pic How Pro Windows 8 users want Anti Windows 8 users to use Windows 8

[RandPC]

How can you prefer this :

http://blogs.msdn.co...00_5E72E680.png

Other that : (note that it's been slightly modified in the RTM, but you got the idea)

http://blogs.msdn.co...00_1548C5BD.png

Both are accessible through a single click and one shows more results than the other, guess which one : blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/11/reflecting-on-your-comments-on-the-start-screen.aspx

I'd say the person using the system in the first screen shot desperately needs to organize their start menu. I have no clue why they would want all that crap strewn out in an endless menu instead of nicely organized into folders relevant to the type of application it is.

Practically speaking, I would assume 95% of most peoples applications would be covered by some being pinned to the task bar, some being pinned to the start menu, and the rest being shown immediately on the Most Recently used list rather then digging into that list however.

I have 29 applications covered through that without ever actually opening the all programs menu, with a maximum number of clicks to reach any of them being 2. (8 pinned to taskbar, 8 pinned to start menu, 13 listed in the MRU)

Whereas on the Start Screen applications are still two clicks away but I need to go into a full screen overlay and scroll over long before I can see all that I could previously.

Additionally with the Start Screen I lose jump lists which I use regularly on the start menu, I lose access to an immediate one click search across all media types as I now have to filter a search, I lose access to being able to configure a flyout control panel list of all applets for much quicker access then Win8 allows through the right click bottom left start hint, click control panel and then find the applet. It's clearly slower then an instant flyout. I lose access to an immediate list of Document/Picture/Music/Libraries, and while they can be pinned to the Start Screen that uses space that is needed for applications to prevent excessive scrolling.

Also, on the start screen I cannot simply right click on the folders and hit properties to manage the folders linked to the libraries, or go to the System applet.

In short, I think it's pretty indisputable that the Start Screen isn't ideal for everyone and does have some compromises relative to the Start Menu. Some functionality is either lost completely or takes longer to access.

Conversely it does certainly have it's benefits and advantages, I don't dispute this. For some they may well feel those advantages are well worth losing a few features of the Start Menu. That's fine, opinions will vary and no two users are identical nor are everyones needs the same.

For me, the Start Screen isn't advantageous. The problem with so much of the discussion surrounding it is proponents of the Start Menu are reluctant to admit that the Start Screen offers clear advantages (Visual display of recent emails rather then opening an email application for example is a huge advantage). There are other advantages of the Start Screen but I'll let someone else expand on that if they choose.

Similarly proponents of the Start Screen are reluctant to acknowledge that some features of the Start Menu have been lost or are less convenient.

Sacrifices are made either way. What's good for one person isn't necessarily good for another. Ideally you could customize this and choose what you wanted, or even have both if you desired. Customizability long being the biggest strength of Windows over OSX imo.

Ultimately neither side is wrong, you can argue in circles forever and never convince the other. Whatever solution you prefer you've sacrificed some perks and gained others. It's a judgement call based on individual needs as to which works best for you.

It's arrogance to suggest how I work suits everyone else and everyone needs to same things in an application launcher. They don't, we all work differently.

Lots of people would argue both are terrible and OSX's dock is superior.

[KSib]

I love how Windows 8 looks, but I'm sorry, having 2 disconnected "desktop" interfaces is a horrible design choice. If I load a page in IE, it shouldn't be treated as a separate instance when I load the other IE on the other "desktop". For the average user, how is that a good idea? I still have it installed on a separate partition but I can't see a good argument for this design.

Everything else is wonderful. Tiles with updates, the refresh option, and simply the beauty of it. But no one thinks the interface is way too modal? Then I have two separate control panels? It's ridiculous. Merge these features into metro. Go big or go home. It's like Windows 7.5 in some ways.

[Colin McGregor]

We completed a study with regards to the costs of upgrading to Windows 8 where I work, over 40,000 users. Just the training portion of that study was well into the 6 figures to get users comfortable and competant in using it. Final decision hasn't been made but looks like my workplace won't be upgrading any time soon either.

6 figures to get people competent in using it?? Took my mom about a day maybe 2 to know it. I think you need to spend that 6 figures in training better workers. If you want I can send my mom, she can teach you guys.

[+Warwagon MVC]

6 figures to get people competent in using it?? Took my mom about a day maybe 2 to know it. I think you need to spend that 6 figures in training better workers. If you want I can send my mom, she can teach you guys.

There are those select few average users who get things quicker than most. Then there are those who still have no idea what a right click does. Which is why it boggles my mind that Microsoft added most of the important items as a right click on the start box.

[Stoffel]

There are those select few average users who get things quicker than most. Then there are those who still have no idea what a right click does. Which is why it boggles my mind that Microsoft added most of the important items as a right click on the start box.

Because all the options in that menu are things that the average user will never use. They don't need to know the right click for that

[Anthonyd]

I have 29 applications covered through that without ever actually opening the all programs menu, with a maximum number of clicks to reach any of them being 2. (8 pinned to taskbar, 8 pinned to start menu, 13 listed in the MRU)

Whereas on the Start Screen applications are still two clicks away but I need to go into a full screen overlay and scroll over long before I can see all that I could previously.

Additionally with the Start Screen I lose jump lists which I use regularly on the start menu, I lose access to an immediate one click search across all media types as I now have to filter a search, I lose access to being able to configure a flyout control panel list of all applets for much quicker access then Win8 allows through the right click bottom left start hint, click control panel and then find the applet. It's clearly slower then an instant flyout. I lose access to an immediate list of Document/Picture/Music/Libraries, and while they can be pinned to the Start Screen that uses space that is needed for applications to prevent excessive scrolling.

Also, on the start screen I cannot simply right click on the folders and hit properties to manage the folders linked to the libraries, or go to the System applet.

-If you sort the apps correctly in the start screen you don't need to scroll to catch the apps you need the most (unless you are using a 10" screen);

-Jump list are still here for pinned apps on the taskbar.

-Search for files is still accessible with 1 shortcut.

-The list for all apps is still accessible with 1 single click (use charmbar > search on the desktop).

-You don't lose access to Documents/Pictures/etc, just pin them into the taskbar/start menu and they are still 2 clicks away.

-I'm laughing out loud when reading "Also, on the start screen I cannot simply right click on the folders and hit properties to manage the folders linked to the libraries, or go to the System applet.". It's something that you do once per Windows install, using few more clicks won't kill you. Especially since you aren't supposed to redirect those folder but add the new destination to the Library.

See, most of your rant is based on the fact that you don't know how to use the new Windows.

[BajiRav]

Never said I didn't like change, I just don't like change for the sake of change, there is nothing that Metro does that Windows 7 cannot do, all for the sake of trying to appeal to the iPad crowd.

I would just stick with Windows 7 but 8 has a lot of under the hood improvements that I would lose for the sake of Metro, its ridiculous.

Here is one thing that screen does better than menu - it can show more shortcuts at a glance. So there is at least this one thing.

[pwgarner]

The thing I find amusing is some people will say the old way to search was better because they could just hit start and start typing without it taking up the whole screen. Is it me or why do you need to continue to see what you are leaving? You are searching for a new program for a reason. We should agree that that is a silly argument. They switching from "Metro" to traditional is a more reasonable objection.

[pwgarner]

I'd say the person using the system in the first screen shot desperately needs to organize their start menu. I have no clue why they would want all that crap strewn out in an endless menu instead of nicely organized into folders relevant to the type of application it is.

Practically speaking, I would assume 95% of most peoples applications would be covered by some being pinned to the task bar, some being pinned to the start menu, and the rest being shown immediately on the Most Recently used list rather then digging into that list however.

I have 29 applications covered through that without ever actually opening the all programs menu, with a maximum number of clicks to reach any of them being 2. (8 pinned to taskbar, 8 pinned to start menu, 13 listed in the MRU)

Whereas on the Start Screen applications are still two clicks away but I need to go into a full screen overlay and scroll over long before I can see all that I could previously.

Additionally with the Start Screen I lose jump lists which I use regularly on the start menu, I lose access to an immediate one click search across all media types as I now have to filter a search, I lose access to being able to configure a flyout control panel list of all applets for much quicker access then Win8 allows through the right click bottom left start hint, click control panel and then find the applet. It's clearly slower then an instant flyout. I lose access to an immediate list of Document/Picture/Music/Libraries, and while they can be pinned to the Start Screen that uses space that is needed for applications to prevent excessive scrolling.

Also, on the start screen I cannot simply right click on the folders and hit properties to manage the folders linked to the libraries, or go to the System applet.

In short, I think it's pretty indisputable that the Start Screen isn't ideal for everyone and does have some compromises relative to the Start Menu. Some functionality is either lost completely or takes longer to access.

Conversely it does certainly have it's benefits and advantages, I don't dispute this. For some they may well feel those advantages are well worth losing a few features of the Start Menu. That's fine, opinions will vary and no two users are identical nor are everyones needs the same.

For me, the Start Screen isn't advantageous. The problem with so much of the discussion surrounding it is proponents of the Start Menu are reluctant to admit that the Start Screen offers clear advantages (Visual display of recent emails rather then opening an email application for example is a huge advantage). There are other advantages of the Start Screen but I'll let someone else expand on that if they choose.

Similarly proponents of the Start Screen are reluctant to acknowledge that some features of the Start Menu have been lost or are less convenient.

Sacrifices are made either way. What's good for one person isn't necessarily good for another. Ideally you could customize this and choose what you wanted, or even have both if you desired. Customizability long being the biggest strength of Windows over OSX imo.

Ultimately neither side is wrong, you can argue in circles forever and never convince the other. Whatever solution you prefer you've sacrificed some perks and gained others. It's a judgement call based on individual needs as to which works best for you.

It's arrogance to suggest how I work suits everyone else and everyone needs to same things in an application launcher. They don't, we all work differently.

Lots of people would argue both are terrible and OSX's dock is superior.

You sir are a man among men!! Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful post!!

[HSoft]

6 figures to get people competent in using it?? Took my mom about a day maybe 2 to know it. I think you need to spend that 6 figures in training better workers. If you want I can send my mom, she can teach you guys.

So 2 days to get to know it, that would be 2 days of downtime multiplied by over 40,000 people. Very easily 6 figures.

[srbeen]

It's simple. People who are for Metro say "Just pin your apps to the taskbar if you don't want to use the Start screen". And someone using many apps (and hates Metro) is going to end up in a situation exactly like this.

Metro lovers JUST DON'T get it. A lot of people find opening the full screen Start "Menu" to search for or open programs JARRING. Instead of the clean, small and elegant menu like before, you now are forced to see it fill up the ENTIRE screen! And the bigger the monitor, the worse the effect!

Once using Win 8 a bit I discovered metro isn't needed for anything aside from launching apps there is no shortcut for. Its just a full-screen, interactive, start menu! I mean its pretty, but pointless.

I would like windows 8 much more, if I could do just 2 things:

1) disable metro. I don't have a touch device, I don't need full screen/blankspace browsing the web. I like to know the time constantly. Metro is big, bulky, and annoying. MS won't let me though... I'm pretty sure just like the Xbox, this is going to be used for advertisements shortly.

2) replace the start corner button/weird mac-stolen hotspot idea with a simple search bar that inserts onto the taskbar, widening as you type. Applications on your system are transparently/opaguely populated overtop of the current desktop view, pretty much like like metro does now, but you can see your current desktop.. This can also be resized, or make into a 'spotlight' list (populating up from taskbar), or just come up with the search bar, or just left like windows 7. Just give me the ability to do it how I want to!

If MS released a patch to do that, I would seriously consider investing into Win 8. There is definitely under the hood improvements esp with task manager, windows explorer, and file copy dialogues. but the under the hood improvements aren't good enough to warrant a terrible UI. As it stands now, its more of a hindrance to get used to on a standard touch-disabled device than a boost from the internal optimizations.

Actually, the All Programs menu in Windows 8 can display everything installed on the computer on a single screen, without any scrolling and without needing to click to expand folders; it can't do that in Windows 7. Windows 7 can't display live tiles, you can't change the background colour / pattern, you can't pin as many programs to it, etc. The start screen in Windows 8 does more than is possible in Windows 7.

You may not like the changes but it offers improved functionality and customisability over Windows 7.

How do I force everything to launch in desktop mode?

I cannot replicate what you achieved in your post. From the all menu its several pages unless I click, which alphabetizes them, making them a drill-down menu. It does display them all on one page, eventually, or if you rather you can drag them into the 'metro'- but they are so tiny its nearly impossible to read without enlarging, again making it several pages.... I also can't do this without at least 4 clicks and a scroll wheel adjustment. From desktop mode.

On a touch screen this would be incredibly helpful and fluid feature. not on a desktop though.

[ahhell]

So 2 days to get to know it, that would be 2 days of downtime multiplied by over 40,000 people. Very easily 6 figures.

It's 2 days to get proficient at it not 2 days of "I can't work". It's still Windows for **** sakes.

[Omen1393]

War Wagon, why don't you just use Windows Key W to get to the mouse settings quickly?

[chrisj1968]

2 sucked OS'es under Steve Ballmer. I'd like to upgrade to "the" or "a"new windows OS but not one that's meant for tablets or windows phone. I'm working with win8 on a VM, the consumer preview and while i'm getting somewhat around the interface, I have no damn clue how to start my apps. I'm honestly trying. I think this will be a real let down for millions of windows users worldwide because it's like stopping a truck on a dime to change direction. so if I install an app, I can post it to the taskbar? that's the best MS could do? Ms has been thinking up ****, they have people backing them up thinking up ****, getting paid god know how much money to produce software and this is the best all their talent can bring to the table? ( *credits : the format of my rant is from the movie Armageddon)

[BajiRav]

War Wagon, why don't you just use Windows Key W to get to the mouse settings quickly?

If he did that, he wouldn't be able to post this "funny" video...

[srbeen]

So 2 days to get to know it, that would be 2 days of downtime multiplied by over 40,000 people. Very easily 6 figures.

It takes about 15 seconds to figure it out. After that its simply a dual-windows environment. If you don't know any windows hotkeys you may have a bad time the first 2 days, losing where programs are.

I can only see developers upgrading to this, just because of compatibility. This isn't a great productivity release. I have not spent 20 minutes in the metro environment yet and several days into testing it out. Its a spiffier windows 7 in desktop mode.

[Anthonyd]

War Wagon, why don't you just use Windows Key W to get to the mouse settings quickly?

Because he is a troll?

[srbeen]

2 sucked OS'es under Steve Ballmer. I'd like to upgrade to "the" or "a"new windows OS but not one that's meant for tablets or windows phone. I'm working with win8 on a VM, the consumer preview and while i'm getting somewhat around the interface, I have no damn clue how to start my apps. I'm honestly trying. I think this will be a real let down for millions of windows users worldwide because it's like stopping a truck on a dime to change direction. so if I install an app, I can post it to the taskbar? that's the best MS could do? Ms has been thinking up ****, they have people backing them up thinking up ****, getting paid god know how much money to produce software and this is the best all their talent can bring to the table? ( *credits : the format of my rant is from the movie Armageddon)

hit start (mouse bottom left corner) and type. a search window comes up narrowing down apps on your system

mouse the top right corner, and hit the eyeglass/search icon

right click in metro, go to apps in the bottom right.

This was my biggest obsticle, aside from forgetting which environment they were launched in, as metro don't show on desktop mode and vice-versa but Alt+Tab rotates through them all...

[ahhell]

2 sucked OS'es under Steve Ballmer. I'd like to upgrade to "the" or "a"new windows OS but not one that's meant for tablets or windows phone. I'm working with win8 on a VM, the consumer preview and while i'm getting somewhat around the interface, I have no damn clue how to start my apps. I'm honestly trying. I think this will be a real let down for millions of windows users worldwide because it's like stopping a truck on a dime to change direction. so if I install an app, I can post it to the taskbar? that's the best MS could do? Ms has been thinking up ****, they have people backing them up thinking up ****, getting paid god know how much money to produce software and this is the best all their talent can bring to the table? ( *credits : the format of my rant is from the movie Armageddon)

This gives me a pain in the membrane.

How can you be having issues starting applications???? Good lord.

[chrisj1968]

hit start (mouse bottom left corner) and type. a search window comes up narrowing down apps on your system

mouse the top right corner, and hit the eyeglass/search icon

right click in metro, go to apps in the bottom right.

This was my biggest obsticle, aside from forgetting which environment they were launched in, as metro don't show on desktop mode and vice-versa but Alt+Tab rotates through them all...

ah ok. is installing the software the same? will we rely seriously on the installation wizard?

[srbeen]

This gives me a pain in the membrane.

How can you be having issues starting applications???? Good lord.

I did. it wasn't obvious.

[Active.]

It's still Windows for **** sakes.

It really isn't. What used to be "Windows" only lives on as the Desktop part of Windows 8. I would agree that that is mostly unchanged. "Windows 8 applications", and the rest of the Windows 8 experience, including the Start screen, work nothing like "Windows" though.

[srbeen]

ah ok. is installing the software the same? will we rely seriously on the installation wizard?

once this was figured out, its windows 7 with that annoying launch interface. getting 'right click' in IE10 required right clicking, going to the wrench, launching in desktop mode - then i had the normal context menu back with print, send to, email. etc.

Installing apps seem to be the same. Chrome works in metro now it seems. I want to know how to force everything to launch to the desktop - then win 8 would work but still no reason to spend another $50-80 on something thats not needed. esp since the main feature they are selling is the main feature im bypassing.

[chrisj1968]

This gives me a pain in the membrane.

How can you be having issues starting applications???? Good lord.

hey while you're techy, i'm not. think about the millions of users who will feel like me. I used to keep up on the cutting edge tech. but at 44, I'm not as involved as I used to be. Lol I feel like I'm an 80 year old and you're trying to introduce a computer to an 80 year old, sorry..

once this was figured out, its windows 7 with that annoying launch interface. getting 'right click' in IE10 required right clicking, going to the wrench, launching in desktop mode - then i had the normal context menu back with print, send to, email. etc.

Installing apps seem to be the same. Chrome works in metro now it seems. I want to know how to force everything to launch to the desktop - then win 8 would work but still no reason to spend another $50-80 on something thats not needed. esp since the main feature they are selling is the main feature im bypassing.

oh wow, chrome works. i heard an article that stated other browser makers were mad because their browsers wouldn't work with 8. But hey this can avert another anti-trust case like the last time

[Anthonyd]

once this was figured out, its windows 7 with that annoying launch interface. getting 'right click' in IE10 required right clicking, going to the wrench, launching in desktop mode - then i had the normal context menu back with print, send to, email. etc.

Installing apps seem to be the same. Chrome works in metro now it seems. I want to know how to force everything to launch to the desktop - then win 8 would work but still no reason to spend another $50-80 on something thats not needed. esp since the main feature they are selling is the main feature im bypassing.

There's an option inside IE to use the Desktop version only.