win8 Windows 8 Start button isn't coming back, but there will be a tutorial

[MorganX]

Start Button is still there and it is located on Charm bar which i do not understand. It is clunky and have hard time with mouse to make it appear on screen and it is so on right side of screen that i get carpet tunnel syndrom in my wrist. What's up with showing Time on your desktop when Charm Bar is invoked? I do not understand thinking behind Windows 8 UI because logically makes no sense.

I think perhaps it's just another visual cue to let you know that you've activated the Charm bar. Apparently MS is aware people with activate it unintentionally quite a bit.

[Dot Matrix]

Redundancy isn't necessarily a bad thing. Also why do you keep going on and on about the Start MENU? The thread title talks about the Start BUTTON only and so does the the linked article. There's no mentioning of the Start MENU anywhere. Purely about the Start BUTTON being replaced completely by a OS X-like hot corner or Charm. I'm talking about that you should be able to pin a Start BUTTON to the task bar to bring up the Start SCREEN, similar to how I can add Launchpad to the OS X Dock.

Ok, if you're talking about the Start BUTTON, then there is already TWO of them on the Windows Desktop - Heck they're even available on the Metro Start Screen. There is nothing wrong with the hot corners. Pinning a Start Button to the taskbar reduces the number of apps you can pin to the taskbar. Why do that when I can pin one more app to the bar?

[HawkMan]

Metro is not bad but Desktop implementation of Metro is wrong. Simply put, Metro is not for PC. In mobile world works and it is fine interface. Can you use Desktop interface on your little Windows Phone? Nope you cannot because it is unusable, same applies for Metro on my big 27" LCD connected to PC. MS mixed apples and oranges and it is really not hard to understand.

How is metro unusable?

It works great, bett than the start menu as what 99.99% of users use n the start menu according to MS own usage stats is the pinned apps. Metro is all about the pinned apps, but now you can have a lot more of them, they're easier and faster to find, and you can grup them and position them as you wish. And this you have super quick access to over 40 apps with muscle memory to launch them in a fraction of the time and distraction the non full screen start menu would pull away from the concentration of the ADHD crowd who hosts they're unable to get back to work in photoshop after opening metro for half a second. Then again again, anyone with a decent workflow would have all the stuff they needed opened before they start working or the most critical aps pinned to the Superbar.

[Active.]

Oh, hey look! A start button!

If that's a button, how come it vanishes when you try to click on it? I guess you could argue that ~20% of it are a "start button" that only becomes visible when you move your mouse into the corner. Kind of a weird way to look at it though.

[Rickkins]

Must every thread end with ultra-pro Metro people resorting to personal attacks and pointlessness just cuz?

Yes, because it is all they have, and frankly is quite indicative of this board.

[Dot Matrix]

If that's a button, how come it vanishes when you try to click on it? I guess you could argue that ~20% of it are a "start button" that only becomes visible when you move your mouse into the corner. Kind of a weird way to look at it though.

Why is it vanishing for you? It doesn't for me.

[Active.]

Why is it vanishing for you? It doesn't for me.

Really? Even if you move the mouse cursor outside of the encircled area? :

[Dot Matrix]

Really? Even if you move the mouse cursor outside of the encircled area? :

That's because it's a "Hot Corner", you move the cursor away from the corner, and yes, it'll disappear. Personally, I think the whole "window" should stay as long as your cursor is on it, but it's still not that hard to click on.

[MorganX]

Start Button is still there and it is located on Charm bar which i do not understand. It is clunky and have hard time with mouse to make it appear on screen and it is so on right side of screen that i get carpet tunnel syndrom in my wrist. What's up with showing Time on your desktop when Charm Bar is invoked? I do not understand thinking behind Windows 8 UI because logically makes no sense.

I also think the sensitivity of the Charm and Previous App bar could use tuning. Particularly the previous app bar. What a mess that is. I hate it and glad it's not on tablets. At least it didn't show on my HP Slate 500. The Charm bar is pretty sweet on a tablet with the tumb swipe. It's OK on Desktop, would be nice if you could move it around like Taskbar, but with previous app bar, not feasible ... :/

[MorganX]

Windows mobile, only truly smart prone OS of its time, and reigned spreme in that market untill iPhone. When people wanted simplicity over power and customizability... Hmm seems fair, maybe they learnt something from this

Zune, took a small but still very significant percentage of the us PMP market, especially in numbers.

Internet explorer, still most used Webb browser, and 9 and 10 is growing.

Longhorn was redone into vista which was the best seling windows OS before 7. And still a very good OS.

Windows 7 on tablets was a very successfull product for IT'S niche market, which is not the pad market, but professional business use that needs the security of the OS and artists who needs a tablet and to a finger paint pad.

Not being shared by the public doesn't mean failure, especially since for many it wasn't the intention, and for Zune, ie and longhorn/vista just not true, heck the"public" didn't even know about longhorn.

Just differing opinion here but Windows Mobile never reigned. I think Blackberries cleaned its clock. It did OK, but because of the horrendous UI (non touch UI on touch devices), it was easy for iOS to obliterate it, then android, now with a superior product, there is a mountain to climb. But this is one I think MS will win.

IE was always a good idea, but only a good product from v7 on.

I don't think Zune failed either. They finally got it right but by then PMPs as a viable market got obliterated by smartphones and iPhone in particular.

I do consider Vista a failure by Desktop and Windows standards. Preinstall sales are deceptive.

MS' Pen and Tablet computing was successful in vertical markets but in general, were failures. Again, non-touch optimized OS on touch device.

The real flops though were Microsoft Bob and WindowsMe, and Vista (though technically sound).

[Som]

i think people are missing the point here.... no one cares about a stupid button , its the start "menu" that we want back not this silly start "screen"....

[MorganX]

That's because it's a "Hot Corner", you move the cursor away from the corner, and yes, it'll disappear. Personally, I think the whole "window" should stay as long as your cursor is on it, but it's still not that hard to click on.

I don't know why you feel the need to be so apologetic or accept something unacceptable. It needs tweaking. All that extra control all day is annoying and while you and I may think its a silly notion that having to do it repetitively can increase cases of carpal tunnel, the reality is, in many places it will. It needs tweaking and hopefully before RTM it will get it.

[MorganX]

Really? Even if you move the mouse cursor outside of the encircled area? :

I think you're being EXTREMELY generous. Cut that hot area in half, for the whole prev app bar.

[HawkMan]

Just differing opinion here but Windows Mobile never reigned. I think Blackberries cleaned its clock. It did OK, but because of the horrendous UI (non touch UI on touch devices), it was easy for iOS to obliterate it, then android, now with a superior product, there is a mountain to climb. But this is one I think MS will win.

IE was always a good idea, but only a good product from v7 on.

I don't think Zune failed either. They finally got it right but by then PMPs as a viable market got obliterated by smartphones and iPhone in particular.

I do consider Vista a failure by Desktop and Windows standards. Preinstall sales are deceptive.

MS' Pen and Tablet computing was successful in vertical markets but in general, were failures. Again, non-touch optimized OS on touch device.

The real flops though were Microsoft Bob and WindowsMe, and Vista (though technically sound).

No, ie was always a good product. That's why it killed Netscape, not because it was included with windows. After all at tha point in time any computer was, especially with Internet, was an enthusiast that knew what a browser was. Ie6 sucked because it was neglected, but when it was new and for a long time after it was the best.

Vista may have succeded primarily in pre install. BUT that's the case with ALL windows versions, people don't upgrade. Heck the don't even upgrade their android phones,much less a big confusing computer.

Tablets where and are more touch devices, though some new ones are both touch and tablet. And they where NEVER marketed at the touch market segment. So you can't claim the failed Ina market it wasn't even in.

No one even knows what bob was though. And that's going a it far back in time, a for Me while I myself refused to use it, a lot of people did and it worked for them it even introduced a lot of the new functions that later would be major points in xp.

As for windows mobile it and blackberry co-existed just fine. Though you have to remember BB was US only. They also weren't touch devices, but pen devices. Touch didn't really work very well back then either. It was only with the iPhone that capacitive touch screen really got usable. And even then the iPhone wasn't even a smart phone, and wasn't marketed as such either.

[pack34]

I think you're being EXTREMELY generous. Cut that hot area in half, for the whole prev app bar.

Actually, that's spot on. I just tested it out on my machine. The preview doesn't disappear until after your cursor has completely crossed the light grey border. To maintain consistency with the corners, the start preview does need to disappear when you move away from the corner. If it didn't then it would work differently than the system hot corners on the right.

[HawkMan]

I don't know why you feel the need to be so apologetic or accept something unacceptable. It needs tweaking. All that extra control all day is annoying and while you and I may think its a silly notion that having to do it repetitively can increase cases of carpal tunnel, the reality is, in many places it will. It needs tweaking and hopefully before RTM it will get it.

Best way to avoid carpal tunnel is to use the keyboard more... And oh, look, there's a windows key there ;)

[vincent]

Windows 8 is doomed for failure.

[MorganX]

Best way to avoid carpal tunnel is to use the keyboard more... And oh, look, there's a windows key there ;)

For arguments sake, let's say you're right. MS just created 4 hotspots and 3 bars to replace none and one dramatically increasing the chances of carpal tunnel.

I actually think it will be tweaked and won't be an issue. All the bars and movement ... we'll see. Again, Metro isn't "that" bad. If the apps come, a lot of annoyances and extra dragging and this and that will be forgiven. It's all about the apps.

[HawkMan]

Actually I'm pretty sure it's doomed to sell millions on new laptops, desktops, and slate/pad devices. As well as millions on upgrades for the more tetchy people who do that, and a few business who are in an upgrade cycle during the period after win8 goes for sale and before win9 is out in another couple of years.

[MorganX]

No, ie was always a good product. That's why it killed Netscape, not because it was included with windows.

We'll have to agree to disagree with that. I was in ClubIE. MS Al Caponed Netscape with every trick and evangelist in the book. ActiveX and DHTML were better, but prior to IE 7, if I hadn't been a die-hard guy making a living off Microsoft Technology .... Ancient history but during the browser wars, DOS wars, and probably a few others, MS was a ruthless predator, and I was cheering them on :).

[HawkMan]

Carpal tunnel is more about how you hold the mouse and not how much you use it though. Just hold it comfortably and don't follow all the guides on how to properly hold it and you'll be fine. Just like sitting in an office chair where for years they preached on proper seating position untill they realized jus letting people sit as they felt comfortable was better.

Slate devices themselves are a much bigger risk for carpal tunnel, since there's much bigger movements, you can't use small movement, and you can hold your hand comfortably on a nice comfy mouse. You have to move it awkwardly all over the device. So far it hasn't caused much of an increase in carpal tunnel though, about the same percentage as in mouse users.

Incidentally most carpal tunne comes not from mouse use, but from moving your hand repeatedly between the keyboard and mouse. Hence the stupid mouse traps.

[Calum Veteran]

Indeed. And it is still very much needed and will be for quite some time. Which is why it is curious to see people arguing for the Desktop to die, and how Metro is superior to it, and then when anyone brings up criticism against Metro, the same people refer one to the desktop side that is still there. :wacko:

As DotMatrix implied, I think most of us are suggesting that the Desktop should die once Metro has matured enough. It's also important that more people become used to the Metro experience and that some of the more complex apps (Photoshop, Visual Studio etc.) can be developed as Metro apps, before the Desktop dies. I haven't seen anyone who believes the Desktop should die suggest that the Desktop should not be included in Windows 8, which is why we point out that it's still there for those of you who are not yet happy with the Metro experience.

[HawkMan]

We'll have to agree to disagree with that. I was in ClubIE. MS Al Caponed Netscape with every trick and evangelist in the book. ActiveX and DHTML were better, but prior to IE 7, if I hadn't been a die-hard guy making a living off Microsoft Technology .... Ancient history but during the browser wars, DOS wars, and probably a few others, MS was a ruthless predator, and I was cheering them on :).

They where. But the majority of users chose ie because it was a better product. I the years 95 to 2000 the majority of Internet user where enthusiasts with more than enough knowledge to find and download a better browser. And all of them knew of at east both ie and Netscape. Heck most of them used Netscape before choosing to switch to ie when it came around as a better product. MS was still ruthless in the background, and that's what caused a lot of problems for the later on. The irony is that they would have achieved the same victor without all the behind the scenes ruthlessness, just by having a bette product.

And had they kept working on ie after 6 the would have never lost as much as they did to Firefox, as it's called today.

[BajiRav]

We'll have to agree to disagree with that. I was in ClubIE. MS Al Caponed Netscape with every trick and evangelist in the book. ActiveX and DHTML were better, but prior to IE 7, if I hadn't been a die-hard guy making a living off Microsoft Technology .... Ancient history but during the browser wars, DOS wars, and probably a few others, MS was a ruthless predator, and I was cheering them on :).

I4, IE 5.5 and IE6 all were leading browsers when they were new. IE6 was neglected and that's where the troubles with standards began.

[JaredFrost]

You guys really need to get over this crap. Seriously, this nonsense is getting old. Things change. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but they change. The 9x launcher is gone. Fine, whatever. In it's place we have a better Start Screen. the quicker we can all accept that and move on, the better. Those who have worked with computers a while should know this. You guys are ****ing and moaning over 17 year old computing paradigm, that has been a little outdated for some time now. The mouse doesn't reign supreme anymore.

I can see why people moan about the WinRT apps, but the start screen is more highly functional and more customizable than the Start Menu could ever be. And to those who say they "live" in the Start Menu, I wish would get real. Honestly, how many times a day do you click into it? I click into it at least maybe 5 times TOTAL, per day. Some "distraction".

Because it's redundant! The Start Screen does everything the Start Menu did and then some! There's no need for the old menu.

So the start screen can be reduced to take up less than a quarter of the screen and have installed programs in list format?

Just because something changed doesn't mean it's better and certainly doesn't mean we should just accept it and move on

If that's how it worked nothing would actually change, because we'd all just accept things how they are.