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This guy makes some good points about Linux

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#61 .Neo

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 13:26

The big difference for Android success is Android comes bundled with the hardware people are going to buy anyway, and for a while it was the only viable alternative to the iPhone. The problem Linux runs into is that for the start of the Netbook craze, the community didn't set aside the differences and pool their resources to make a UI and overall experience that worked very well on a netbook, and instead ceded that market to Windows.

Ubuntu was pretty much there really. I'd say the real problem lies with commercial software support and the already available software just not being good enough feature-wise.


#62 Anibal P

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 13:31

Actually, Android has some serious fragmentation complaints. Sense on an HTC, TouchWiz on a Samsung, Blur on a Motorola, Flyme on a Meizu, and so on.

The big difference for Android success is Android comes bundled with the hardware people are going to buy anyway, and for a while it was the only viable alternative to the iPhone. The problem Linux runs into is that for the start of the Netbook craze, the community didn't set aside the differences and pool their resources to make a UI and overall experience that worked very well on a netbook, and instead ceded that market to Windows.

It's only now that Netbook sales have almost dried up that we're finally seeing some distros that work well.

Linux might get another chance with gaming - no way it'll be up to snuff for tablets even though Unity and Gnome Shell are both designed with tablet use in mind - and that's only if Microsoft fumbles or Valve really pushes ahead with their Linux support. For that though, not only will there have to be a solid Linux distro that looks good and performs well on all hardware, they're going to have to get the graphics driver issue sorted out, and I'm not even convinced they'll be able to do that with Intel HD 4000 (or 5000/6000 when it comes out) graphics even though Intel provides the source code to the drivers.


The fragmentation myth, how cute, you sound like an Apple drone, you seem to HATE choice if it's not the one choice Apple allows, guess what, most normal people are not like that at all, normal people like choice

#63 ichi

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 13:34

Actually, Android has some serious fragmentation complaints. Sense on an HTC, TouchWiz on a Samsung, Blur on a Motorola, Flyme on a Meizu, and so on.


Android has problems with OEMs not updating their devices to the latest ROM, but the point is you don't see there any of the complains from that video, eg. the audio stack. It doesn't matter if there's OSS, Alsa and Pulseaudio out there, Android's sound just works.

Same should happen on the desktop: Canonical (or anyone else) should just pick their choices and polish them until everything works fine. If someone else wants to keep working on eg. a different sound stack then so be it, Ubuntu wouldn't be affected by that in any way.

The big difference for Android success is Android comes bundled with the hardware people are going to buy anyway, and for a while it was the only viable alternative to the iPhone. The problem Linux runs into is that for the start of the Netbook craze, the community didn't set aside the differences and pool their resources to make a UI and overall experience that worked very well on a netbook, and instead ceded that market to Windows.

It's only now that Netbook sales have almost dried up that we're finally seeing some distros that work well.


Which was my point: same as Google pushed Android on smartphones you won't see Linux succeeding on the desktop in any other way that coming from some company pushing it. If you see OEMs shipping laptops with Ubuntu at all (like those Asus just launched) that's precisely because of Canonical.

Regarding the netbooks, well, OEMs going with weird obscure distros like Linpus or Xandros without even verifying that the software did actually support the hardware it was bundled with certainly didn't help, and that had nothing to do with comunity's work.

I didn't get to use Xandros (although from what I heard on some netbooks the webcam didn't even work OOTB) but on Linpus the software selection from the repos sucked, and even getting some video codecs to work was a PITA. I just replaced Linpus with Ubuntu on my Acer One and everything worked perfectly fine, go figure.

#64 .Neo

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 13:34

The fragmentation myth, how cute, you sound like an Apple drone, you seem to HATE choice if it's not the one choice Apple allows, guess what, most normal people are not like that at all, normal people like choice

It's becoming really tiresome on this forum that people who are critical about whatever product are immediately being called a fanboy from the other camp. The true myth is that the average consumer actually cares about having tons of choices and care about something being open source or not. They just want something that works and couldn't care less about the rest as long as it continues to work properly.

#65 Deihmos

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 13:40

Everytime I tried linux (ubuntu) I found the audio to sound terrible so I always get rid of it. I also encoutenered tons of bugs and I also find it to be really slow compared to WIndows 7.

#66 Jason S.

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 13:53

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#67 migo

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 14:14

Android has problems with OEMs not updating their devices to the latest ROM, but the point is you don't see there any of the complains from that video, eg. the audio stack. It doesn't matter if there's OSS, Alsa and Pulseaudio out there, Android's sound just works.


That's true, there's less fragmentation than in Linux, but it's still there. If every phone just ran stock ICS (they're STILL doing overlays, sheesh!) things would be a lot better.

Same should happen on the desktop: Canonical (or anyone else) should just pick their choices and polish them until everything works fine. If someone else wants to keep working on eg. a different sound stack then so be it, Ubuntu wouldn't be affected by that in any way.


They should do the same with DEs. Would have been better for them to stick with Gnome than to have Kubuntu, Xubuntu and Lubuntu. That's unnecessary extra support work for them.

Which was my point: same as Google pushed Android on smartphones you won't see Linux succeeding on the desktop in any other way that coming from some company pushing it. If you see OEMs shipping laptops with Ubuntu at all (like those Asus just launched) that's precisely because of Canonical.


So Canonical went out to Asus and asked them to build hardware that was known to work flawlessly with Ubuntu or?

Regarding the netbooks, well, OEMs going with weird obscure distros like Linpus or Xandros without even verifying that the software did actually support the hardware it was bundled with certainly didn't help, and that had nothing to do with comunity's work.


Even Ubuntu at the time had problems though, I remember deliberating between Ubuntu, Knoppix and PCLinuxOS because each one had its own flaws that were quite annoying that the other distros had solved perfectly. It's not like there was a good Linux distro back then, at least not unless you were lucky with hardware combinations, and that was an issue with the community's work.

I didn't get to use Xandros (although from what I heard on some netbooks the webcam didn't even work OOTB) but on Linpus the software selection from the repos sucked, and even getting some video codecs to work was a PITA. I just replaced Linpus with Ubuntu on my Acer One and everything worked perfectly fine, go figure.


That also brings up the question of why people feel they need to make ****ty distros that are forks of a much better supported one.

#68 migo

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 14:17

Ubuntu was pretty much there really. I'd say the real problem lies with commercial software support and the already available software just not being good enough feature-wise.


Commercial software support is something of a community problem. Linux users didn't really want anything to do with WordPerfect, despite being a native port (for 8) because it wasn't open source. Stallman isn't really helping there either.

#69 simplezz

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 14:20

I see a lot of people, including the guy in the video, complaining about too many video apps, sound architectures, distros, DE's etc... Well that's what FOSS and GNU/Linux are all about - Choice

Some like VLC, I like Mplayer, and the list goes on. There's something for everybody, that's why GNU/Linux is so appealing. Why should everybody conform to the same software or way of doing things? If you want that, stick to Windows or OS X, don't foist it upon us Linux users.

#70 migo

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 14:27

If they were all self contained apps it wouldn't be so much of a problem, but Linux has layers upon layers of dependencies.

#71 ichi

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 15:35

That's true, there's less fragmentation than in Linux, but it's still there. If every phone just ran stock ICS (they're STILL doing overlays, sheesh!) things would be a lot better.



That doesn't mean OEMs would be releasing updates faster. The actual problem with fragmentation is device drivers, which is what Google is trying to solve giving OEMs earlier access to the new platform with the PDK.

They should do the same with DEs. Would have been better for them to stick with Gnome than to have Kubuntu, Xubuntu and Lubuntu. That's unnecessary extra support work for them.


Canonical? Probably, but then I don't see them spending much time on those other distros. All their development is focused on Ubuntu.

So Canonical went out to Asus and asked them to build hardware that was known to work flawlessly with Ubuntu or?


I don't know how Canonical approached Asus, but they can provide a comprehensive list of certified hardware, they can provide support and they can help with any questions the OEM might have about the deployment.
Canonical has been in talks with OEMs for quite some time now, and I'd think that has something to do with them releasing laptops with Ubuntu and not Fedora or Suse.

Even Ubuntu at the time had problems though, I remember deliberating between Ubuntu, Knoppix and PCLinuxOS because each one had its own flaws that were quite annoying that the other distros had solved perfectly. It's not like there was a good Linux distro back then, at least not unless you were lucky with hardware combinations, and that was an issue with the community's work.


As a OEM you shouldn't be releasing a non working product and expecting anything but failure. It's up to them to assemble hardware and software together and make sure everything works.
If some of your product's hardware isn't working either get in talks with the developers to get it fixed or just don't release the product at all.

The community can't test a distro in every possible hardware configuration. You can blame devs if you download a distro and it doesn't work for you, but when it comes to OEMs it's their responsability to work with the devs if they really intend to get the product out.

I guess I was lucky with the Acer One since everything worked when I installed Ubuntu.

That also brings up the question of why people feel they need to make ****ty distros that are forks of a much better supported one.


Because they can, but that doesn't mean that anyone has to use those or even pay any attention.

If they were all self contained apps it wouldn't be so much of a problem, but Linux has layers upon layers of dependencies.


Anyone can release statically compiled packages, the problem is you would have to keep baking releases for every update in each of the statically linked libraries or else your product would have flaws that have been already fixed.
Anyway since dependencies are sorted out automatically by the package manager I don't see how that's a problem.

#72 migo

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 20:22

Sometimes one program has a dependency for an earlier version of a particular library, while another program has a dependency for a later one. Unless you're using something like Gobo Linux (which almost nobody is as it's defunct), you're screwed for one of the programs. It's like requiring 4 different versions of the .net Framework to be installed, except on Linux you'd only get to pick one.

#73 ichi

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 22:00

Sometimes one program has a dependency for an earlier version of a particular library, while another program has a dependency for a later one. Unless you're using something like Gobo Linux (which almost nobody is as it's defunct), you're screwed for one of the programs. It's like requiring 4 different versions of the .net Framework to be installed, except on Linux you'd only get to pick one.


You won't get into that problem using software from the repositories, that's the whole reason why you don't get bleeding edge versions until the next distro release.
For stuff like libc where you are more likely to run into that problem there are libcompat libraries that provide compatibility with previous libc libraries.

If for some strange reason you really really need wildly different lib versions for a specific application you can always chroot it, although that'd be a bit overkill :/ I haven't found such problem so far, though. Only with some HP products and only about libc, which is solved with the libcompat package.

#74 n_K

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 23:04

The guy having problems removing his fedora partition - you need to boot from a livecd/usb and use gparted, right click on the partition and click 'unmount' if you can't delete it :).

SELinux - for most home users it isn't needed at all, if you're doing server work and whatnot though it's a VERY good idea to enable it (microsoft uses it on their *nix skype servers).

BTRFS is in theory stable now, it has an fsck tool called btrfsfsck NOTbtrfs.fsck so I symlinked it for my server install, haven't really tested it's speed in comparison to ext4 but it's reliable! Server's lost power on a few occasions and the VMs have just been shut off without powering down and they've always recovered fine.

'If for some strange reason you really really need wildly different lib versions for a specific application you can always chroot it, although that'd be a bit overkill'
That's useful for skype to prevent it sending data about your PC ;)

#75 allknow

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 00:11

The fragmentation myth, how cute, you sound like an Apple drone, you seem to HATE choice if it's not the one choice Apple allows, guess what, most normal people are not like that at all, normal people like choice

? ohh.. so this is only choice and not fragmentation? add in on top of all the fragmentation all the different screen sizes and aspect ratios of each Droid maker and you got yourself one heck of a huge mess.

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reminds me of how a girl says "I'm not a slut, I just like variety"