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Lance Armstrong stripped of all seven Tour de France wins by UCI

cycling doping lance armstrong tour de france

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#16 Astra.Xtreme

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:19

My question still stands to whether they actually had any physical proof. For the past 10 years, it's always been a group of washed-up cheaters that have been trying to bring Armstrong down with only "their word" as their proof. In my opinion, that's a bunch of BS.


#17 theyarecomingforyou

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:22

Well if he was so doped, then they could've easily came up with actual proof.
it's all bs.


They have financial records, testimony from teammates, anecdotal evidence (skipping practice when drug tests were due), tests that indicated he was on hormones (these failed to be reproduced which is highly unusual, suggesting collusion with anti-doping employees), a test that was positive for EPO (single test, so not admissible for anti-doping but valid in federal court), emails, he gave up contesting the charges, etc. Due to the nature of doping it's very difficult to obtain absolute proof but the evidence is overwhelmingly against him.

Occam's razor dictates that it is more likely he is guilty than the victim of a massive conspiracy. Nobody can speak with absolute certainty but it's naive to believe his word against the testimony of dozens of teammates and other evidence.

#18 ahhell

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:25

The "But..but...they all were doping!!" guys seem to be quite quiet now.

LOL.

#19 Steve B.

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:26

So hang on, what happens to records of the previous Tours then? Since Lance never 'won' them anymore, do the record books say 'No winner' since the winner isn't reassigned, or something else? I'm wondering about this.

#20 Javik

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:33

I couldn't see a decision like this being made lightly and without recourse so if the evidence against him is as telling as it seemed I believe the right decision has been made. Cheating in sport should be punished with lifetime bans and nothing less in my opinion.

And from what I can gather the options to both re-assign the wins to someone else or declare them as having no winner are open.

#21 coresx

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:37

They have financial records, testimony from teammates, anecdotal evidence (skipping practice when drug tests were due), tests that indicated he was on hormones (these failed to be reproduced which is highly unusual, suggesting collusion with anti-doping employees), a test that was positive for EPO (single test, so not admissible for anti-doping but valid in federal court), emails, he gave up contesting the charges, etc. Due to the nature of doping it's very difficult to obtain absolute proof but the evidence is overwhelmingly against him.

Occam's razor dictates that it is more likely he is guilty than the victim of a massive conspiracy. Nobody can speak with absolute certainty but it's naive to believe his word against the testimony of dozens of teammates and other evidence.


Also the fact he beat dopers in the races. Someone clean wouldn't be able to do that so convincenly.

I know he was amazing to watch and a great hero but he is a fraud now. The time to defend him is over, people are starting to sound like the wife who defends her partner even though he beats her.

I don't think they should even bother awarding the titles to other riders, you just can't be sure during that time and way before that. Just take the black mark on cycling history and start now, clean and lean.

#22 HawkMan

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:40

Well if he was so doped, then they could've easily came up with actual proof.
it's all bs.


Tests weren't good enough back thn, and it's a really hard doping method to detect to start with.

#23 Charisma

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:42

Charisma, it's not all a lie. He still beat other people who "cheated". In my opinion, and I now this isn't shared by everyone, I think doping should become legal and call it a day. As a viewer that just wants to be entertained (and I stress that), I'd much rather watch people doing extraordinary feats.

Well, I thought about it a bit and you're partially right. He did still beat others who cheated, and it still took a lot of hard work and discipline--I mean, I could take the same drugs and I couldn't just go and win this thing, it takes a lot more. But it's still 1) cheating with an added edge, and 2) against the rules.

But I disagree with your second point. This is about more than just entertainment, it's a competition and people take it seriously, especially when you factor in the prizes they receive and the records that are set. It's not just about what you and I want to see--if you just want to see people doing crazy extraordinary things, there are other programs on TV for that.

#24 MightyJordan

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:53

By allowing doping you effectively make it impossible for anyone not doping to compete. If all you care about is entertainment then go watch Honey Boo Boo but I don't want to see international sport turned into a competition to see who can inject the most dangerous substances into their bodies without stroking out. If that's what you consider "entertainment" then that's very sad.

I think a more appropriate option (as Andy Parsons said on Mock the Week) would be to separate the dopers into their own categories. Let them have their own events and records. I'm a firm believer in natural selection; if someone wants to deliberately screw up their bodies, let them. The gene pool needs a little chlorine.

#25 theyarecomingforyou

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:59

Well, I thought about it a bit and you're partially right. He did still beat others who cheated, and it still took a lot of hard work and discipline--I mean, I could take the same drugs and I couldn't just go and win this thing, it takes a lot more. But it's still 1) cheating with an added edge, and 2) against the rules.


There's no doubt that even as a cheater he was a great athlete and an incredibly dedicated individual. You can't simply inject a few substances into your body and win international competitions. However, the rules are absolutely explicit when it comes to cheating being unacceptable, and both morally and legally he was wrong to do so. He committed fraud and that shouldn't be tolerated and certainly shouldn't be idolised.

I think a more appropriate option (as Andy Parsons said on Mock the Week) would be to separate the dopers into their own categories. Let them have their own events and records. I'm a firm believer in natural selection; if someone wants to deliberately screw up their bodies, let them. The gene pool needs a little chlorine.


Unfortunately that won't stop cheating and it will take away advertising from the true sportsmen.

#26 remixedcat

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 14:07

He was still a damn good person and role model. The people that wanna shame him should be ashamed of themselves for being such pitiful jealous babies that throw a fit when someone is better then them.

#27 ahhell

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 14:12

He was still a damn good person and role model. The people that wanna shame him should be ashamed of themselves for being such pitiful jealous babies that throw a fit when someone is better then them.


LOL WAT?

He was a ****ty person and a fraud. How exactly does that make him a good role model? :s

#28 +Chicane-UK

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 14:13

A pretty sad story all round :(

#29 PGHammer

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 14:22

He was still a damn good person and role model. The people that wanna shame him should be ashamed of themselves for being such pitiful jealous babies that throw a fit when someone is better then them.


And that's what the whole thing comes down to, remixed - jealousy.

Does anyone remember Greg LeMond (if anything, the original inspiration for Americans in world-class cycling in Europe)? HE was accused (roundly) of cheating, and it was the investigation of him that originally caught all those teams in that massive doping scandal that forced one European superteam to disband entirely - and he was merely the first American to win back-to-back Tours.

Bicycle road racing is as bad (easily) as F1 racing in Europe, and there's ALWAYS been a strong sense of "Europe over all" in both sports (the Italians tried to "claim" Mario Andretti when he won his first F1 driving title, despite there being plenty of evidence that he had never raced in Italy outside of F1 AND that his racing career began in Pennsylvania - Emerson Fittipaldi got HIS share of jeers, because he was from SOUTH America).

And it really does NOT help that the United States (and especially our bureaucracies) have their share of Europhiles.

#30 MDboyz

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 14:28

He is still the winner at this point for me. They have to release the physical evidents that he used drugs. I don't care that because all his team mates were cheated and they said he did it too. Who knows all his team mates may have the issue with him, and wanted to pull him down with them.