 2k, 2k3, 2k8, 2k8 R2 is but when I sit down to some ass hats computer that decided to **** with his tiles and throw **** around so they are just the way HE wants them to be, maintaining them will be a nightmare.

1. Learn to use Windows 8 (use it for a week and you might surprise yourself with being unable to return to Windows 7)

2. Keep using Windows 7, basically forever as Windows 9 will continue down the path Microsoft has set with 8

3. Use OSX (although with the success of the iPod/iPhone/iPad Apple will, and already are, converging iOS and OSX)

4. Use Linux

5. Keep complaining

1. Tried it in dev preview and public preview *i.e. alpha and beta* and it still sucks ass.

2. Or we could tell Microsoft to change the product and they do and the trend continues with windows 9 and so on and they never make the same dumb mistake again.

3. I use OSX also and they're not converging iOS and OSX, but guess that shows how much you pay attention to both markets.

4. I do that too, several flavors.

5. And I'll continue doing that also until stupid people like you and the team at Microsoft that put this into play get the message.

Of course, in the long run, money talks and none is going into Windows 8.

[V23]

I use OSX also and they're not converging iOS and OSX, but guess that shows how much you pay attention to both markets.

iOS and OSX aren't converging are they? Well the CEO of Apple, Tim Cook, thinks otherwise but perhaps you have a better idea than he does... Here's a little interview he had with the Wall Street Journal:

Named "Mountain Lion," the new version of OS X is the clearest sign yet of Apple's belief that the mobile, laptop and desktop world are destined to converge?and that Apple wants to be a catalyst. "We see that people are in love with a lot of the apps and functionality here," said Mr. Cook, 51 years old, pointing at his iPhone. "So, anywhere where it makes sense, we are going to move that over to Mac."

Guess that shows how much you pay attention to both markets. When the personal attacks start, you know the other person has no proper arguments left.

[Wyn6]

Hey, V23. Be careful. OSes are like religion. Watch what you say or some fanatic may come onto the forum and suicide bomb you. ;)

[Lels]

Man, and I was just thinking about how it was awesome how there were no personal attacks in this thread yet. I guess a thread just can't be kept civilized these days.

[Kelxin]

iOS and OSX aren't converging are they? Well the CEO of Apple, Tim Cook, thinks otherwise but perhaps you have a better idea than he does...

90% of the people on this forum have a better idea of whats going on in Apple then Tim Cook, that is almost everyone except for you.

I mean seriously, do you see full screen swiping in the new preview OS X? Yea, thought so.

[Lels]

90% of the people on this forum have a better idea of whats going on in Apple then Tim Cook, that is almost everyone except for you.

I mean seriously, do you see full screen swiping in the new preview OS X? Yea, thought so.

Are you serious? Are you seriously stating Tim Cook has no idea of what's going on at the company he is CEO at? Just because OS X isn't exactly like iOS doesn't mean they aren't merging some of the features together and possibly slowly moving more the direction Microsoft is swiftly taking.

Mission Control - App launcher like in iOS

Messages - Will be in Mountain Lion

Gaming Center - Will be in Mountain Lion

Push Notifications - Will be in Mountain Lion

iCloud intergration - Will be in Mountain Lion.

These are all iOS features that are/will be in OS X. Not to mention they are also renaming some apps to follow the names in iOS. This certainly means they ARE converging the two in some way. Maybe not as swiftly as Microsoft, but how do you know they won't eventually get there?

[migo]

The problem with this thread is that change is due.

It's about time we get rid of the chrome, the crappie that was Luna and Aero just taking up GPU cycles when a simple, borderless color will do.

It's about time we had OS control elements stay out of they way unless we're using them.

It's about time we got an OS that reflects how people use it. Look at the desktop of an average person, it has icons for various programs or websites scattered around. Some people use the desktop widgets too. Tiles do both, and let you keep them better organized while letting you have more shortcuts than would normally fit. The start screen is your desktop, and it scrolls horizontally to be your start menu as well. Search is handled by just letting you start typing.

It's about time we got rid of the drag and drop notion that requires increasingly large monitors to even handle it. See that share function in the charm bar? That's your send to/drag and drop replacement, and it works with a touchpad (drag and drop only works well with a mouse or trackball).

Change is due, and it's a good thing MS is dragging everyone kicking and screaming into the light. And guess what? Apple is doing it too. As is Gnome. KEEP is even playing with it. Android is moving out of mobiles into traditional PCs. You're not going to find anywhere to hide from the future, so quit whining about it, and learn why it actually is better. And yes, a few things still aren't polished, but they will be, maybe not until Windows 8 SP1 or SP2, but it'll get polished. Until then, you can still happilly use Windows 7 for the next few years - it will still be well supported.

[V23]

90% of the people on this forum have a better idea of whats going on in Apple then Tim Cook, that is almost everyone except for you.

I mean seriously, do you see full screen swiping in the new preview OS X? Yea, thought so.

Haha, I seriously hope you are joking. Did Steve Jobs know what he was talking about?

---

"As Steve Jobs put it in 2010, Apple intends to "hook up" the user environments of the iPad and the MacBook. The result is a substantial step forward for Apple inter-connectivity. Apple's announcement of Mountain Lion focuses on ten new features out of more than 100 changes in the OS. Of these, nine are lifted in their entirety from iOS - including Notification Center, AirPlay mirroring, Game Center, Share Sheets, iChat (now Messages), iCal (now Calendar), and Address Book (now Contacts)."

"But I can show how both Windows 8 and OS X Mountain Lion presage the dramatic change now under way in personal computing, and why that means the PC as we know it is coming to an end in the next few years. What's amazing about Windows 8 and OS X Mountain Lion is that, despite some radical implementation differences, their fundamental strategic directions share several similarities.

"Apple set this course when it developed iOS as an offshoot of Mac OS X sometime before the iPhone's 2007 debut, and then Apple CEO Steve Jobs made the OS X/iOS convergence strategy official 16 months ago. Current CEO Tim Cook reconfirmed this approach last week."

---

Read the bolded parts, extracted from reputable technology sites, then respond. I'll be interested in what you come back with. It appears more and more likely that you are in that 10% of people you keep mentioning.

P.S. Sorry to derail the thread, but this guy...

[~Johnny]

You can actually close the desktop just like you can with a Metro app. Grab the top and drag it down.

Sure, you can act like you're closing it, but it doesn't do anything. It trots along just fine, nothing actually closes or stops working :p

You got there before me! I understand the limitations imposed by a physically small touch-screen means full-screen apps are the most pragmatic (although few IOS and Android apps seem to go totally full-screen, not sure about WP7), but not on the desktop. Windows IS windows; perhpas not always for everyone (so many users prefer theirs maximized), but for many.

Other than this browser session, my desktop is awash with info. And I want to see it. I might go maximized with a design or photo management app, but I want that choice.

You do have that choice. The desktop. It's still there. And Microsoft are still supporting, and still updating and adding news features to desktop development. Metro / Immersive was designed in direct response to how tablet computing seems to make computing in general easier for a large section of the market - generally not those using it for work - but not to replace the entire market.

No person, not in Microsoft, not other developement studios, is saying they're going to drop the desktop, and make everything Metro. And frankly, Microsoft aren't letting developers do that anyway. WinRT is too sandboxed and restricted in many cases for what a lot of more expensive computer software developers want, and that means they'll be staying on the desktop for the meat of their work. Metro was never designed to replace everything, and it's not going too.

Just use the desktop for you work and be happy. Microsoft's not forcing you to use Metro apps from the Windows Store, and they'll gladly let you run a PC full entirely of desktop apps, manage Windows, and snap away to your hearts content.

And then for anyone else who wants it, there's the option of something simpler, and less complex.

[Fourjays Veteran]

Well if the PC is coming to an end then there is going to be very few apps and websites to use on these uber cool flippy touchscreen slide devices... The one thing I still see as an issue is how software such as Office, Visual Studio, Photoshop, Netbeans/Eclipse/Aptana, etc are going to work in the world of touch-centric devices. It even seems the answer for the next Office and VS so far is to give it a bland skin and run it on the desktop. :/

If someone wants to prove me wrong, come up with a Metro-styled, desktop-free, touch-friendly design for some of the programs I mentioned above. Seriously, I'm interested in what people can come up with because it is a major issue with the implementation thus far. If the desktop is dead in a few years there needs to be a sensible replacement for all of these programs.

I'm not disagreeing with Metro, I just think the execution so far is poorly thought out and rushed.

[jakem1]

Well if the PC is coming to an end then there is going to be very few apps and websites to use on these uber cool flippy touchscreen slide devices... The one thing I still see as an issue is how software such as Office, Visual Studio, Photoshop, Netbeans/Eclipse/Aptana, etc are going to work in the world of touch-centric devices. It even seems the answer for the next Office and VS so far is to give it a bland skin and run it on the desktop. :/

If someone wants to prove me wrong, come up with a Metro-styled, desktop-free, touch-friendly design for some of the programs I mentioned above. Seriously, I'm interested in what people can come up with because it is a major issue with the implementation thus far. If the desktop is dead in a few years there needs to be a sensible replacement for all of these programs.

I'm not disagreeing with Metro, I just think the execution so far is poorly thought out and rushed.

As Johnny said above, the desktop (and by extension the PC) is not going anywhere. There's no need to imagine Metro-styled, touch-centric versions of the apps you mentioned because it's not going to happen (or in the case of Office it's not going to replace the Office that you know and love).

I think you're misunderstanding the situation.

[n_K]

2. Keep using Windows 7, basically forever as Windows 9 will continue down the path Microsoft has set with 8

Microsoft has set with W8!? You even said yourself that it's beta software, you have NO IDEA what W8 will actually look like until it actually hits RTM, I'll give you a little history lesson; Windows Memphis supported up to 16 monitors, Windows 98 supported up to 2.

[.Neo]

iOS and OSX aren't converging are they? Well the CEO of Apple, Tim Cook, thinks otherwise but perhaps you have a better idea than he does... Here's a little interview he had with the Wall Street Journal:

[?] "So, anywhere where it makes sense, we are going to move that over to Mac." [?]

That's an extremely crucial part though: "Where it makes sense". Apple is only taking parts of iOS' functionality bringing it over to the Mac, tailoring it to the desktop in the process (for whatever reason with the exception of Launchpad; it isn't adapted at all and sucks on OS X because of that). Microsoft, on the other hand, treats desktops and tablets alike offering the exact same experience on both types of devices. To me Windows 8's Metro, in its current form, just doesn't make sense on the desktop. Just like how the traditional desktop doesn't make sense on a tablet, which is probably why Microsoft failed to be of much significance within that market.

Microsoft has set with W8!? You even said yourself that it's beta software, you have NO IDEA what W8 will actually look like until it actually hits RTM, I'll give you a little history lesson; Windows Memphis supported up to 16 monitors, Windows 98 supported up to 2.

When was the last time you saw the entire interface experience do a 180 between beta and RTM? Personally I haven't seen anything like that happen on either OS X or Windows.

[SubZenit]

The thing I don't get it, why is Microsoft making Visual Studio with Metro UI style, when it will be used on desktop? Where the native apps aren't Metro like, also the old users (I'm not one of those) of the Visual Basic will like the change? I mean those black and white icons? The brain is already used with colored icons, wich got a certain form, but about those black and white, I don't know... I feel like a lot of users won't like it.

What most of the users who love the Metro Start don't understand that some of us really don't want to be sended into a totally different envroinment every time we want to open Notepad.

Personally I like the Metro interface, and Microsoft convinced me to buy a Nokia Lumia 800, I am waiting to be released on Romania to get it, but on a Desktop, I don't know... Anyway this is my opinion...

[.Neo]

Personally I like the Metro interface, and Microsoft convinced me to buy a Nokia Lumia 800, I am waiting to be released on Romania to get it, but on a Desktop, I don't know... Anyway this is my opinion...

I feel the exact same way. My next phone will most likely be a WP one because I really enjoy Metro on such devices. On the other hand I find the Windows 8 experience on my 27-inch screen subpar compared to both OS X Lion's Aqua and Windows 7's Aero.

[cooky560 Veteran]

Yeah, that's true. I still think making a group of the 'small tools' on the start screen would be quicker to access. Group them on the start screen and put them at the very end if you don't use them that often. So:

Windows 7

- Press 'Windows key' or click the start menu

- Click on 'all programs'

- Scroll down until you find the folder

- Click on folder

- Find application and click on it

Windows 8

- Press 'Windows key'

- Press 'End' (on your keyboard)

- Select app from group

Windows 95 / 2000 / XP

- Press Windows Key, or click the start menu

- Click on Programs

- Click on Application

Windows 95/NT4/2000 - 2

-Press Win key + R

-Type "Progman"

-Click on Application

Mac OSX SL

-Click on the "A" button in the dock

-Click on Application

Mac OSX SL - 2

-Press CMD + Space

-Type Application Name

Just sayin' ;)

On the topic of Program Manager:

Similar much?