429 posts in this topic

Posted

[quote name='Calum' timestamp='1351442068' post='595279139']
I'm not sure what you mean, so could you possibly expand more, please? :) The Start screen caters for all of the functions that the Start Menu did, accessible with the same amount of clicks as they were in the Start Menu, along with more functions. So you can do everything on the Start screen with just a click that you could do on the Start Menu with just a click. I might be missing something, so please point out if I am, but I don't think I am, as nothing of the sort has stood out to me since I started using Windows 8 daily in February.

I don't have to remember any commands for doing things that the Start Menu used to do. There are some commands I know for doing things like bringing up the Charms bar, but I don't actually use keyboard shortcuts for things like that (I use my mouse). Even if I did use keyboard shortcuts for those features, remembering them wouldn't be a problem. We're intelligent enough for that to not be a problem.

I didn't have to "relearn" anything. I had no problem using Windows 8 or the Start screen from the first minute I installed it, and using the Start screen hasn't ever been slower than the Start Menu, for me.
[/quote]

I disagree that the start screen caters for everything the Start menu did, for a start the Start menu didn't take you away from the desktop. And can you tell me how having to go to a screen full of Tiles (live or not) which I don't need, don't use and don't want is helpful, intuitive or even makes any kind of sense . I do like the increase in speed and the fact that programs appear to run better, but they could have achieved that without screwing up the interface. I always pick up new versions of the OS or Office as soon as they are available and have been using Windows 8 on my Samsung Slate (which goes straight to the desktop) as soon as it went public and it works relatively OK on a Slate (but I still have no use for the Tiles). I am an ICT Operations Manager running 2700 Desktops and laptops and can see no valid reason for driving several thousand people crazy with this operating system. Also the new Office 2013 is just eye blistering boring, it looks like it belongs in a kindergarten, where I work Windows 8 and Office 2013 are generally referred to as the Fisher Price version. It's not a case of liking it or not liking it, its just a fact that there's not a good enough reason for the average user to want to migrate to it.

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Posted

Who is the article writer when he isn't at home and why should I remotely care about his opinions any more than some random Wordpress blog on the matter?

Regarding Windows 8 - really, the more I hear the whining and the more I get to know Windows 8 it is clear to me that we have a small noisy group of people unwilling and/or unable to simply adapt to the changes that are taking place at Microsoft. I log in, I've setup my pinned items on the start page and click on desktop so back to work as usual. As for the full screen alerts, they're there for a reason - because the average user is a moron and they're forced to actually read the alert rather than clicking on without taking any consideration as to the impact of their decision.

Anyway back to the original point - why should the article writers opinion hold any more weight than my own other than him having a more high profile platform to sell it on.

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Posted

[quote name='Calum' timestamp='1351859913' post='595291557']
I don't see how they could have added that to the Charms bar without ruining the design and UI. I do think that them placing it in the Settings area may have not been appropriate, though, even though I don't mind the extra click (as no one should). Perhaps placing it in the user drop-down on the Start screen would have been the best idea, as there are other similar options there (e.g. locking the PC).
[/quote]

This is how they should have done it.

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Posted

[quote name='Calum' timestamp='1351859913' post='595291557']I don't see how they could have added that to the Charms bar without ruining the design and UI. I do think that them placing it in the Settings area may have not been appropriate, though, even though I don't mind the extra click (as no one should). [b]Perhaps placing it in the user drop-down on the Start screen would have been the best idea[/b], as there are other similar options there (e.g. locking the PC).[/quote]

Yeah, that's what I've been saying for a while now. That would have been a sensible place to put it, with the other contender being the right-click start corner menu. Shutting down your computer isn't a "Setting" and the Charm bar is awkward at best, especially when you have multiple monitors and the cursor can easily disappear off onto the next display. The extra click isn't the issue - it's the awkwardness of triggering the Charm bar, the tardiness of the process and the illogical categorisation of shutting down as a "Setting".

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Posted

Perhaps a compromise solution is to just add it to the Win+X menu to appease desktop users in a future patch, but leave it in the Charms menu for tablet users. For what it's worth, Windows 8/RT at least presents a visible option for turning off or rebooting the machine, whereas on the other competing tablet OSes, it requires holding down the power button to expose the shutdown option (and for iOS, no obvious way to do a clean reboot).

[s]That being said, I recall there being a way to easily modify the Win+X menu. Someone posted a howto on Neowin but I can't find it :/[/s]
edit: it's over here: http://www.howtogeek.com/113775/add-shutdown-and-reboot-to-the-windows-8-winx-menu/

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Posted

[quote name='theyarecomingforyou' timestamp='1351879951' post='595292331']
Yeah, that's what I've been saying for a while now. That would have been a sensible place to put it, with the other contender being the right-click start corner menu. Shutting down your computer isn't a "Setting" and the Charm bar is awkward at best, especially when you have multiple monitors and the cursor can easily disappear off onto the next display. The extra click isn't the issue - it's the awkwardness of triggering the Charm bar, the tardiness of the process and the illogical categorisation of shutting down as a "Setting".
[/quote]

Exactly, it makes absolutely no sense for it to be there. Shutting down via the gui was much easier in windows 7.

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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1351813853' post='595290695']
So, in other words, you want to run all over your OS? Smartscreen is there for a reason. Any self respected developer should be signing their apps. These pop ups are no more annoying than any other pop up you get from the OS.
[/quote]

Why should they? Digital signing is both expensive, and provides no guarantee that your software actually works.
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Posted

[quote name='theyarecomingforyou' timestamp='1351879951' post='595292331']
Yeah, that's what I've been saying for a while now. That would have been a sensible place to put it, with the other contender being the right-click start corner menu. Shutting down your computer isn't a "Setting" and the Charm bar is awkward at best, especially when you have multiple monitors and the cursor can easily disappear off onto the next display. The extra click isn't the issue - it's the awkwardness of triggering the Charm bar, the tardiness of the process and the illogical categorisation of shutting down as a "Setting".
[/quote]

With multiple monitors it's only awkward if you try to do it slow and precise. If you just jam the mouse cursor into the corners it "sticks" and you get the Charms/Start etc. to come up. Some say that doesn't work, I would guess they are trying to jam too far up towards the middle of the screen. You have to do a motion that first touches the bottom of the screen and ends up in the corner. Hasn't failed for me yet.

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Posted

[quote name='Javik' timestamp='1351797432' post='595290093']
Ahh my old friend the "it's newer so it must be better" mantra. It's my call to make usability decisions not yours ;) when I consider a change to be worth adapting to (like the superbar) I will adapt to it.
[/quote]

It's moreso progression, not so much "newer is better". The way people bitch and moan about change around here I'm surprised half of Neowin doesn't still use DOS.

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Posted

Doesn't make any difference how it's rationalised, the fact that there's so much polarisation should indicate that it's not "progression" but a huge risk that hasn't pleased everyone. The majority of the reaction that I saw to the superbar with Windows 7 was positive so I don't buy the argument that people are reluctant to change, they just genuinely dislike it.
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[quote name='neufuse' timestamp='1351817510' post='595290875']
good greif did you miss the point? I am saying why are we getting full screen prompts and banners that take over what you are doing this has nothing to do with smartscreen but the fact its one of the ones that is showing it
[/quote]i haven't seen any of those Windows Update banners, even after i do the update i don't get the restart banner, and i went 3 days for one of the updates before restarting to finish it

and the standard smart screen banner i see rarely enough that it doesn't bother me (just like good ol UAC)

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Posted

[quote name='Javik' timestamp='1351888506' post='595292713']
Doesn't make any difference how it's rationalised, the fact that there's so much polarisation should indicate that it's not "progression" but a huge risk that hasn't pleased everyone. The majority of the reaction that I saw to the superbar with Windows 7 was positive so I don't buy the argument that people are reluctant to change, they just genuinely dislike it.
[/quote]

You bring up the Superbar, which is a good place to pin your apps, and that pretty much made the traditional Start menu useless. I'm just confused as to what functionality many people seem to be losing, to the point that they're laughably paying money to get the Start menu back in Windows 8. Pinning apps to the Start menu? Fair enough, but anything that could've been pinned to the Start menu can be pinned to the Start screen, along with many other things that couldn't be pinned to the Start menu, i.e. folders.

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Posted

[quote name='FrozenEclipse' timestamp='1351892335' post='595292871']
I'm just confused as to what functionality many people seem to be losing, to the point that they're laughably paying money to get the Start menu back in Windows 8.
[/quote]

Yes, this, lol!

Many are paying for that 'third party' app to get just that, and use it as an excuse for anything, to protect their 'beloved' OS, that is, Win8 :)

In all reality, they lost more when installing this piece of crap, and no app will ever make it seem otherwise :)

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Posted

[quote name='scaramonga' timestamp='1351915189' post='595293695']
Yes, this, lol!

Many are paying for that 'third party' app to get just that, and use it as an excuse for anything, to protect their 'beloved' OS, that is, Win8 :)

In all reality, they lost more when installing this piece of crap, and no app will ever make it seem otherwise :)
[/quote]

scaramonga, those like you that are insisting on FORCING users to choose really have no idea what the reason for being for Windows 8 (not WindowsRT) is.

WindowsRT and Windows 8, despite their UI similarity, have different reasons for being.

WindowsRT specifically targets the tablet/device space (Android and iOS) and is geared almost entirely toward content consumption.

Windows 8, on the other hand, is a superset OS - it has both the Win32 environment (minus the Start menu) that Windows 7 and before have had, and the WinRT API (in addition to being by and large cross-compatible with WindowsRT, and capable of runing a lot of the same apps).

WinRT is not meant to replace Win32 - at all (except maybe in the VERY long term - somewhere out around Windows 10, if not later). Augment, yes - replace, no.

Microsoft cannot, under any circumstances, ignore the tablet/slate/device space - neither in terms of operating system software or in terms of development for the space. Most of you know criticizing Windows 8 are well aware of it.

So why is it that you are acting like the old-school PC builders did when confronted with the first products by Falcon Northwest? (You've heard of them - the builders of those big bulky beige boxes that were, by and large, utterly another B word - boring!)

Why are you practically insisting that the PC ecosystem NOT change?

Computing IS changing and evolving - whether you, I, Google, Apple, or even Microsoft like it or not.

The Internet *alone* has changed more in just the past two years than in the 2000-2010 time frame - and its reach has changed with it.

Microsoft's choice is simple - grab the tiger by the ears and hang on. The ride WILL be bumpy; however, the alternative is to become lunch for those companies that can adapt to those changes.

And I can assure you that Microsoft no more wants to be the tiger's lunch than does Google - or Apple, for that matter.

And that means that Windows - the cornerstone of the company - must change with it.

The same applies to Google, and Apple, and everyone else.

Only time will tell whether the WinRT API will have the long life that Win32 has had - which is unheard-of in terms of staying power.

However, Win32 is not, and never has been, tied to the Start menu - if anything, Windows 8, and how Win32 applications behave in it, is hard data that proves it.

While some USERS may be tied to the functionality of the Start menu, that has nothing to do with the Win32 API.

I run mostly (but not exclusively) Win32 applications and games in Windows 8 today - could I do that if Win32 were tied to the Start menu?

The answer - as even the critics admit - is an emphatic and unreserved NO.

The whole thing is basically a tempest in a teapot at best.

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Posted

[quote name='scaramonga' timestamp='1351915189' post='595293695']
Yes, this, lol!

Many are paying for that 'third party' app to get just that, and use it as an excuse for anything, to protect their 'beloved' OS, that is, Win8 :)

In all reality, they lost more when installing this piece of crap, and no app will ever make it seem otherwise :)
[/quote]
It's a clean desk thing, for me at least. I don't use or care for the live tiles, so basically I've got a bunch of icon all over my nice clean desktop. Can you explain how the metro/modern ui isn't just a desktop with a bunch of icons sprinkled all over it. Yes, the "live tiles" are new but I could use rainmeter or a widget or whatever, to do the same and still have a clean desktop. Microsoft has trained me since Windows 95 to use the start menu, and other OSs followed suit.

Is it a disaster? No, but what really confuses me is that, who is anyone to tell me how to use my computer? Why do you (or anyone else) care if I install a third party app to give me functionality I want? There has to be something going on since there are a bunch of third party people churning out "start menu" apps, and a bunch people are using them. It's not as simple as people hate change, if it was easier/better for everyone then they'd be using it as it is.

Did I lose anything with "metro and no start menu" vs "start menu and no metro"? Nope, but did I gain anything? I don't think so, most of the improvements to Win7 that Win8 brought were under the hood. Can you or anyone explain what I gain with metro/no start vs start/no metro? Does having a lock screen with live tiles really benefit my desktop or laptop? Not, if I don't use "live tiles", it's just another key stroke. Thankfully that key stroke is given back easily by making and policy adjustment, and if Microsoft had left the "start menu" up to the user EVERYBODY would probably happy. I could keep on using my desktop in a manner I'm used to (and like), you if you chose to could enjoy metro and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

TL;DR - Different people want different things from their OS, it's not my place or yours tell tell how to do it, or what to install to make it the way they WANT it.

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Posted

You know, I just bought it to use it as my main OS. I did not install much when I first tried it, but I am installing Visual Studio 2010, Office 2010, Steam, and all my productivity software. I am only 20% done with my installation.

How is this better than what we had in the start menu? At least in there, everything was all organized in folders, sub-folders, and sub-sub-folders by default. I have not even installed my Adobe suite yet...imagine the mess when that is finished.

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Posted

[quote name='xWhiplash' timestamp='1351924712' post='595293797']
You know, I just bought it to use it as my main OS. I did not install much when I first tried it, but I am installing Visual Studio 2010, Office 2010, Steam, and all my productivity software. I am only 20% done with my installation.

How is this better than what we had in the start menu? At least in there, everything was all organized in folders, sub-folders, and sub-sub-folders by default. I have not even installed my Adobe suite yet...imagine the mess when that is finished.
[/quote]

You can group your apps, reduce tile sizes and hide stuff you don't use. Its not rocket science :) pin adobe stuff to superbar on desktop side if you need fast access.

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[quote name='spudtrooper' timestamp='1351925313' post='595293805']
You can group your apps, reduce tile sizes and hide stuff you don't use. Its not rocket science :) pin adobe stuff to superbar on desktop side if you need fast access.
[/quote]

Did you miss where I said everything is automatically grouped in folders by DEFAULT in the old start menu? I know how to group stuff, but it should be done by default just like with the folders in the start menu.

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Posted

[quote name='spudtrooper' timestamp='1351925313' post='595293805']
You can group your apps, reduce tile sizes and hide stuff you don't use. Its not rocket science :) pin adobe stuff to superbar on desktop side if you need fast access.
[/quote]
Sure you can hide it but have you even looked in the 'all apps' section if you have loads of stuff installed, its ridiculous.

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Posted

[quote name='tiagosilva29' timestamp='1351926900' post='595293817']
Serious question: can they refund you?

[/quote]

Wow what is with this forum? Did I say WAAAAA I bought this OS and it SUCKS!!!!!

No, All I did was give a legitimate complaint.

Geez, for $40 it is a decent upgrade, why the hell would I want a refund?

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Posted

[quote name='spudtrooper' timestamp='1351925313' post='595293805']
You can group your apps, reduce tile sizes and hide stuff you don't use. Its not rocket science :) pin adobe stuff to superbar on desktop side if you need fast access.
[/quote]

Or install a 'third-party' app and get rid of that useless mess altogether, yes. Sorry, but unless your an XBox/WP lover, ;), it's an absolute disaster, hideous to look at, unproductive, bolted on, and certainly not for the PC desktop.

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Posted

[quote name='aviator189' timestamp='1351439354' post='595278985']
I love windows 8 but i think ms could have avoided a lot of flack by just including the start menu. I mean, what was so horrible about keeping it??
well, start8 is still there and many others.
[/quote]
They are making a big change. Sometimes it is time to move forward for better or worse. People complained long long time ago when mice started to get used too.. it is slower to use a mouse that just command line.

[quote name='vcfan' timestamp='1351439558' post='595278999']
i was at best buy last night,and there were dozens of people at the windows 8 computer section,and zero on the apple and android side. In the 15 minutes i was there, they sold 4 windows 8 laptops, 2 windows 8 tablets, and 2 windows 8 desktops,and the rest of the store was pretty much dead.
[/quote]

It will be like this for a few months. It is new, people will want it. Just like when the Samsung G3 came out it was the hot thing a few months ago. When the N10 comes out again.. same thing. over and over.

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Posted

[quote name='Arceles' timestamp='1351441698' post='595279117'] I have a R.A.T. 5 Mouse (5200 dpi) speed doesn't solve that fact precisely... [/quote]

Dude how do you call yourself a tech guy? Your sig shows all your gadgets but you refuse to use them or learn anything new and better? Please uninstall everything kthx
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Posted

[quote name='TheLegendOfMart' timestamp='1351925727' post='595293813']

Sure you can hide it but have you even looked in the 'all apps' section if you have loads of stuff installed, its ridiculous.
[/quote]

The 'all apps' section is just the old start menu in expanded view.


[quote name='scaramonga' timestamp='1351927781' post='595293833']


Or install a 'third-party' app and get rid of that useless mess altogether, yes. Sorry, but unless your an XBox/WP lover, ;), it's an absolute disaster, hideous to look at, unproductive, bolted on, and certainly not for the PC desktop.
[/quote]

Huh. I could have swore I was using a non touch desktop with Win8.

I must be hallucinating.

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Posted

[quote name='mrdeezus' timestamp='1351967359' post='595294499']
Dude how do you call yourself a tech guy? Your sig shows all your gadgets but you refuse to use them or learn anything new and better? Please uninstall everything kthx
[/quote]

Oh, look... a comment that tries to self assure itself while bashing another by its supposed ignorance in the matter, I love it, there, I give you a like to show how much I care about your comment and whatever you think that I may know.

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