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Posted

Let me get this straight. One of the reasons so many people are still using Windows is, because that's what they're used to and they know how to get around it. Suddenly the iPad comes along and gets insanely popular, a device that you can sit people in front of who've never used it before and they'll figure it out in mere minutes. So as a response Microsoft is coming out with a system that the Windows-using population will have a problem getting used to, and which doesn't have a clear advantage over an iPad either?
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[quote name='CJEric' timestamp='1331572764' post='594724026']
Let me get this straight. One of the reasons so many people are still using Windows is, because that's what they're used to and they know how to get around it. Suddenly the iPad comes along and gets insanely popular, a device that you can sit people in front of who've never used it before and they'll figure it out in mere minutes. So as a response Microsoft is coming out with a system that the Windows-using population will have a problem getting used to, and which doesn't have a clear advantage over an iPad either?
[/quote]

That is a good example against any claims here that people are resistant to change. That is not true. People are resitant to crap not to good change. As you said good example is iPad. Apparently people didn't have problem adjusting and learning its interface. Why? Because it is bloody good despite my opinion about those devices and Apple in general. One thing i always credited Apple with is Style and Taste! They have the most brilliant designers.

[quote name='V23' timestamp='1331549685' post='594723162']
There will be a tutorial in the final build. People didn't know how to use a desktop at first...they learned. People didn't know how to use an iPhone/iPad at first...they learned. Windows 8 will be no different.
[/quote]

Probably there will be some Welcome Video Tutorial.

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Posted

[quote name='CJEric' timestamp='1331565197' post='594723636']
I'm not sure I get this. You think all of this is a [i]good[/i] thing?! And you expect users to be able and be willing to change in those ways? Why again?
[/quote]
[quote name='CJEric' timestamp='1331565197' post='594723636']
I'm not sure I get this. You think all of this is a [i]good[/i] thing?! And you expect users to be able and be willing to change in those ways? Why again?
[/quote]

Yes, I think everything's a good thing that forces users to use their PCs more counciosly and productively. Why? Because in the end it's better for everyone, even for the user.

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Posted

Here is the thing that everybody seems to be missing. All of these interface designs are perfect for tablet and phones. But NOT desktop computers.

The ones that use the iPad or any tablet are the ones that use it as a secondary device. I use it for just email and surfing. There are people that only use computers for emails and surfing/paying bills and so on. In that case, the metro UI will work for them on desktop computers.

However, desktop computers are most commonly used for more direct milti tasking. Having programs become full screen by default is very annoying. I would sometimes have two programs side by side (Thank you aero snap!) and I can work on both or compare something.

Then there is a very big issue going from one UI design to another constantly.

Also, yes it is very, VERY annoying having a full screen "start screen" whenever we go there. You lose part of your concentration when the entire screen is filled up. Do not bring up the fact that your focus will be on just the windows 7 start menu just as much. The fact is, I can still see 90% of my work from the corner of my eye.

I do not know how to explain it. What if I accidentally press the windows key in the middle of my Photoshop work. The past 20 years, I would get a small overlay at the bottom left that would be less annoying than 100% filled screen.

Also, keep in mind that people have jobs. SOME of those jobs have them sitting at a computer, probably still on Windows XP. Some people do not have the energy to memorize TWO ways of doing things because they work on Windows XP, and have Windows 8 at their home.

The Desktop UI does not need to be completely different. Take a look at Apple's new OS. Now, take a look 10 years ago at OS X 10.0. Notice something similar? The Dock is still there by default in Mountain Lion. Yes, they do have some iOS elements in the new OS. They are not as intrusive as the Metro UI elements are, and some are 100% completely optional.
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Posted

Look at Windows 95 that was a huge Change a Shift in the user experiance and it took awhile for it to become a standard . so here it is 2012 whether it was now or 5 years later at some point the user experience has to change no matter what at some point we would end up with the same type of Change we had from windows 3.1 to windows 95 and now with windows 8 we have that and it will only keep going that way over the next versions of windows cause 20 years from now Kids today or newborn Baby's that be in ther teens or older would laugh at windows 7s interface even windows 8 and wonder how we used them at all so Change has to happen and it is and has

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Posted

[quote name='Intrinsica' timestamp='1331554630' post='594723266']
I agree that there needs to be progression. But the idea of re-learning something isn't always a good thing, there needs to be a justification for it.

Example 1: We thought the Earth was flat. We learnt that it was spherical and changed our thinking. This is a good example of change and can be justified.

Example 2: Someone wakes up tomorrow and decides that he's going to walk around on his hands rather than his feet. He tells the rest of the world that this is the way of the future. Are you going to start walking around on your hands, or are you going to point out that it's not as convenient as the method before? This is an example of a bad change and cannot be justified (unless you don't have any legs, I guess).

My point is that not all change is bad, but not all change is good. Microsoft is trying to progress with Windows 8 by creating one operating system for all devices. I freely admit that I think it would work fine on a touch device, but for me it falls down when it comes to the desktop side of things. In order to cater for the touch market they have had to change the desktop side of things, and in my opinion it is not a change for the better.
[/quote]

To add to this, the change from windows xp/vista task bar to window 7s super bar is a good way to introduce new concepts and ideas. It's familiar enough to the older versions that you recognize how it should work (and you can make it work like older versions if you don't like it) but it's also different. Adds new functionality all the while presenting people with new ways of doing things in an intelligent way and isn't forced down peoples throats. Windows 8 is adapt or gtfo.

It's a good example of a change and evolution and it makes you wonder how they can get it so right in Windows 7 and fail so bad with Windows 8.

The bad part is that I want everything that windows 8 offers, just minus metro.
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Posted

[quote name='notuptome2004' timestamp='1331579188' post='594724282']the user experience has to change no matter what[...] Change has to happen and it is and has
[/quote]

Unless you can convincingly argue that the user experience has been [i]improved, [/i]there's nothing positive about change.

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Posted

The old man is using Windows XP. Going from XP to 8 is a big change. Even in desktop mode he had no idea what he was clicking.

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Posted

[quote name='bAsKeT cAsE' timestamp='1331582912' post='594724426']
Windows 8 has none of that and requires touch mostly, or a keyboard for shortcut keys. totally different.
[/quote]

What can be done with touch and not a mouse?

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Posted

[quote name='bAsKeT cAsE' timestamp='1331582912' post='594724426']
windows 3x and 95 still has the same basic user experience. Same type of UI. menu bars, etc. including the mouse being the main navigational tool.

Windows 8 has none of that and requires touch mostly, or a keyboard for shortcut keys. totally different.
So to keep passing off the complaints over windows 8 to being the same as the ones made over windows 95, xp, vista, 7, is just silly, because all those UIs were pretty much the same type of experience.

The UI is what it is today for a reason. Wasn't just some magical bunny that popped outta no where. It evolved to what it is by going through all these tests in the past, and what we ended up with is what worked and still does work best.

Metro might be great for touch, no one is denying that, but not on the desktop, and getting rid of what's already proven to work perfectly, and replacing it with something that simply does not, is just silly. and wrong,

Microsoft should've left the tradition desktop UI alone, and made a separate OS/UI for mobile/touch devices.
[/quote]


Guess what you still have the mouse and we have the Ribbon interface that exposes all of the menu function that were in the menu bar no more hidden items everything is exposed . and Windows 95 had a huge UI Face lift and how stuff worked Windows 3x series had menu drop down selection sure but the main sole way to open applications and or do anything was reliant on the File manager . Windows 95 changed that with the start menu and easy to use dialog boxes and one area for Regular consumers to go and find there Apps it makes since that change in the UI and system will change and windows 8 is the start of that.




the big issues i see is people who Hate change wont change same thing happened with windows 95 one of my Uncles did not upgrade from windows 3.1 even tho he built new hardware until 8 month or more after windows 98se was released he hated 95 but knew new programs would not support 3.1 for to much longer cause some of the programs he had still did so he upgraded finally and he was wrong on his impressions of the start menu so we have change now with windows 8 and the next versions of windows will continue that so Deal with it or Learn the Change

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Posted

[quote name='CJEric' timestamp='1331580048' post='594724314']
Unless you can convincingly argue that the user experience [b][i][u]has not [/u][/i][/b]been improved[i], [/i]there's nothing negative about change.
[/quote]

Right back at you, sir.

The only thing I see in this entire thread from both sides is opinion and personal preference. No one has yet offered any factual evidence to support their claims especially those against Windows 8. Y'all just simply say, I don't like it, looks ugly, less productive, will fail, etc.

That's fine if that's how you wish to argue. But, do understand that your arguments do not translate into certainty.

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Posted

[quote name='notuptome2004' timestamp='1331586665' post='594724608']
Guess what you still have the mouse and we have the Ribbon interface that exposes all of the menu function that were in the menu bar no more hidden items everything is exposed . and Windows 95 had a huge UI Face lift and how stuff worked Windows 3x series had menu drop down selection sure but the main sole way to open applications and or do anything was reliant on the File manager . Windows 95 changed that with the start menu and easy to use dialog boxes and one area for Regular consumers to go and find there Apps it makes since that change in the UI and system will change and windows 8 is the start of that.




the big issues i see is people who Hate change wont change same thing happened with windows 95 one of my Uncles did not upgrade from windows 3.1 even tho he built new hardware until 8 month or more after windows 98se was released he hated 95 but knew new programs would not support 3.1 for to much longer cause some of the programs he had still did so he upgraded finally and he was wrong on his impressions of the start menu so we have change now with windows 8 and the next versions of windows will continue that so Deal with it or Learn the Change
[/quote]

How can you draw the conclusion that because we don't like how the metro start screen works we "hate change"? I'm really curious to know. I've yet to see anyone explain why we need the metro start screen. Anything the metro start screen can do I can do right now just as easily if not more so. So what's the point? Why do we need to change? Please please please explain.

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Posted

As I'v said previously in a front-page post, they just need some first-run tutorial - for example the "Click here to begin" animation/arrow that slid along the taskbar in Windows 95 to point out the Start button.

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[quote name='Wyn6' timestamp='1331591756' post='594724836']
Right back at you, sir.
[/quote]


I didn't say there was anything inherently negative about change. [i]Of cours[/i]e there isn't.

I was responding to the claim that "the user experience has to change no matter what".
That's ridiculous. It doesn't, and it shouldn't, if it's just for the sake of change. It's simply a laughable position to take, that something is good [b]just[/b] because it's different, and that [i]not changing[/i] something (like the concept of windows on a desktop OS) is not even considered as an option anymore. No, no, it "[i]has[/i] to change". Why the f*** does it?

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Posted

I already posted this in another thread but here it is again for those who missed it:

Here's a quote from an actual Microsoft employee:

[quote name='Microsoft']
"I think a lot of pessimism around the web stems from people who think they'll just throw Windows 8 out to the masses and hope everyone figures things out on their own.

That couldn't be further from what will happen though. Even the Kindle Fire had a 10-15 step tutorial when I first turned it on.

Even the iPad integrates education right into their ads. Yeah, the iPad is a much simpler device than Windows 8, but there's still a lot of gestures to learn. 2/3/4-figure gestures, slide-down to notification center, double-tap home button right now, etc. There's a lot to learn.

There will undoubtedly be a ton of education integrated right into Windows 8 advertising, retail, web sites, and probably even some sort of tutorial when you first start using it too.

The hurdle is the education. Once you actually know how to use it, it's really easy and makes a lot of sense.
[/quote]
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[quote name='Morden' timestamp='1331546069' post='594723074']
so: I can belive that someone does NOT LIKE Win8 and does not want to buy it and use it; that's quite fine, I hate the design of OSX and would never want a mac, i don't care about Linux distros either - and no harm done; but if someone says that it is UNLEARNABLE or the learning itself causes pain or an irreal amount of time then the person in question is either very old or very unintelligent or simply exaggerates 'cause of the hatred toward the OS
[/quote]

it's not unlearnable, its just crap. Can't you at least accept that if there are so many forums and posts about how much people don't like the new interface that there might be something wrong with it. Every time i go back and use it i find there is something else that i can't use as well as windows 7. I can , and have, LEARNED how to use it, in fact i didn't have to be shown how to use it I just figured it out, but i still don't like it and i still think its not very good for every day desktop use. Come on picture trying to do some serious work on this, coding or graphics design. Have a few Word docs open, maybe photoshop and notepad, maybe some html editor .... press start.... ahhhh frustration, what was i looking for.... for example :p

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Posted

Apple and Microsoft are both getting bad about ui intuitiveness. To add a space in Lion you have to over to mouse over the top right corner to get a plus popout. There is nothing that tells you a popout exist unless you just happen to mouse over to the area that activates it.

Now I know but the first time it took me half an hour to figure out how to add a damn space when before all you had to do was go to system preferences. There should be some kind of visual alert that mousing to the corners does something.

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Posted

I think the video is spot on. A truly intuitive product is one where the basics are understood right away, not through tutorials, reading manuals or other forms of outside help. As such those "Charms" are extremely counter-intuitive because you won't be able to figure them out without an explanation. Now if they were used for some extra functionality it wouldn't be such an issue, but no, currently Microsoft is forcing you to use them in order to access very basic functions like going back to Start or shut down your PC. It's an usability disaster waiting to happen even if Microsoft adds tutorials to Windows 8.

Hell, a friend of mine did the same to me as the guy filming the video. All he said to me "You try turning off the PC [running Windows 8 CP]". After 5 minutes of searching I gave up and launched Internet Explorer tot Google for help. That's really not how an operating system should work.
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[quote name='matt4pack' timestamp='1331593810' post='594724880']
Apple and Microsoft are both getting bad about ui intuitiveness. To add a space in Lion you have to over to mouse over the top right corner to get a plus popout. There is nothing that tells you a popout exist unless you just happen to mouse over to the area that activates it.

Now I know but the first time it took me half an hour to figure out how to add a damn space when before all you had to do was go to system preferences.
[/quote]
There's some truth to that. The difference is, that we're talking about a fairly advanced feature here. One that doesn't even exist in Windows for example. Same with the iPad really. I bet many people don't even know about the iPad's multitasking feature, simply because they haven't figured out double-pressing the home button or using the gesture to get to it. So what? They're still getting around the OS, just a bit less efficiently. Because at least there is one obvious physical button on the front of the device that'll aways get them back to the home screen.
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Posted

[quote name='V23' timestamp='1331549685' post='594723162']
There will be a tutorial in the final build. People didn't know how to use a desktop at first...they learned. People didn't know how to use an iPhone/iPad at first...they learned. Windows 8 will be no different.
[/quote]

I've been using a computer for the last 20 years (as a kid and now as an adult), and I'm puttin bread and butter on my table with a computer (working at the NOC of a cable/internet/IP telephony provider).

I'm 30 and I don't have time to re-learn how to use a computer. My job is to be productive with my computer! It's not to learn how to use it all over again 20 years later 'cause someone at Microsoft decided the Start Menu is the wrong way to do things.

Windows 8 will flop big time. I don't see this "Frankeinstein" of an operating system getting installed in companies. Companies don't have time, money and ressources to waste with that.
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[quote name='Vice' timestamp='1331546387' post='594723082']
This video just proves everything I've been saying so far in all the Windows 8 threads on here. Normal people won't understand how to use it.
[/quote]

This is so true. For all the people talking about tutorials online, do you not think there aren't tutorials already for other Windows versions? The search on the Start menu is "new" to 90% of the people I show it too. Do you really think people will watch tutorials to learn how to use Windows 8? They won't even know how to get online to view the videos, lol.

For all these other issues, "you just need to press this key, or that key". The problem is that people use the mouse for everything, unless typing in word processor or a browser.

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[quote name='myxomatosis' timestamp='1331594222' post='594724890']
I've been using a computer for the last 20 years (as a kid and now as an adult), and I'm puttin bread and butter on my table with a computer (working at the NOC of a cable/internet/IP telephony provider).

I'm 30 and I don't have time to re-learn how to use a computer. My job is to be productive with my computer! It's not to learn how to use it all over again 20 years later 'cause someone at Microsoft decided the Start Menu is the wrong way to do things.

Windows 8 will flop big time. I don't see this "Frankeinstein" of an operating system getting installed in companies. Companies don't have time, money and ressources to waste with that.
[/quote]

You are aware that you can use it just about the same as windows 7, right? If you just want to use the desktop and not mess with the Metro stuff, all that will be different to you would be that the start menu looks different.

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Posted

After the learning curve I believe it can be quite intuitive :)

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[quote name='MidnightDevil' timestamp='1331594689' post='594724906']
After the learning curve I believe it can be quite intuitive :)
[/quote]
How can something be intuitive if there's a learning curve?
Of course, arguably, no computer interface is intuitive. They are all just learned.

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[quote name='CJEric' timestamp='1331594068' post='594724884']
There's some truth to that. The difference is, that we're talking about a fairly advanced feature here. One that doesn't even exist in Windows for example. Same with the iPad really. I bet many people don't even know about the iPad's multitasking feature, simply because they haven't figured out double-pressing the home button or using the gesture to get to it. So what? They're still getting around the OS, just a bit less efficiently. Because at least there is one obvious physical button on the front of the device that'll aways get them back to the home screen.
[/quote]
Exactly.

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