Jump to content



Photo

Friend planned $50K kidnapping, but baby died

pennsylvania india citizen grandmother killed

  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#16 theyarecomingforyou

theyarecomingforyou

    Tiger Trainer

  • 15,428 posts
  • Joined: 07-August 03
  • Location: Terra Prime Profession: Jaded Sceptic
  • OS: Windows 8.1
  • Phone: Galaxy Note 3 with Galaxy Gear

Posted 28 October 2012 - 17:54

If society started killing people who kill, I am willing to bet we would have a lot less killers out there.


You would think that but it's simply not true. For example, compare the murder rate of the US and the UK - even though the US has the death penalty and stricter prison sentences the murder rate is actually four times higher. Hardened killers have a complete disregard for the law and are not going to be deterred by anything, while most murders are committed in the heat of the moment. In this case it wasn't even murder but manslaughter. Social factors play a much greater role in the rate of crime than 'deterrents' like the death penalty.

Society needs a justice system that reflects modern times. The era of biblical style retribution is thankfully long over in most countries, with the US lagging half a century behind as usual.


#17 +Nik L

Nik L

    Where's my pants?

  • 33,589 posts
  • Joined: 14-January 03

Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:17

i meant it kind of two fold sarcastically ..yes, the killers would be dead, so scratch them off the list. I think too if people KNEW that the sentence for murder was the cost of your OWN life, it would deter the pre-planned murders. You would still have flash anger killings since people are not thinking 100% clear in times like that (example: walking in on your wife will she is voluntarily having sex with her boyfriend). Over all, there would be a DRASTIC drop in killings since most killers are scared only for 1 thing, their own life.

Except you know that doesn't work right? As proven many many times over. The more you reduce the value of life, the more killing there is, plain and simple.

#18 rippleman

rippleman

    Neowinian Senior

  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: 17-June 09
  • Location: Near Calgary, Alberta
  • OS: Windows 7
  • Phone: Nexus 4

Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:23

You all must have a different mind set from a different culture. I disagree and think killers deserve death. Sorry.

#19 +Nik L

Nik L

    Where's my pants?

  • 33,589 posts
  • Joined: 14-January 03

Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:24

You all must have a different mind set from a different culture. I disagree and think killers deserve death. Sorry.

I'm not commenting on what you agree with or what I think. I am telling you as a fact that when people reduce life down to such a low level, then violent crimes rise.

#20 Growled

Growled

    Neowinian Senior

  • 41,508 posts
  • Joined: 17-December 08
  • Location: USA

Posted 28 October 2012 - 23:36

eye for an eye... I vote string him up...

If society started killing people who kill, I am willing to bet we would have a lot less killers out there.


I agree. They don't have to worry about punishment so they don't care one way or another.

#21 OP Hum

Hum

    totally wAcKed

  • 60,803 posts
  • Joined: 05-October 03
  • Location: Odder Space
  • OS: Windows XP, 7

Posted 29 October 2012 - 15:35

^ Few people who commit murder on the spur of the moment, are thinking about punishments.

#22 ahhell

ahhell

    Neowinian Senior

  • 8,896 posts
  • Joined: 30-June 03
  • Location: Winnipeg - coldest place on Earth - yeah

Posted 29 October 2012 - 15:47

No, we'd have the same amount. Those who kill murderers are themselves murderers, driven by prehistoric human anger.


:rolleyes:

#23 +chconline

chconline

    I review, not promote.

  • 13,146 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 04
  • Location: Calgary, AB, Canada

Posted 29 October 2012 - 15:59

Wow, I'm surprised how many people on here are so pro-death penalty.

1) What if a person is wrongly convicted? You can't undo a death penalty.
2) Even if you kill the murderer, it's not like the dead person will come back to life. I think people should be given a second chance to repent. A person who has realized what they have done is wrong and turn themselves for the better, is better than a person who is killed without realizing their wrongdoings. There is no justification for murder, and people should most definitely pay for their actions, but taking their life is a terrible thing.

Sure one may argue that those who see no value in life should not deserve life. But if we as a society value life more, and give them a chance, maybe that would be the more constructive thing to do.

I know I sound like a idealistic liberal (Honestly I'm a realist conservative at heart lol :p ) but I have seen truly terrible people who have turned from what they've done and it is really a great thing to see. It's amazing to see and hear of those accounts. Sure, they have done wrong in the past, yes they are still paying for it, which they should. I also agree there is nothing they can do to undo the hurt. There are also many who will never see their mistakes. But why should we give everyone death penalty for those who will never realize they're wrong, rather than giving everyone a chance for those who are truly sorry for what they've done?

#24 Digit12345

Digit12345

    Neowinian

  • 107 posts
  • Joined: 01-September 12

Posted 29 October 2012 - 16:31

No, we'd have the same amount. Those who kill murderers are themselves murderers, driven by prehistoric human anger.


It's likely the case that it wouldn't be a one to one correspondence between murderer and retribution murderer so you'd probably be wrong there. :p
Joking aside, I'm not a fan of murder as a solution to murder, but if I had to choose between one and the other, I'd rather the retribution motivated one. It's the lesser evil. One might murder me for any number of reasons for personal gain while the other would do so if I committed the crime of murdering. I'll take my chances.

Wow, I'm surprised how many people on here are so pro-death penalty.

1) What if a person is wrongly convicted? You can't undo a death penalty.
2) Even if you kill the murderer, it's not like the dead person will come back to life. I think people should be given a second chance to repent. A person who has realized what they have done is wrong and turn themselves for the better, is better than a person who is killed without realizing their wrongdoings. There is no justification for murder, and people should most definitely pay for their actions, but taking their life is a terrible thing.

Sure one may argue that those who see no value in life should not deserve life. But if we as a society value life more, and give them a chance, maybe that would be the more constructive thing to do.

I know I sound like a idealistic liberal (Honestly I'm a realist conservative at heart lol :p ) but I have seen truly terrible people who have turned from what they've done and it is really a great thing to see. It's amazing to see and hear of those accounts. Sure, they have done wrong in the past, yes they are still paying for it, which they should. I also agree there is nothing they can do to undo the hurt. There are also many who will never see their mistakes. But why should we give everyone death penalty for those who will never realize they're wrong, rather than giving everyone a chance for those who are truly sorry for what they've done?


I'm not pro-death penalty either but I do feel your argument is too idealistic. Deaths certainly can't be undone but if you look at the raw percentages, the number of wrongful convictions probably pales in comparison to the correct ones. It's definitely a scary thought to think that there can be wrongful deaths but it's a statistical tradeoff.

As it currently functions, prison hardly rehabilitates inmates. Until that is fixed, criminals that come out of prison are usually more hardened and cunning than before and are likely to cause more collateral damage to society either by committing another crime or by corrupting and dragging another person into the cycle.

The death penalty certainly is a flawed solution but it has some merits. There are worse solutions and there are better solutions. Frankly, I don't see the "giving a second chance" as a really sound solution to be honest. The better solution would be to minimize the chances of running into this dilemma to begin with, not primarily waiting for crap to hit the fan and then deal with it.

#25 rippleman

rippleman

    Neowinian Senior

  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: 17-June 09
  • Location: Near Calgary, Alberta
  • OS: Windows 7
  • Phone: Nexus 4

Posted 29 October 2012 - 18:37

Wow, I'm surprised how many people on here are so pro-death penalty.

1) What if a person is wrongly convicted? You can't undo a death penalty.

2) Even if you kill the murderer, it's not like the dead person will come back to life. I think people should be given a second chance to repent.


1) Then it sucks to be that person. There is no such thing as a perfect system.

2) Second chances is a VERY expensive gamble. You gamble they won't reoffend at the cost of millions of dollars.

Inefficiency is the downfall. Make it efficient. If someone murders on a Monday and its without a shadow of a doubt they did it? or plead guilty? They die on Friday.

#26 LaP

LaP

    Forget about it

  • 5,147 posts
  • Joined: 10-July 06
  • Location: Quebec City, Canada
  • OS: Windows 8.1 Pro Update 1

Posted 29 October 2012 - 18:47

i meant it kind of two fold sarcastically ..yes, the killers would be dead, so scratch them off the list. I think too if people KNEW that the sentence for murder was the cost of your OWN life, it would deter the pre-planned murders. You would still have flash anger killings since people are not thinking 100% clear in times like that (example: walking in on your wife will she is voluntarily having sex with her boyfriend). Over all, there would be a DRASTIC drop in killings since most killers are scared only for 1 thing, their own life.


It's a strange comment from a canadian as Canada as a lower murders rate per capita than USA which has death penality.

http://en.wikipedia....l_homicide_rate

#27 rippleman

rippleman

    Neowinian Senior

  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: 17-June 09
  • Location: Near Calgary, Alberta
  • OS: Windows 7
  • Phone: Nexus 4

Posted 29 October 2012 - 18:59

It's a strange comment from a canadian as Canada as a lower murders rate per capita than USA which has death penality.

http://en.wikipedia....l_homicide_rate

i wouldn't mix up culture with crime... even though I know what the numbers seem to imply at first.

edit: errr... not sure how to put it into words, may not be the correct wording...

#28 LaP

LaP

    Forget about it

  • 5,147 posts
  • Joined: 10-July 06
  • Location: Quebec City, Canada
  • OS: Windows 8.1 Pro Update 1

Posted 29 October 2012 - 19:02

i wouldn't mix up culture with crime... even though I know what the numbers seem to imply at first.


Is not the death penality a reflect of the culture ?

#29 +chconline

chconline

    I review, not promote.

  • 13,146 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 04
  • Location: Calgary, AB, Canada

Posted 29 October 2012 - 19:23

1) Then it sucks to be that person. There is no such thing as a perfect system.

2) Second chances is a VERY expensive gamble. You gamble they won't reoffend at the cost of millions of dollars.

Inefficiency is the downfall. Make it efficient. If someone murders on a Monday and its without a shadow of a doubt they did it? or plead guilty? They die on Friday.


And what if you were the person? Sure it's a statistic, but even if 0.01% of the convictions were incorrect, then why must an innocent person sacrifice?

Efficiency? We're talking about a human life here... whether they deserve to live or not, I think life has infinite value.

#30 rippleman

rippleman

    Neowinian Senior

  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: 17-June 09
  • Location: Near Calgary, Alberta
  • OS: Windows 7
  • Phone: Nexus 4

Posted 29 October 2012 - 19:29

And what if you were the person? Sure it's a statistic, but even if 0.01% of the convictions were incorrect, then why must an innocent person sacrifice?

Efficiency? We're talking about a human life here... whether they deserve to live or not, I think life has infinite value.

sometimes bad sh*t happens to good people. that 1 falsely accused life is NOT worth the lives of thousands of others who could be saved by not taking chances with ALL killers. Are the "unfalesly accused" innocent people not important too?

Is not the death penality a reflect of the culture ?


before I answer that, let me ask a question first: the guy in THIS story, do you feel he should be sentenced to death or let go for a second chance?



Click here to login or here to register to remove this ad, it's free!