POLL: Dota 2 or League of Legends?


Dota 2 or LOL  

117 members have voted

  1. 1. Which to start playing?

    • Dota 2
      50
    • League of Legends
      42


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Then you are incorrect. These things happen in League whenever a new champion is released which something slightly more quirky than usual. Items only buyable by specific champions. Characters that can teleport across maps or disappear in bushes. Champions that can swap places, two you across the map, have a reverse mana bar, etc. Do these change the fundamentals of the game? No. They are just new, her/item specific mechanics that shake things up a bit. You could have or not have them in the game and it would still be Dota.

Can you point me towards LoL's version of Rubick? Invoker? Lone Druid? Hey, what about Naga Siren and Dark Seer?

No? Didn't think so.

These heroes have a significant impact on the mechanics in a match, and require serious attention during the pick/ban phase.

Yeah, on Steam. Where is MW3's playerbase? The CONSOLES.

I couldn't give a rat's ass about console numbers. This is the PC we're talking about here, and I really, REALLY hope I shouldn't have to explain why a dual SP/MP console FPS is not only outside the audience for a PC FPS, but yet another utterly idiotic comparison numerically. Because I think I would cry if I had to explain the blindingly obvious.

The numbers are right there, on the PC - People play CS more than MP MW3. You were wrong, deal with it.

Just give it up, seriously. You were wrong about the skill level, and your (second) attempt at an analogy to support said skill argument was ALSO wrong. Stop digging, and move on.

That's true, you didn't. Crimson Rain did, which is what I was mentioning.

I fail to see how this is relevant to me. So what if he said x, I'm not him.

Burden. Of. Knowledge. I'd rather players learn the game before getting tossed into advanced tactics immediately. Especially if they don't have teammates that are helping them out. I am an advocate of learning the hard way but not at the expense of others. Throwing everything at someone right away gives them so many options that many will blank out and not know what to do. This has nothing to do with a tutorial. The only reason you guys are ok with no levels/progression through the game is because you are seasoned Dota players and already understand the game. That doesn't help new players. Everyone has to start somewhere and starting them in an arena with seasoned players is the fastest way to get them to quit the game.

Just FYI but, Dota 2 was the first game of the genre I've ever played. So no, I'm not a seasoned Dota player. I got an invite from a friend at the start of November last year when Omniknight was ported.

Do you know what I did? I jumped into the game solo, loaded up practice mode with bots, and played the damn game. And that's exactly what I'm suggesting other new players should do, plus a tutorial - if you'd have bothered to read what I wrote, rather than just parrot Riot's inane buzzwords.

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Can you point me towards LoL's version of Rubick? Invoker? Lone Druid? Hey, what about Naga Siren and Dark Seer?

No? Didn't think so.

These heroes have a significant impact on the mechanics in a match, and require serious attention during the pick/ban phase.

And there are many champions in League that have a significant impact on the way the game is played. Does that change the game itself? No. Your examples, as I look at them, just unique Hero specific mechanics. That doesn't change the mechanics of the game itself, just the dynamic of current match. I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by "change the game". I mean alterations of the setup, not how players play because X hero/champ was picked. That's not the same thing.

I couldn't give a rat's ass about console numbers. This is the PC we're talking about here, and I really, REALLY hope I shouldn't have to explain why a dual SP/MP console FPS is not only outside the audience for a PC FPS, but yet another utterly idiotic comparison numerically. Because I think I would cry if I had to explain the blindingly obvious.

The numbers are right there, on the PC - People play CS more than MP MW3. You were wrong, deal with it.

Just give it up, seriously. You were wrong about the skill level, and your (second) attempt at an analogy to support said skill argument was ALSO wrong. Stop digging, and move on.

If you want to measure a game's playerbase, include its entire playerbase. That means that you have to look to consoles as well for MW3. "Not giving a rat's ass" doesn't change the fact that MW3 has a gigantic playerbase period, regardless of platform. You can't arbitrarily limit that to make your point more sound. But seeing as we brought up consoles this ties in well to my argument that people like simplicity. Why do so many people play Console games over PC games? Cause a console is easier to own/troubleshoot than a PC is. Which means that people play consoles cause they are a smoother experience and get less in the way of their gaming (bugs w/ certain hardware configurations, unsupported hardware, virus', portability, couch vs. desk, etc). Does that make Console gaming better? No. Is PC gaming better cause it uses more hardcore stuff? No. They are just different ways of playing and Consoles make it easier to do so. That is the same opinion I have with LoL. It makes playing the game and learning the game easy and painless.

I fail to see how this is relevant to me. So what if he said x, I'm not him.

I never said you were. But you seem to think a upward progression equates to a barrier. I challenge you to find a single LoL player who thinks that they hit any barriers starting out in the game. You probably won't find any.

Just FYI but, Dota 2 was the first game of the genre I've ever played. So no, I'm not a seasoned Dota player. I got an invite from a friend at the start of November last year when Omniknight was ported.

Do you know what I did? I jumped into the game solo, loaded up practice mode with bots, and played the damn game. And that's exactly what I'm suggesting other new players should do, plus a tutorial - if you'd have bothered to read what I wrote, rather than just parrot Riot's inane buzzwords.

Parot Riot's buzzwords? The phrase "Burden of Knowledge" has been around FAR longer than Riot or even Dota. Burden of Knowledge can be applied to any multiplayer experience and I used it back when I played 1.6 after the game had been out for years. In 1.6 that is directly represented by the ability to shoot through specific walls, which while not intentional was something that new players couldn't really grasp but was "part of the game". The same thing happened in Halo CE/2 when the button combos and superjumps were discovered. Stuff that only experienced players knew about and weren't something you could easily learn. Now my examples may be glitches in the game, but ARTS's are filled with knowledge burden specifically because of their origins as a mod. A lot of the game isn't intuitive and has many aspects that aren't easily figured out. Dota 2 makes no effort to introduce those concepts. You say to just jump into a match and go? What about last hitting, laning, ganking, jungling, towers, items (and their builds), shops, secret shop, etc. When I was playing Dota 2 it took me a while to find the secret shop on the map because I never happened upon it. I didn't even know it was there till I looked at an item that required it.

The simple existence of the secret shop is causing a "burden of knowledge" situation. If you think I'm just spouting **** from Riot here you're mistaken. I've had an issue with Burden of Knowledge in game design since I played Chess when I was younger.

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And there are many champions in League that have a significant impact on the way the game is played. Does that change the game itself? No. Your examples, as I look at them, just unique Hero specific mechanics. That doesn't change the mechanics of the game itself, just the dynamic of current match. I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by "change the game". I mean alterations of the setup, not how players play because X hero/champ was picked. That's not the same thing.

Alterations of the setup? Please tell me you're not talking about laning. I really will cry this time if you are.

If you want to measure a game's playerbase, include its entire playerbase. That means that you have to look to consoles as well for MW3. "Not giving a rat's ass" doesn't change the fact that MW3 has a gigantic playerbase period, regardless of platform. You can't arbitrarily limit that to make your point more sound. But seeing as we brought up consoles this ties in well to my argument that people like simplicity. Why do so many people play Console games over PC games? Cause a console is easier to own/troubleshoot than a PC is. Which means that people play consoles cause they are a smoother experience and get less in the way of their gaming (bugs w/ certain hardware configurations, unsupported hardware, virus', portability, couch vs. desk, etc). Does that make Console gaming better? No. Is PC gaming better cause it uses more hardcore stuff? No. They are just different ways of playing and Consoles make it easier to do so. That is the same opinion I have with LoL. It makes playing the game and learning the game easy and painless

What do you not understand about the concept of audience? Did it ever occur to you that the mere nature of being a console FPS completely changes and/or broadens the target audience? Or the fact you're trying to compare a dual SP/MP game to another game on a single platform, that has been out for 12 years now, that is only multiplayer?

Or the fact you're trying to compare sales numbers of a Triple A game to the active player count of what is essentially a mod?

I guess this topic has too high a "burden of knowledge" for you.

I never said you were. But you seem to think a upward progression equates to a barrier. I challenge you to find a single LoL player who thinks that they hit any barriers starting out in the game. You probably won't find any.

Upward progression? HAH. There is no reason or precedent for it, it is purely a device to support (create) a buisness model that works by forcing the player to grind or shell out some cash. Don't be so naive.

Parot Riot's buzzwords? The phrase "Burden of Knowledge" has been around FAR longer than Riot or even Dota. Burden of Knowledge can be applied to any multiplayer experience and I used it back when I played 1.6 after the game had been out for years. In 1.6 that is directly represented by the ability to shoot through specific walls, which while not intentional was something that new players couldn't really grasp but was "part of the game". The same thing happened in Halo CE/2 when the button combos and superjumps were discovered. Stuff that only experienced players knew about and weren't something you could easily learn. Now my examples may be glitches in the game, but ARTS's are filled with knowledge burden specifically because of their origins as a mod. A lot of the game isn't intuitive and has many aspects that aren't easily figured out. Dota 2 makes no effort to introduce those concepts. You say to just jump into a match and go? What about last hitting, laning, ganking, jungling, towers, items (and their builds), shops, secret shop, etc. When I was playing Dota 2 it took me a while to find the secret shop on the map because I never happened upon it. I didn't even know it was there till I looked at an item that required it.

The simple existence of the secret shop is causing a "burden of knowledge" situation. If you think I'm just spouting **** from Riot here you're mistaken. I've had an issue with Burden of Knowledge in game design since I played Chess when I was younger.

It's funny how google's 2nd suggestion for "burden of k" is "burden of knowledge league of legends". Buzzword indeed.

"Dota 2 makes no attempt to introduce..." I'm sorry, are you suffering with alzheimer's? Because I swear I just mentioned a tutorial system as being one of the things that I'd like them to add, and is an actual work in progress.

It took you a while to find the secret shop? I found it on my first game, and I was completely new to the genre. It's marked on the damned map (Twice!), and even pings when you try to buy an item outside of it.

Anyway, I thought you liked Upward Progression? That learning thing? Yeah, it's an upward progression, a natural one at that too.

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You are suggesting that new heros completely alter the game's mechanics. They don't. They may add new mechanics to the mix but the game itself is the same. Just because you add a new weapon to a shooter doesn't make the game a different game. It's the same game with a new gun.

So if you added a gun that gave you the ability to fly, or granted unprecedented levels of movement to a "modurn worefear" type game, that wouldn't alter the game's mechanics?

Consoles have a larger target audience? Why is that? Is it the same reason league has a larger target audience? I don't know, but League seems to have easily migrated more players than WoW, Halo and MW combined to playing on the PC. Probably because the game is easy to play and doesn't require a masterpiece of a computer.

Nope. Form factor, pricing, ease of configuration, controllers. All of which result in a change of audience.

Also, do you honestly believe that any significant percentage of the MW crowd buys the game for single player? Perhaps with CoD 2 or WaW, and maybe Black Ops. But not MW.

Yes, they do. Shocking as it may be to you, some people actually have no interest in the MP aspect of the game.

Its a grind, yes. But Dota 2 has the same grind. You may not be grinding to open up aspects of the game, but you are grinding to learn the game as you suggested in Bot matches. So why not make that grind a little more constructive as they have done in LoL? I also still don't understand how a simple grind equates to multiple barriers to gameplay. In fact, many of my friends who just picked up League are perfectly fine with learning single champions at a time, or single lanes at a time. LoL's method lets people take things step by step. Learn Basics -> Champion -> Lane -> Masteries -> Summoner Abilities -> Runes, etc.

This progression is what makes the game so accessible, yet you feel it is a barrier. Perhaps it is more of a buffer, one that protects new players from being repeatedly dominated by experienced ones as well as keeps those newer players out of the seasoned player's games.

You don't understand what the term grind means do you? Learning is a natural element of every game, grind is an artificial hurdle created to serve/support a game mechanic or in this case, a buisness model.

I noticed that, too. But the term has been used outside of LoL: http://www.nber.org/papers/w11360, http://blog.game-pla...nal.pdf#page=12 (published in 2006), http://www.economist...2/06/innovation and it is even used in many other contexts. This phrase, however, has existed for a while.

Doesn't change the fact Riot have turned it into a meaningless buzzword.

I would prefer you stop attacking me personally, despite your obvious frustration. And a Tutorial isn't what I'm talking about. Dota has no progression for new players to ensure that from the start they are matched against like players. They may have their own skill measurement but that's pointless for new players if thy are pitted up against experienced ones. Dota 2 doesn't care if you are new or a veteran, it will put them in the same game.

You are wrong yet again. Dota 2 on first-load prompts a player to pick their skill level and matches them against those with equal skill levels. Regardless, did you not read the part where I clearly mentioned "practice mode"? Not only will there be a tutorial, but there is also a practice mode with bots (and/or friends) with a selection of difficulties including passive, AND for the slightly more experienced newbie - a co-op bot matchmaking system that assembles a team of 5 humans and matches them against bots.

Its not upward. It's asking people to climb a cliff with the possibility of people throwing rocks at you from the top. Sure, it's not a big cliff but have fun when you get matched with veterans and get your butt handed to you repeatedly (which will happen and you won't know why in Dota 2).

Oh please. The Dota "learning curve" is nothing but hyperbole. The only time it rings true is when the game is played at high skill levels. I.E. high ELO Captain's Mode

And honestly, when was the last time you actually played Dota 2? Because I've played a handful of public matchmaking games at newbie-ELO, and not once have I been matched against "veterans".

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emn1ty and athernar are both confusing themselves, each other, and generally making this thread hilarious.

From my limited experience of both games (under 30 hours of each game) I think they are both great games. If I was going to fully get into one, I would probably try have at dota, because from an outsiders perspective at least to me it seems the learning curve is larger, so more time needs to be invested but ultimately there would be a greater satisfaction and level of tactics once you knew what you were doing. As of now I just play lol once in a while because all my friends play and it's supper fun also.

edit: judging from time spent at official forums, lols community seems much more annoying and immature

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  • 10 months later...

     After playing both games for a bit I found that Dota 2 was incredibly individual and overly complex while League of Legends was heavily team based and very straightforward. Despite what people think, League is very calm and easy to play due to its simplicity. However, with the emphasis on teamwork, doing poorly aggravates some players. In about every match i have played, there is almost always one. In Dota 2, it's normally two people facing off instead of the rest of the team who are just there for the gold. Abilites in League were easier to use thanks to simple effects and low mana cost. Dota's abilities were more of one shots you would have to wait a bit to use, plus they had lengthier effects meaning you had to play as that hero a lot more than you would have to for a league champ to fully grasp how to use the ability. One can describe the art in Dota 2 as bland or in-depth while League's could be described as either childish or detailed. There is no better game, it depends on your personal preferences.

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