256 replies to this topic 1 votes

[Emn1ty]

I think you are misunderstanding. First off, pressing a disc is only "cheaper" or "easier" because of the number of facilities around which already do so. While the 3DS may only have 1-2GB they themselves prove that the production of the media isn't difficult nor expensive. They produce games half or even less than half the price of games on DVD's or Blu-Ray so I fail to see any point at them being less practical financially (and the most expensive ones are higher budget and 1st party titles). They aren't any more difficult to produce that disks.

In regards to consumer pricing, they are very VERY close in price:
http://www.newegg.co...N82E16820134716 - 32GB SDHC - $21
http://www.amazon.co...59085574&sr=1-3 - 64 GB Flash Drive - $40
http://www.newegg.co...%20dual%20layer Dual Layer 50GB Blu-Ray $64

So from my perspective I don't see these as being much different in price. Sure, production costs may vary but I doubt that Sony is making a such a high profit compared to the other media devices listed. In fact, even on Amazon it appears that the flash drive is more bang for your buck (both being $40 but the flash drive having 14GB more storage space).

You may be accusing me of assuming that Blu-Rays are still a fortune, but to me it seems everyone else here has forgotten that storage media has dropped in price significantly as well. I can get a 8GB drive at my local computer store for $1. Before we start accusing people of being close minded don't perhaps we should all do some research?

Anyways as I said before I don't believe they will exclude a Blu-Ray drive, merely am suggesting a possibility that may appear in either this generation or even the next generation of consoles. I personally don't see a reason to keep using optical media. At this point, if they even try to keep backwards compatibility they'll have to put two lasers into the next XBox (one for DVD and one for Blu-Ray). That's going to increase the price, complexity and possibility of failure for the console. That being said we could still get a Blu-Ray drive and not use the media for games, just movies. Regardless of how things turn out I'm just pointing out that, from what I can tell, Blu-Ray isn't going to solve any problems. Media cards are more reliable, faster and scaleable and in the long run make far more sense. But that's just my opinion. You don't have to agree with it, but you don't have to attack me for making the point either.

[The_Decryptor]

You can't compare the price of a blu-ray bought in a store to one pressed in a factory, it's being done on a much larger scale (Hundreds of thousands of disks, that reduces the costs) and pressing is different to burning. This seems to be a small scale operation, and even then they're talking prices of $2.90 (or so) for pressing a 50GB disk.

It might cost more to include a hybrid DVD/Blu-Ray drive, but it'll cost even more to use flash based media.

[AngelGraves13]

It will include blu-ray or Microsoft is done.

[HawkMan]

AngelGraves13, on 25 January 2013 - 08:26, said:

It will include blu-ray or Microsoft is done.

Probably it will, but why would they be done if it didn't ?

everyone has a BD player today,s it's not because of that, as for disk size, hey could go the Nintendo way and make their own disks. The best thin about the WiiU by the way is the disks, those rounded edges are awesome.

[compl3x]

Emn1ty, on 25 January 2013 - 07:44, said:

I think you are misunderstanding. First off, pressing a disc is only "cheaper" or "easier" because of the number of facilities around which already do so.

Ok. So you already have the infrastructure to make games. Why start all new plants or negotiate new contracts with different companies to make flash-based media for games? No sense.

Emn1ty, on 25 January 2013 - 07:44, said:

While the 3DS may only have 1-2GB they themselves prove that the production of the media isn't difficult nor expensive. They produce games half or even less than half the price of games on DVD's or Blu-Ray so I fail to see any point at them being less practical financially (and the most expensive ones are higher budget and 1st party titles). They aren't any more difficult to produce that disks.

Nintendo uses carts in a handheld andcontinued with it for the 3DS for the sake of BC. It makes sense to have carts for a handheld because the size of discs dictates the minimum size a device has to be to use them and you want less moving parts. Who wants a handheld the size of a disc? Not very portable.

Quote

In regards to consumer pricing, they are very VERY close in price:
http://www.newegg.co...N82E16820134716 - 32GB SDHC - $21
http://www.amazon.co...59085574&sr=1-3 - 64 GB Flash Drive - $40
http://www.newegg.co...%20dual%20layer Dual Layer 50GB Blu-Ray $64

Consumer purchasing isn't the same as when a company mass produces. USB sticks for consumers are cheap because people buy them for data storage/transfer, they are rewritable, and faster then optical media. I don't know anyone who uses blu-ray rewritables over USB sticks for data storage and transfer. There is no sensible reason to sell people sticks/cards with games (for consoles) on them over pressed discs. None.

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So from my perspective I don't see these as being much different in price. Sure, production costs may vary but I doubt that Sony is making a such a high profit compared to the other media devices listed. In fact, even on Amazon it appears that the flash drive is more bang for your buck (both being $40 but the flash drive having 14GB more storage space).

You're comparing two different products, with two different intended purposes. One obvious reason why blank blu-rays are expensive is they aren't used by lots of people. I don't know anyone who has a blu-ray writer. Hell, I don't know many people who have readers in their PCs/Laptops. Every PC has USB ports and it's much easier to copy/delete things from a stick or a card than to rewrite a disc over and over again.

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You may be accusing me of assuming that Blu-Rays are still a fortune, but to me it seems everyone else here has forgotten that storage media has dropped in price significantly as well. I can get a 8GB drive at my local computer store for $1. Before we start accusing people of being close minded don't perhaps we should all do some research?

I didn't accuse you of anything, and where is the close minded part? Because I disagree with you?

Quote

You don't have to agree with it, but you don't have to attack me for making the point either.

Where did I attack you? Dafuq is wrong with people on this forum. You disagree with them and you're accused of attacking them.

[Dashel]

Hard to be the focus of your entertainment center without one...

[HawkMan]

Dashel, on 25 January 2013 - 23:38, said:

Hard to be the focus of your entertainment center without one...

why ? if you already have a BD player why would you need another one, and because it's the focus doesn't mean it has to do it all. besides I'd wager a lot more people watch HD movies and series over streaming services now than BD. and if you're bringing up countries that don't have the bandwidth for it, these are the same places where DVD still reigns far above BD.

in either case it'll most likely have BD, though I would like if they copied Nintendo's WiiU disks.

[Emn1ty]

compl3x, on 25 January 2013 - 23:33, said:

Ok. So you already have the infrastructure to make games. Why start all new plants or negotiate new contracts with different companies to make flash-based media for games? No sense.

They will eventually have to change. I doubt discs will remain a viable storage medium for much longer specifically because they are in many ways inferior to other storage mediums. Sure, pressing discs is very easy, but burning them isn't much more difficult (just less facilities that do so, making it more expensive).

compl3x, on 25 January 2013 - 23:33, said:

Nintendo uses carts in a handheld andcontinued with it for the 3DS for the sake of BC. It makes sense to have carts for a handheld because the size of discs dictates the minimum size a device has to be to use them and you want less moving parts. Who wants a handheld the size of a disc? Not very portable.

Why does it have to be a portable device to use a small form factor storage medium? I don't get that logic. Sure, they use it specifically because it is small, but why does that exclude it from use in a console? I think we'd all love for our devices to be smaller, produce less heat and consume less power. Media cards can provide that in spades with a marginal cost increase.

compl3x, on 25 January 2013 - 23:33, said:

Consumer purchasing isn't the same as when a company mass produces. USB sticks for consumers are cheap because people buy them for data storage/transfer, they are rewritable, and faster then optical media. I don't know anyone who uses blu-ray rewritables over USB sticks for data storage and transfer. There is no sensible reason to sell people sticks/cards with games (for consoles) on them over pressed discs. None.

I concur that it isn't the same thing. I also don't see you sighting any drawbacks to using that media. In fact, the best reason to use them is because of their speed. It would reduce loading times significantly, one of the biggest issues with modern games and something many developers are trying their best to eliminate. On top of that, any extra storage space within the device could store your save games, dlc, etc resulting in conservation of space on the console itself. There are many ways you can use media cards, discs are read only.

compl3x, on 25 January 2013 - 23:33, said:

You're comparing two different products, with two different intended purposes. One obvious reason why blank blu-rays are expensive is they aren't used by lots of people. I don't know anyone who has a blu-ray writer. Hell, I don't know many people who have readers in their PCs/Laptops. Every PC has USB ports and it's much easier to copy/delete things from a stick or a card than to rewrite a disc over and over again.

Read above.

compl3x, on 25 January 2013 - 23:33, said:

I didn't accuse you of anything, and where is the close minded part? Because I disagree with you?

My previous post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but all the previous posts in response to mine. If you didn't accuse me, then it wasn't meant for you.

compl3x, on 25 January 2013 - 23:33, said:

Where did I attack you? Dafuq is wrong with people on this forum. You disagree with them and you're accused of attacking them.

Again, my previous post wasn't specifically at you. If you didn't do it, then it isn't directed at you. Specifically I was responding to the people who, instead of actually responding to my post, made quips about fanboyism.

[compl3x]

Emn1ty, on 26 January 2013 - 03:50, said:

They will eventually have to change. I doubt discs will remain a viable storage medium for much longer specifically because they are in many ways inferior to other storage mediums. Sure, pressing discs is very easy, but burning them isn't much more difficult (just less facilities that do so, making it more expensive).

Why does it need to change? Blu-ray capacity is very high: 25 single layer, 50 double layer, 100 and 128 BDXL. Pioneer showed off a 400GB disc. That is going to be enough for all of the applications going forward. They are even looking at extending the blu-ray spec for 4K. Show me how flash media is going to be able to compete with that.

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Why does it have to be a portable device to use a small form factor storage medium? I don't get that logic. Sure, they use it specifically because it is small, but why does that exclude it from use in a console? I think we'd all love for our devices to be smaller, produce less heat and consume less power. Media cards can provide that in spades with a marginal cost increase.

It doesn't have to, but it is the only sensible option for handhelds. Home consoles from Sony and MS want to be media devices. Millions of people worldwide have DVDs and Blu-Rays they want to play. Yes, I am sure people already have DVD/BRD players, but people also like to streamline things and use one device in their Home Ent. for everything. Gaming, streaming, disc playback, music streaming etc.

Not including a player in something you bill as a media centre is mental.

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I concur that it isn't the same thing. I also don't see you sighting any drawbacks to using that media. In fact, the best reason to use them is because of their speed. It would reduce loading times significantly, one of the biggest issues with modern games and something many developers are trying their best to eliminate. On top of that, any extra storage space within the device could store your save games, dlc, etc resulting in conservation of space on the console itself. There are many ways you can use media cards, discs are read only.

The drawback is capacity and cost, for the umpteenth time. Publishers and developers moved away from cartridges because of capacity in the first place. You're right, they did sacrifice loading times, but it was a necessity. Although, that might be negated now because consoles have internal hard drives and much of the data is installed on the the drive which reduces load times. Finally, games are going to have higher quality video and audio, you need somewhere to put it.

Carts/flash media costs more to produce and have seemingly no benefit over discs. Guess who picks up the bill at the end of the day for increased production/manufacturing costs (hint: it isn't the publishers)

Quote

My previous post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but all the previous posts in response to mine. If you didn't accuse me, then it wasn't meant for you.


Again, my previous post wasn't specifically at you. If you didn't do it, then it isn't directed at you. Specifically I was responding to the people who, instead of actually responding to my post, made quips about fanboyism.

Your post was right after mine and was addressing my points. You kept using the pronoun "you" so it wasn't unreasonable for me to assume you were talking to me specifically.


I don't think you're a fanboy or hater, I am however unsure of why you are so doggedly defending this idea which seem to me to be without merit.

[The_Decryptor]

Emn1ty, on 26 January 2013 - 03:50, said:

They will eventually have to change. I doubt discs will remain a viable storage medium for much longer specifically because they are in many ways inferior to other storage mediums. Sure, pressing discs is very easy, but burning them isn't much more difficult (just less facilities that do so, making it more expensive).
...

Burning them might not be that much harder than pressing them, but it is a lot slower and costs more (Since you're using a CD specifically made for writing)

[Emn1ty]

compl3x, on 26 January 2013 - 04:18, said:

Why does it need to change? Blu-ray capacity is very high: 25 single layer, 50 double layer, 100 and 128 BDXL. Pioneer showed off a 400GB disc. That is going to be enough for all of the applications going forward. They are even looking at extending the blu-ray spec for 4K. Show me how flash media is going to be able to compete with that.

I doubt capacity will be an issue with flash/media cards. SDHC was designed for capacity up to 2TB (compared to your 400GB Blu-ray I see far more potential). On top of being faster, using less power and being more reliable.

compl3x, on 26 January 2013 - 04:18, said:

It doesn't have to, but it is the only sensible option for handhelds. Home consoles from Sony and MS want to be media devices. Millions of people worldwide have DVDs and Blu-Rays they want to play. Yes, I am sure people already have DVD/BRD players, but people also like to streamline things and use one device in their Home Ent. for everything. Gaming, streaming, disc playback, music streaming etc.

Not including a player in something you bill as a media centre is mental.

Even if you don't have the player in the device, if the rumored HDMI input is true you won't need a player in your console. You can merely plug your current one in.

compl3x, on 26 January 2013 - 04:18, said:

The drawback is capacity and cost, for the umpteenth time. Publishers and developers moved away from cartridges because of capacity in the first place. You're right, they did sacrifice loading times, but it was a necessity. Although, that might be negated now because consoles have internal hard drives and much of the data is installed on the the drive which reduces load times. Finally, games are going to have higher quality video and audio, you need somewhere to put it.

Carts/flash media costs more to produce and have seemingly no benefit over discs. Guess who picks up the bill at the end of the day for increased production/manufacturing costs (hint: it isn't the publishers)

Again, as I stated above the current SDHC architecture was designed to support up to 2TB of storage. Cost will go down with increased production. They are also far more flexible in how they can be used.

compl3x, on 26 January 2013 - 04:18, said:

I don't think you're a fanboy or hater, I am however unsure of why you are so doggedly defending this idea which seem to me to be without merit.

I personally see it as the most understandable way to move forward. I hate owning discs, I hate the boxes they come in, the scratches they accumulate over time, the noise they make when being read and the large number of drives that have failed me because they are so fragile. Its the most common point of failure in any PC/Console, why not eliminate it? I'm sure the increased cost in producing non-disk media would make up for the costs of warranty claims that have plagued every disc using console on release.

[vcfan]

Dual layer DVD and the option to download high rez textures through xbox live.

there is no way in hell theyre putting a bluray in there.

[Emn1ty]

I found a good article on SDHC vs Blu-Ray actually, I'm currently reading through it but I'll link it here - http://www.freesoftw...dhc_flash_media

[compl3x]

@emn1ty:


SDHC only goes to 32GB, SDXC goes to 2TB... According to wiki. I don't know if there are any 2TB ones now or if they are planned for the future. The largest one I could find for sale was 256GB it was > $550AUD.

The cheapest SDXC 64GB card I am looking at is $41AUD. That is just the card itself. No content on it. Compare that to the mere cents, or percentage of a cent, pressing a disc. No competition.

vcfan, on 26 January 2013 - 05:22, said:

Dual layer DVD and the option to download high rez textures through xbox live.

there is no way in hell theyre putting a bluray in there.

According to the leaked spec, MS are putting a Blu-Ray player in their next console...

[Emn1ty]

compl3x, on 26 January 2013 - 05:30, said:

@emn1ty:


SDHC only goes to 32GB, SDXC goes to 2TB... According to wiki. I don't know if there are any 2TB ones now or if they are planned for the future. The largest one I could find for sale was 256GB it was > $550AUD.

The cheapest SDXC 64GB card I am looking at is $41AUD. That is just the card itself. No content on it. Compare that to the mere cents, or percentage of a cent, pressing a disc. No competition.

Name a game to me, outside of DLC, that uses more than 32GB of space. You won't find one. Even MMO's don't break that size and they are notorious for being extremely large installs. And that's on PC. Take a look at the article I linked, it demonstrates that price differences for movies can be made up for in many ways, this would also include games. One particularly interesting thing is direct patching/updating of the media. You movies could, for example, get updated subtitles and during production these changes can easily be applied to the newer releases.