win8 Windows 8 - intuitive or not?

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

This is a video of Chris Pirillo's father trying to use Windows 8 for the first time:

(via ghacks.net, linked by Timan on IRC)

This is also the way many users will react to being faced with Windows 8 in its current state. Microsoft need to either change the Start Screen experience to make it more discoverable. Or force users through a first-run tutorial (and even then many users will struggle).

What are your thoughts? Discuss.

[notuptome2004]

umm Windows 8 will not be released until maby around November so i would assume right now Microsoft has a tutorial in the works as we speak . also ther is many videos how there showing how to use it now some from Microsoft

[migo]

Intuitiveness is a red herring. It's not about whether you can learn everything the first time you sit down to use a computer, but if you can remember how to do things after being taught once.

[johnporter29]

This was posted in another thread ... why do we get another flame bating thread about Windows 8? Isn't there enough already?

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

This was posted in another thread ... why do we get another flame bating thread about Windows 8? Isn't there enough already?

I didn't know it had been posted in another thread. Does it warrant a thread of its own? I believe so. Flamebait? Not really.

[Mohitster]

Intuitive or not? Not! Not in its current state.

[migo]

Nothing is intuitive. Apple hasn't released any intuitive products, they just released their tutorials as 30-second ads. Which is actually pretty brilliant marketing, as it acts as if you already have it.

[deleted_acc]

when I sat before my girfriends MacBook pro the first time no one told me of hot corners, so I was struggling... for 5 minutes approximately - on the OS with the "ultimate user experience" and which "just works"

when I sat before Windows 8 I was struggling... and again, for 5 minutes

anyone who says it's difficult is either too old to learn ANYTHING or hates the design so much that even trying is out of the question - like the asses I saw who won't even try a console's controller 'cause mouse and wasd is so holy for them they can't even imagine some other idea can work

so: I can belive that someone does NOT LIKE Win8 and does not want to buy it and use it; that's quite fine, I hate the design of OSX and would never want a mac, i don't care about Linux distros either - and no harm done; but if someone says that it is UNLEARNABLE or the learning itself causes pain or an irreal amount of time then the person in question is either very old or very unintelligent or simply exaggerates 'cause of the hatred toward the OS

[Vice]

This video just proves everything I've been saying so far in all the Windows 8 threads on here. Normal people won't understand how to use it.

[freedomx]

In certain aspects I believe windows 8 is trying to apear to be intuitive and easy to use os but I think that its going to take a lot more than a few clicks to make it feel that way, don't get me wrong I think its faster booting and the improvements under the hood are good but in relation to the over all use and flexibility of using the os its not up to scratch. I think my windows removing the Start orb they want it to make it more fluid but by doing so its lacking functionality in my opinion off course.

[johnporter29]

didnt you hear? If you don't agree that windows 8 is awesome then you're a flamebating troll, who doesnt understand technology, afraid of change, and is just like all the people who said windows vista was horrible. :rolleyes:

If you have to read a tutorial or watch a video on how to do basic tasks on anything, then its not intuitive at all.

the way windows is now is far more intuitive. You can easily find your way around the desktop.for example, all this guy would've had to do to open the start page in windows 7 and previous versions is to click the start button/icon. Simple. I know he could've simply hit the windows key on his keyboard, but that's not really being too intuitive now is it?

We all know that button is only there to screw up our full screen games :p

That is not what I was implying by my post. The intuitiveness of Windows 8 has been discussed to a pulp in at least 2 other threads on here, why do we need another thread that what will just end up been same. That's all I was trying to say.

On topic: I believe once everybody sits down in front of Windows 8 for themselves, forgetting everything they have read on here or been told by others, that they will actually realise that Windows 8 isn't as bad as people make out to be.

[+devHead Subscriber²]

This video should be shown to Sinofsky and the rest of the Windows Dev Team. Why in the world remove the familiar Start button and make it so you have to hover your mouse in corners to discover how to access the rest of the UI. That's just retarded if you ask me. To say nothing of the fact that it was still jarring to me to be switching between the Start screen and the Desktop, even after a week of using it. I don't know; maybe I need to give it a couple of months. But making nothing discoverable and the Start screen having no visible cue of how to return to it from the Desktop unless you hover your mouse in the bottom left corner (but why would you ever do that? the Start button is no more) or in the top right hand corner to display the 'Charms' bar (a UI feature that has never existed before and gives no indication on first use that such a thing even exists). Kind of insane.

[+unabatedshagie Subscriber¹]

didnt you hear? If you don't agree that windows 8 is awesome then you're a flamebating troll, who doesnt understand technology, afraid of change, and is just like all the people who said windows vista was horrible. :rolleyes:

If you have to read a tutorial or watch a video on how to do basic tasks on anything, then its not intuitive at all.

the way windows is now is far more intuitive. You can easily find your way around the desktop.for example, all this guy would've had to do to open the start page in windows 7 and previous versions is to click the start button/icon. Simple. I know he could've simply hit the windows key on his keyboard, but that's not really being too intuitive now is it?

We all know that button is only there to screw up our full screen games :p

Problem is "normal" users like him and many others don't use the keyboard for things like that. They use the mouse for almost everything. Like selecting text, you or I would probably hold shift and use the arrow keys to select text where as they will take their hands off the keyboard and use the mouse to select the text then press the delete key.

I've heard people say "use Alt+F4 to shutdown windows" as their reply when people say the shutdown button is hidden but IMO most "normal" users don't even know that Alt+F4 can be used to close programs let alone access shutdown when the desktop is the main focus.

[Muhammad Farrukh]

Now who' put this on?

The Microsoft.

They are trying to drive me to Mac

:rofl: :rofl:

But seriously, just hit the Windows key on Keyboard. That is what you are supposed to do when you are lost

[migo]

This video should be shown to Sinofsky and the rest of the Windows Dev Team. Why in the world remove the familiar Start button and make it so you have to hover your mouse in corners to discover how to access the rest of the UI. That's just retarded if you ask me. To say nothing of the fact that it was still jarring to me to be switching between the Start screen and the Desktop, even after a week of using it. I don't know; maybe I need to give it a couple of months. But making nothing discoverable and the Start screen having no visible cue of how to return to it from the Desktop unless you hover your mouse in the bottom left corner (but why would you ever do that? the Start button is no more) or in the top right hand corner to display the 'Charms' bar (a UI feature that has never existed before and gives no indication on first use that such a thing even exists). Kind of insane.

It's not easy at start, but all you need is someone to tell you about it once, and you're fine.

[V23]

There will be a tutorial in the final build. People didn't know how to use a desktop at first...they learned. People didn't know how to use an iPhone/iPad at first...they learned. Windows 8 will be no different.

[Nick H. Supervisor]

If they force the user through a first time tutorial then it won't be such a big deal - providing the user is willing to learn.

Something comes to mind though with the tutorial option. How much "new learning" will be required for users? Ok, so in the video's scenario the father will learn that he can return to the "start menu" by either going to the bottom left corner, or by going over to the right side of the screen. But what if the tutorial then starts telling him about the masses of keyboard shortcuts that are available to "make life easier"? Is he going to be able to remember each one of those shortcuts after the first tutorial? I doubt it, and that means that he won't get the "full experience" of Windows 8. Heck, I tried just working through my keyboard and seeing what each combination might do. Once I had finished, I tried testing myself by trying to do something simple, and I couldn't remember which combination would do it, so I had to work back through my keyboard again to try and find the right one.

And finally, continuing with the idea of the shortcut keys: a normal user doesn't always use the shortcut keys. Some don't even know that there are shortcut keys. I don't think I know all the shortcut keys for Windows XP, and it's been around for quite a few years now. Trying to say that "once you learn the shortcut keys it's fine" is valid if you're used to using shortcut keys, but for those that continue to rely on their mouse it's more difficult.

Is Windows 8 intuitive? No. Not in my opinion.

Compare this to previous versions of Windows. Each one has been slightly different, but the amount of new learning has been minimal. It has made it easy for users to go, "this looks different, but I can still work. Oh hey, and look at this new feature. That makes life easier!" Windows 8 changes many things, and it left me with the idea, "great, now I can't do anything until I've learnt about all the new changes and features."

[deleted_acc]

If they force the user through a first time tutorial then it won't be such a big deal - providing the user is willing to learn.

Something comes to mind though with the tutorial option. How much "new learning" will be required for users? Ok, so in the video's scenario the father will learn that he can return to the "start menu" by either going to the bottom left corner, or by going over to the right side of the screen. But what if the tutorial then starts telling him about the masses of keyboard shortcuts that are available to "make life easier"? Is he going to be able to remember each one of those shortcuts after the first tutorial? I doubt it, and that means that he won't get the "full experience" of Windows 8. Heck, I tried just working through my keyboard and seeing what each combination might do. Once I had finished, I tried testing myself by trying to do something simple, and I couldn't remember which combination would do it, so I had to work back through my keyboard again to try and find the right one.

And finally, continuing with the idea of the shortcut keys: a normal user doesn't always use the shortcut keys. Some don't even know that there are shortcut keys. I don't think I know all the shortcut keys for Windows XP, and it's been around for quite a few years now. Trying to say that "once you learn the shortcut keys it's fine" is valid if you're used to using shortcut keys, but for those that continue to rely on their mouse it's more difficult.

Is Windows 8 intuitive? No. Not in my opinion.

Compare this to previous versions of Windows. Each one has been slightly different, but the amount of new learning has been minimal. It has made it easy for users to go, "this looks different, but I can still work. Oh hey, and look at this new feature. That makes life easier!" Windows 8 changes many things, and it left me with the idea, "great, now I can't do anything until I've learnt about all the new changes and features."

your right, this version is much more different from the predecessors than before but really, is that a problem? theres a few times in a lifetime when you need to re-learn something "basic" and can't expect the whole world to wait on you or piggyback all the old stuff for confort: if MS would do that Windows would come on 6 disks and would be the Wing Commander of our time - the app developers would have to write apllications for 4-5 UI concepts, users would have to learn to differenciate between product versions which differ only in their UIs

Win95 was a great transition user interface-wise, Win8 is a same jump - people will cope; users cry even if an icon gets changed or a menu renamed - for the shortcuts, I wouldn't care a bit: most users don't even do generic shortcuts like ctrl+a or win+r and seen only a handful of human beings who use aero snap - that does not makes these features useless or difficult to use and wouldn't even say unintuitive

[Nick H. Supervisor]

your right, this version is much more different from the predecessors than before but really, is that a problem? theres a few times in a lifetime when you need to re-learn something "basic" and can't expect the whole world to wait on you or piggyback all the old stuff for confort...

I agree that there needs to be progression. But the idea of re-learning something isn't always a good thing, there needs to be a justification for it.

Example 1: We thought the Earth was flat. We learnt that it was spherical and changed our thinking. This is a good example of change and can be justified.

Example 2: Someone wakes up tomorrow and decides that he's going to walk around on his hands rather than his feet. He tells the rest of the world that this is the way of the future. Are you going to start walking around on your hands, or are you going to point out that it's not as convenient as the method before? This is an example of a bad change and cannot be justified (unless you don't have any legs, I guess).

My point is that not all change is bad, but not all change is good. Microsoft is trying to progress with Windows 8 by creating one operating system for all devices. I freely admit that I think it would work fine on a touch device, but for me it falls down when it comes to the desktop side of things. In order to cater for the touch market they have had to change the desktop side of things, and in my opinion it is not a change for the better.

[NinjaGinger]

So everything has to be learned again. It looks like that anyways. Not only would I have to learn for myself, my mum just would not be able to handle it. For the first time ever, I think I will skip an operating system. Yea I know its beta and yes they will still work on it but when Windows 7 was in beta, I had a pretty good idea what it will be like when finished. As I have said before, it appears to me that Microsoft has forgotten desktop PCs. Phone or tablet, brilliant, desktop PC not so much. I really hope I'm wrong.

[deleted_acc]

I agree that there needs to be progression. But the idea of re-learning something isn't always a good thing, there needs to be a justification for it.

Example 1: We thought the Earth was flat. We learnt that it was spherical and changed our thinking. This is a good example of change and can be justified.

Example 2: Someone wakes up tomorrow and decides that he's going to walk around on his hands rather than his feet. He tells the rest of the world that this is the way of the future. Are you going to start walking around on your hands, or are you going to point out that it's not as convenient as the method before? This is an example of a bad change and cannot be justified (unless you don't have any legs, I guess).

My point is that not all change is bad, but not all change is good. Microsoft is trying to progress with Windows 8 by creating one operating system for all devices. I freely admit that I think it would work fine on a touch device, but for me it falls down when it comes to the desktop side of things. In order to cater for the touch market they have had to change the desktop side of things, and in my opinion it is not a change for the better.

for an average computer user progress equals change equals re-learning which by definition cannot be a GOOD thing, just a necessity or if lucky, choice - that's how I see it... most users will just huff and puff about the changes then cope with the ones they cannot evade and bypass the ones they can or do not need

i really think with the Start Screen, superbar and desktop all being apart users must learn to be much more organized then before when just filling the start menu and the desktop with clutter; a much more conscous, more organized and more self-aware user is needed who KNOWS what he/she wants to reach with one click after bootup, what can wait for a scroll or two, what needs to be searched and what is needed on the superbar and the desktop - it will need some learning (or more to the point, a paradigm shift in computer usage for the average guy) but i really believe that at the end a more organized user will emerge

[deleted_acc]

oh and one more thing: the CP is a beta, and not like the almost-feature-ready Win7 builds but a real beta where i think feedback is needed very much; i also have plenty of problems with W8 and providing feedback as crazy

so no sweat, i'm pretty sure that the current state of Windows 8 does not represent the RTM... and i think mostly the UI, hot corners, animations etc.

[DKAngel]

i have to admin i am liking win8 and its **** easy to navigate with a mouse and keyboard, anyone who thinks its just for tablets is retarded

[Active.]

i really think with the Start Screen, superbar and desktop all being apart users must learn to be much more organized then before when just filling the start menu and the desktop with clutter; a much more conscous, more organized and more self-aware user is needed who KNOWS what he/she wants to reach with one click after bootup, what can wait for a scroll or two, what needs to be searched and what is needed on the superbar and the desktop

I'm not sure I get this. You think all of this is a good thing?! And you expect users to be able and be willing to change in those ways? Why again?

[Wyn6]

I'm not sure I get this. You think all of this is a good thing?! And you expect users to be able and be willing to change in those ways? Why again?

Here's the thing. Change has to happen. In all walks of life, change must occur. As they say, change is constant. True not all change is good change yet it still comes to pass. While not a fact, I speculate we will not be using computers the same way in 20 years as we do now. We will not have the same UI (if we do, that will be sad in my opinion). Things WILL change. Microsoft may then be seen as a pioneer or a mere catalyst. We don't know.

And, here's a revelation... with change comes a learning curve. People had to learn to drive cars, fly planes, use electric ovens, disco (sorry) program VCRs, AND use computers in the first place.

If you sit a person, who has never used a computer in their life, in front of a desktop with Windows 7 on it, it's not intuitive at all. They have no clue how to use it. They would first start tapping on the keyboard to see if that did anything as it's right in front of them. They may even ignore the mouse altogether or start messing with it if they failed to get anywhere with the keyboard.

If they did grab the mouse they would soon notice the pointer goes where they drag. But, there's an empty screen with what looks like a basket on it. Let's drag the mouse pointer to that. Hmm. Nothing happened. IF they accidentally pressed a mouse button and somehow thought to click once the pointer was on this basket, that would still do nothing unless it was a right-click. Then they would be getting somewhere.

But, for the first few minutes it would be befuddling. If someone were to show them, or there was a tutorial or pop-ups, something letting them know how to do it, it would be much easier. The reason some of you think 7 is so intuitive is because you've been computing most if not all of your lives.

Good thing is, with 8 people already know how to use a mouse and keyboard. So, now we just gotta figure out the rest. Not to mention, we don't know what's going to change between now and RTM. Mouse to the right or left edge of screen to make Charms and Preview Pane pop up. Mouse to the bottom of the screen to make all context menus pop up. Who knows? I don't.

Bye.