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Likelyhood of the next xbox inculding a blu-ray drive?

blu-ray format war microsft xbox next gen

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#181 Emn1ty

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 21:10

failed to get the point completely didn't you.

yes they are cheaper. eexcept in real stores these are rarely the prices console games release for, hand held games however rarely get below rrp. anyway, the pount is that a game that costs 50-100 times lss tomake should also have a similar price drop to consumer not a 25% difference,on a good day.

Um, in "real" stores like what? Target? They still retail for $59.99 (seeing as I worked there for a year and a half in the electronics department). I don't understand why you don't get the difference between "retail" and "sale". Just because a game is selling for $39.99 doesn't make it a $39.99 game. Its a $59.99 on sale for $39.99. Also: Nintendo is notorious for not dropping the prices of any of their first party titles, be it handheld or console. It took until Super Mario Galaxy 2 was released for the first one to even lose $5 off its price (I think that was almost 3 years!). Hence why your example is a poor one. PSP games went on sale quite a lot, in fact. Target even put some of the 1st party nintendo titles on sale (usually only when the newer ones were already announced, however). That is a Nintendo issue, not a handheld issue.


#182 HawkMan

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 21:13

the nintendo first party title wasn't the highest priced game, my point was that is was one of the simplest.

hwoever your turn it though. hand held games shoudln't in relation to their dev costs cost half as much as they do. UNLESS they're paying a very high premium on the media due to higher production costs.

just the memory chips themselves are more expensive than a disc, then there the far more delicate and lengthy procedure to programeach cartridge compared to discs.

#183 Emn1ty

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 00:00

the nintendo first party title wasn't the highest priced game, my point was that is was one of the simplest.

hwoever your turn it though. hand held games shoudln't in relation to their dev costs cost half as much as they do. UNLESS they're paying a very high premium on the media due to higher production costs.

just the memory chips themselves are more expensive than a disc, then there the far more delicate and lengthy procedure to programeach cartridge compared to discs.

I still think you're talking out your arse here. I won't doubt that discs are cheaper, but I doubt they are $5-$10 more expensive per copy to warrant such a price increase. The price difference wouldn't be that drastic on the distributor end, not to mention the prices are a significant bit cheaper. Your arbitrarily chosen rule of "half" is just dumb as well. Why does it half to be "half" the price of console games? Where did you get that figure? Its already 1/3 cheaper, why must it be half? And how did you even come up with the idea that handheld games take 50-100 times less time and money to make? Really, you're just throwing out numbers from nowhere, not even comprehending what it takes to make a game. There are many games that take just as much time and effort to create, games like KH handheld games, Monster Hunter, etc. Just because a large number of the releases for the 3DS's are shovelware (most of which retail for $29.99, not $39.99) doesn't mean everything takes half a brain and a dumb gimmick to make.

#184 dnast

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 02:41

As far as console game prices I think you two should consider your respective locations. From what I've seen, in Europe games get nice discounts from the start and in NA, not so much. IIRC, it took over 2 years (maybe 3?) for Oblivion to drop to $49.99 in the US. Also, you pretty much have no choice but to buy new games from large retail chains in most of the US (as far as I can tell).

Anyway, back on topic: I'd be surprised if there was no Blu-ray support in the next Xbox. If they don't allow playback of Blu-ray movies (which I doubt) I'd expect them to still use the same or similar tech. Now if they could pull off using ROM carts without increasing the price of games I'd be all for it.

#185 BajiRav

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 03:26

PS3 and 360 almost ALL retail for $59.99 (even crappy movie games: http://www.gamestop....attleship/98957 ). And that's still a $20 difference, which is a LOT.

I haven't bought a new game in last few years at retail price. Whenever I pre-ordered, I either had a $20 store credit or a straight $20 off. (courtesy newegg/amazon with release-day delivery for free ;) )

#186 HawkMan

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 05:34

I still think you're talking out your arse here. I won't doubt that discs are cheaper, but I doubt they are $5-$10 more expensive per copy to warrant such a price increase. The price difference wouldn't be that drastic on the distributor end, not to mention the prices are a significant bit cheaper. Your arbitrarily chosen rule of "half" is just dumb as well. Why does it half to be "half" the price of console games? Where did you get that figure? Its already 1/3 cheaper, why must it be half? And how did you even come up with the idea that handheld games take 50-100 times less time and money to make? Really, you're just throwing out numbers from nowhere, not even comprehending what it takes to make a game. There are many games that take just as much time and effort to create, games like KH handheld games, Monster Hunter, etc. Just because a large number of the releases for the 3DS's are shovelware (most of which retail for $29.99, not $39.99) doesn't mean everything takes half a brain and a dumb gimmick to make.


How I came up with the rule.

Well for one, The games have generally far shorter and smaller level, meaning far smaller time to make the level, there's also MUCH MUCH less items and stuff in the levels (they're also less detailed but let's get to that later), meaning even less time to make the levels. they also avoid stretchign the levels beyond playable area and rather use the skybox/matte's for distance stuff.

Secondly, Models, They're far less detailed, and far quicker to make, there's also far less of them, with smaller shorter games on smaller formats there's less unique objects.So far less time spent modelling

Thirdly, Textures. Not even close to the amount, and they're lower res, though this may or may not matter depending on the game type, some games the texturs are drawn specifically for the res, but generally textures are made in far higher res than even the full console games can support or even PC and then scaled down. On handhelds though, they often need to be specially drawn at low res in order to have any visible detail on such small screens.

Fourth. Coding, Depends on the game, but at least with Mario it's safe to assume that the coding is nowhere as complex as Halo. but this is a point where the differences aren't necessarily huge

Fifth. QnA. Smaller games, and less complex games, means far less QnA

Add it all up and compare a game like Mario to Halo and you have somewhere between 50 to 100 times less Dev time (counted in man hours, with smaller teams the actual "time" from they start it till it's done will be the same.)For other games the difference will probably be closer to 10 times less. But still a significantly bigger difference in man hours of dev time/resources than the difference in price.

#187 Emn1ty

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 06:12

Well for one, The games have generally far shorter and smaller level, meaning far smaller time to make the level, there's also MUCH MUCH less items and stuff in the levels (they're also less detailed but let's get to that later), meaning even less time to make the levels. they also avoid stretchign the levels beyond playable area and rather use the skybox/matte's for distance stuff.

The creative process cannot be quantified. A smaller level can be more/less detailed which means the props within could have taken longer/shorter to make. It's all relative.

Secondly, Models, They're far less detailed, and far quicker to make, there's also far less of them, with smaller shorter games on smaller formats there's less unique objects.So far less time spent modelling

Less detail doesn't mean easier to make. Also, with how modells and props are made you only ever need to make something once with a couple texture variations and then duplicate it throughout the level. Sure if you have more "content" then that's a different story but most levels are fleshed out with duplicate models and "clutter" objects.

Thirdly, Textures. Not even close to the amount, and they're lower res, though this may or may not matter depending on the game type, some games the texturs are drawn specifically for the res, but generally textures are made in far higher res than even the full console games can support or even PC and then scaled down. On handhelds though, they often need to be specially drawn at low res in order to have any visible detail on such small screens.

Lower res also doesn't make them easier to make. In fact, its harder to make lower resolution textures identifiable. Which is a counterpoint that you, yourself pointed out meaning that it takes longer to make the textures for handhelds and adds to their dev time, not subtracts from it.

Fourth. Coding, Depends on the game, but at least with Mario it's safe to assume that the coding is nowhere as complex as Halo. but this is a point where the differences aren't necessarily huge

The "coding" is called programming, and it is as complex as needed. Don't forget that games can not only be scripted in an engine but the engine could be made from scratch and regardless of how complex an engine is that is no easy task and can takes months to make.

Fifth. QnA. Smaller games, and less complex games, means far less QnA

Not necessarily. The games get as much Q/A as they can/want.

Add it all up and compare a game like Mario to Halo and you have somewhere between 50 to 100 times less Dev time (counted in man hours, with smaller teams the actual "time" from they start it till it's done will be the same.)For other games the difference will probably be closer to 10 times less. But still a significantly bigger difference in man hours of dev time/resources than the difference in price.

Adding it all up comes down to the game and how much time the art takes to be produced. Art isn't as easy as hitting a button. All styles and kinds have different difficulty levels and nuances. Just because something looks "simple" doesn't mean it is simple to make. The length of a game, the size of a level and the detail of a model do not directly represent how much dev time it took to be produced.

#188 The Teej

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 18:41

Hawkman are you a games designer/developer? I'd really love for you to share more of your insight with us!

#189 Ryoken

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 19:01

Yes, the next Xbox will have a Blu-ray drive.

The cloud is not an option for a very large segment of the population both in the US, and worldwide. Caps and slow download speeds would kill it for a lot of people. How would you like it if you can only play one or two games a month, because downloading them kills your cap, or takes a week ? The new games aren't gonna be 2gb.. they are probably gonna be 20-50, if not more..

Royalties ? Really ? MS and Sony each pay each other truck loads in Royalties each year. I assure you, adding a BD drive would not make much of a dent, but would allow for the Xbox to become a better media center, and make for more complex games, and more love from players and devs alike for not having to deal with extra disc's..

Hell I would bet Sony would even offer a discount to MS for having BD Drives.. the more homes with them, the more people who will buy Bluray disc's, and movies..

#190 ~Johnny

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 19:29

Hawkman are you a games designer/developer? I'd really love for you to share more of your insight with us!


Given his postings, I'd assume not - considering I actually am a games programmer :p

He also probably doesn't play Mario games at that - take Mario Galaxy 2, which has about 40-50 unique levels / worlds, many of which actually have multiple goals, and takes about 30 hours to completely playthrough and experience - versus' the 8 hour Halo Storyline over a lot less unique worlds.

There's a great difference in how they're designed too - platforms have painstakingly designed levels and arrangements (and it shows - lets not forget that many critics rate SMG2 as hands down the best designed platformer - and in a lot of cases, game - ever) whereas a game like Halo, that generally has more "expansive" worlds, is more about the bigger picture that the small details. So even though the levels are bigger, the amount of time that goes into making them isn't far different.

Both Halo 3 and SMG 2 has around 3 years of development time, (though not a fair comparison as Halo 3 was also building a new engine, and SMG2 was building off the existing, hence had more time for level design. SMG 1? In development for many, many years on and off...). There's a lot of additional resources like voice acting, complex lighting effects, mutiplayer that goes into Halo, but it's still the same amount of time really. (Though, I'd say the Halo 3 team was also no doubt larger than the SMG2 team).

Although, on topic, I think it's beyond doubt that the next machine is going to have a Blu-Ray drive, though it might not play Blu-Ray movies out of the box.

#191 The Teej

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 21:07

Given his postings, I'd assume not - considering I actually am a games programmer :p


Don't worry, I did games dev in Uni and I fully know he's chatting out of his... mouth ;) I was being facetious ;) I've given up trying to talk to Hawkman seriously to be honest.

#192 The King of GnG

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 21:17

Likelyhood level: maximum. Whoever says the contrary lives on a cloud, literally. And clouds are anything but a solid - or so chemistry and physics taught me at school....

#193 giantpotato

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 14:20

Given his postings, I'd assume not - considering I actually am a games programmer :p

He also probably doesn't play Mario games at that - take Mario Galaxy 2, which has about 40-50 unique levels / worlds, many of which actually have multiple goals, and takes about 30 hours to completely playthrough and experience - versus' the 8 hour Halo Storyline over a lot less unique worlds.

There's a great difference in how they're designed too - platforms have painstakingly designed levels and arrangements (and it shows - lets not forget that many critics rate SMG2 as hands down the best designed platformer - and in a lot of cases, game - ever) whereas a game like Halo, that generally has more "expansive" worlds, is more about the bigger picture that the small details. So even though the levels are bigger, the amount of time that goes into making them isn't far different.

Both Halo 3 and SMG 2 has around 3 years of development time, (though not a fair comparison as Halo 3 was also building a new engine, and SMG2 was building off the existing, hence had more time for level design. SMG 1? In development for many, many years on and off...). There's a lot of additional resources like voice acting, complex lighting effects, mutiplayer that goes into Halo, but it's still the same amount of time really. (Though, I'd say the Halo 3 team was also no doubt larger than the SMG2 team).

Although, on topic, I think it's beyond doubt that the next machine is going to have a Blu-Ray drive, though it might not play Blu-Ray movies out of the box.


I didn't realize Super Mario Galaxy 2 was a handheld game that shipped on a cartridge. Since it is, you have certainly proven HawkMan wrong that handheld games are just as detailed as console games that ship on discs. /s

#194 joemailey

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 14:32

I have to admit, one of my favourite things about my PS3 is the fact it is a Blu-Ray player. It basically saves me the hassle of having to buy a Blu-Ray player separately.

Anyone who thinks M$ won't have a console with a Blu-Ray drive must be nuts. It would be suicidal to remove the drive. As so many people will need it.

Although I could see both Sony & M$ maybe offering consoles without drives for cheaper, for the people who have the Data and speed to use such things.
I'd be happy without a drive as my connection is unlimited and quick + I'd have ps3 still for my Blu-Ray player.

Will be interesting once we see the console line-ups :)

#195 OP compl3x

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:57

So maybe resurrecting this topic would be interesting because it seems MS is putting a Blu-Ray player in.