tomwarren Veteran Posted October 29, 2003 Veteran Share Posted October 29, 2003 What is "WinFS"? "WinFS" is the active storage subsystem in "Longhorn" that is used for searching, organizing, and sharing data. "WinFS" maintains a store of items and their properties, and provides a system service in "Longhorn" to retrieve information when it's needed. Because "WinFS" allows organization and retrieval of items based on properties (such as author or title), users can find things more quickly. Users can also organize, relate, and act on their documents, music, photos, e-mail, calendar information, and other types of items more efficiently. What are the benefits of Using "WinFS" In "WinFS," how information is organized is separate from how that information is stored physically. How users and applications organize information is also separate from how the information is saved. Data can be organized using a connected folder structure, namespaces, properties, tables, invariant identities, or relationships. To benefit developers, the "WinFS" platform supports unified data services for all end-user applications. Integrated data services such as synchronization, notification, a unified store, and a common security model, and their integration with other technologies such as peer-to-peer networking and directory services, make data sharing among applications easier. These data services enable you to write applications that exchange data with applications built by other software developers. Also, "WinFS" works with other Windows-based technologies to allow information sharing remotely with both "WinFS" and non"WinFS" stores. What is "WinFS" capable of? "WinFS" supports efficient indexing of file content, which enables rich querying that is very difficult to achieve with other file systems. For example, in "WinFS" it is easy to search files based on their content and other criteria such as file name, title, author, or date of publication. This would be difficult, if not impossible, in a traditional file system such as NTFS. In addition, "WinFS" still has efficient streaming capabilities?the cornerstone of traditional file systems?to handle large data values. "WinFS" can also be used with computers running earlier versions of Windows that support the NTFS file system. Files stored in "WinFS" can be accessed using the new "WinFS" API or the existing Win32 API. Therefore, existing Win32 applications can work with files stored in "WinFS" with little or no modification. In "Longhorn," files can be stored either in "WinFS" or on NTFS, but "WinFS" is more efficient and effective than NTFS for organizing, searching for, and sharing files. "WinFS" is particularly useful for storing data that needs to be queried or shared by users or applications. Advantages are largely because "WinFS" data is schematized, and the items can be related to each other in more than one way and, therefore, can be searched in multiple ways. You can still use NTFS for storing files that have few or no searching and sharing requirements. In fact, "Longhorn" uses NTFS for all the Windows system files needed for starting up and running the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timiun Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 (edited) I don't know if you know this, but WinFS uses NTFS - it doesn't replace it. It is a layer ONTOP of NTFS. (also see here: http://www.winsupersite.com/faq/longhorn.asp) So you always save your file to the underlying NTFS filesystem This has been pointed out many times by Microsoft I can see that you have used this document pretty much (copying different parts directly): http://msdn.microsoft.com/Longhorn/underst...pic_storage.asp and I can see that reading some of this, would allow one to think that WinFS was an all new filesystem (replacing NTFS), but i think when they talk about saving to either WinFS or NTFS, it has to do with the process of saving the file, rather than the actual "bit" saving. I think (I'm just thinking out loud here) that if you "save" to WinFS you might have to apply additional information in the "save" dialog OR you "save" the file directly to the indexing service (that WinFS actually is). But, the thing here is that your file is still going to be located on the NTFS volumen (and findable by the normal NTFS explorer?) Regards Jesper :) Edited October 29, 2003 by timiun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sn00pY Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 yeah thats what i thought cream [what timiun said] i didnt think WinFS was a whole new file system just thought it was a modified/improved/upgraded NTFS... Prove Me Wrong? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chino Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Can winFS also show the size of folders? this feature is missing from all windows OS's so far, and the few utilities that try to adress the issue appear to be quick hacks. This feature has been available to *nix users since stoneage :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RauL Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 (edited) to put it short , imagine like those google searchs , but in your Hard Disk , quicky quicky (like your first time with a girl :woot: . . . in bed . . . ) quicky quicky . . . you put say... : "my picture with Carmen Kass.jpg" and in 0.0156 seconds you get your file :rolleyes: like with GOOGLE quicky quicky i guess ... :yes: Edited October 29, 2003 by RauL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomwarren Veteran Posted October 29, 2003 Author Veteran Share Posted October 29, 2003 Where in this guide does it say about WinFS replacing NTFS? Read the last sentence, "Longhorn" uses NTFS for all the Windows system files needed for starting up and running the system. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helmers Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Well, I think it is a good idea. With all the extra RAM in new machines, we can waste some on indexes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timiun Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 In your copying from the Microsoft document, you have also added this sentence: ------- In "Longhorn," files can be stored either in "WinFS" or on NTFS, but "WinFS" is more efficient and effective than NTFS for organizing, searching for, and sharing files. "WinFS" is particularly useful for storing data that needs to be queried or shared by users or applications. Advantages are largely because "WinFS" data is schematized, and the items can be related to each other in more than one way and, therefore, can be searched in multiple ways. You can still use NTFS for storing files that have few or no searching and sharing requirements. In fact, "Longhorn" uses NTFS for all the Windows system files needed for starting up and running the system. ------- That pretty much implies that you can either use WinFS OR NTFS, in as being that WinFS is a filesystem like NTFS And the sentence "In fact, "Longhorn" uses NTFS for all the Windows system files needed for starting up and running the system." doesn't say anything about that WinFS uses the NTFS filesystem. It actually only makes things worse, adding to the thought that Windows itself uses NTFS filesystem, while you can use the WinFS "filesystem" From a Developer or IT Proffesional point of view it is very importent to understand the underlying OS. From a users point of view, i think it is better to "explain" the "normal" users that WinFS is a "filesystem", and thay shouldn't use the NTFS explorer (kinda like MAC's have done where you don't normaly have the concept af a HD) Regards Jesper :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Claude Van Damme Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 WinFS is derived from SQL Server Yukon. When storing files in WinFS, it will use a varbinary(max) FileStream column, which stores the files on a NTFS partition. So yeah, WinFS needs NTFS, and yeah it's kinda a virtual file system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaWShadow Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 If you read this bit. "WinFS" supports efficient indexing of file content, which enables rich querying that is very difficult to achieve with other file systems. For example, in "WinFS" it is easy to search files based on their content and other criteria such as file name, title, author, or date of publication. This would be difficult, if not impossible, in a traditional file system such as NTFS. In addition, "WinFS" still has efficient streaming capabilities?the cornerstone of traditional file systems?to handle large data values. From reading that its like your saying WinFS is a new filesystem. Also you didnt say that WinFS = Windows Future Storage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timiun Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Thanks Jean-Claude Van Damme :) I had a hard time saying that so people could understand it (I always end up with long explainations - and english is not my native language) "Virtual filesystem" that pins it down :) Regards Jesper :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomwarren Veteran Posted October 29, 2003 Author Veteran Share Posted October 29, 2003 Maybe I should have included the MS URL to make it clearer http://msdn.microsoft.com/Longhorn/underst...pic_storage.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Claude Van Damme Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Before someone complains about uselessness: WinFS allows you to sort files into a hierarchy on the fly, by means called dynamic sets. It also allows applications to program the file dialogs how to show the files, independently of their filename. So a MP3 file called weruioghweuoprguer.mp3 may show up in the dialog as e.g. "Groove Armada - Purple Haze (2003)" in the file dialog (by using the metadata). It also offers a lot of other possibilities, including storing non-file data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premgenius Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellBender Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Indexing has been in Linux for ages... locate file -_- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 i just need more ram to run it properly... its taxing my 512, i need a big pagefile now! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mxp Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 nice find Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Indexing has been in Linux for ages...locate file -_- And ? it has been in NT OS's for ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proneax Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 I don't understand how an indexing system will allow you to search the file content any better than currently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Claude Van Damme Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Indexing has been in Linux for ages...locate file -_- I wasn't aware that you could do locate all audio files from 2003 and gerne is house and rating > 3 in Linux. So much for your indexing in Linux. Idiot. :hmmm: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helmers Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Indexing has been in Linux for ages...locate file -_- I wasn't aware that you could do locate all audio files from 2003 and gerne is house and rating > 3 in Linux. So much for your indexing in Linux. Idiot. :hmmm: Yay, bashing is nice. Index has been in GNU/Linux for ages. However, it doesn't serve the same purpose as WinFS will. WinFS doesn't seem all that groundbreaking to me, it seems to be a more useful version of "Indexing Service". Now I can't get this page to load on my machine, but I believe it is much the same as WinFS is said to be, and will probably be available long before Longhorn. Hopefully this new system will make more people use caution when entering data, such as doing the ID3 tags properly, and thus make it easier to organize data for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Claude Van Damme Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Gnome Storage? Yeah that project has been started after there was first talk about WinFS. I wonder why they couldn't get the idea on their own, before MS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonSoull Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Hell, BeOS had something prety close... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyosuken Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 from the pdc build, what we can see, we actually have two possibility : writing data to My music folder wich is pure Ntfs, or to the Music folder in Winfs. Problem is, if your file is already on disk you got two copy.. it's redundant, takes twice as space disk and not that usefull... so for know in this build winfs is not transparently working. But sending files either pics, movies, or songs to it and it's great to use (but quiet slow for now...). My problem, having something stored on winfs, is how to retreive data if they got broken in some way.. not easy on Ntfs already but sure possible... but with winfs, as it seems that the files are somewhat modified during tranfer... Another usefull thing for backup nonetheless is synchonisation, it works pretty well.. so backup may be safer than retrieving broken/lost data ^^... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oblivion Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Cream sure is providing pretty in-depth information on the up coming LH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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