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Windows 8 sales dissapointing


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#226 Shane Nokes

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:21

I think that the decision to make one UI for Tablet and Desktop was the reason Sinofsky had to go.


If that was the case then Julie Larson-Green (the person who was responsible for the User Experience in Windows 8) wouldn't have been put in charge.


#227 scaramonga

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:25

At the end of the day, Microsoft took a very 'very' big gamble with this, they knew that, cards on the table, all chips down etc. - oh yes they did! Factor into that the 'low price' tactics, and sudden change of 'upgrade' methods (yup, I'm sure MS did not let that loophole slip by them unintentionally ;)) and then Sinboy leaving, well, make your mind up from there. I ain't fooled, but I'm just sad that many were.

#228 Azies

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:43

their sales can't be too bad, i just paid $15 for it this morning, and already back on windows 7. So they got $15 for nothing, ha.
Maybe it'll improve over time, i don't know. Was slower on my desktop than 7 was, and the hideous visuals made it even worse. Tried to force myself to like it, but i'm not as good at that as others.
and before others say it, yes im afraid of change.... when the change isn't for the better.


You know I noticed that too? It's slower, very subtle, but it's slower to the point it gets obnoxious and I couldn't deal with it anymore. I too paid $15, and chalked it up as a life lesson, don't buy into a new Windows OS until it's been run through with updates.

#229 Dot Matrix

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:54

Explain why not? There is no other company attempting to put the exact same UI on all of their devices... Apple has the largest footprint in the mobile market and they haven't tried this. If it were the only way then why is Apple still so successful? Why aren't we reading news everyday about the extreme shortage of any and everything Windows 8 related? Really, you're just spouting nonsense. Microsoft is hoping this unified experience will be accepted by the marketplace as it will allow them to leverage the Windows monopoly in the mobile space; something that has consistently failed to date.

The reality is, Windows Phone has been an abysmal failure for Microsoft and they are afraid of the same thing happening to their tablets. Microsoft isn't concerned for consumers, as I've said in the past, they are concerned with developers. If Microsoft is going to win against Google and Apple in the mobile space they need developer passion to be on their side and that is what's been missing. Windows Phone failed to sell well because developers largely ignored the platform. Microsoft wants developers writing apps for Windows devices first and, if possible, nothing else. The monopoly they have on the desktop is played this way. The bulk of software is on Windows and nothing else.

Windows 8 is a mess because it is being used as a pawn in a chess game. "Metro" is 100% the same as it is on the tablet for a very solid reason. Microsoft can dangle the millions of Windows desktop users as carrots in front of developers to mask their poor install base in tablets. They hope the Windows install base will help them ramp up very fast against Apple in the app space and potentially become the leader very quickly. This isn't all that different in the way they played the war against Netscape really.

I just wish we can stop getting these statements from people like you, Dot Matrix, that Windows 8 had to be the way it is. It did not and was done this way for a very straightforward reason. To really pull developers back to the Windows fold in a serious way.

That's why we lack options. If we could opt out of the new Start Screen we would be opting out of Metro if we could opt out of Metro Microsoft would lose the carrot it is danging in front of developers.

My opinion? Microsoft overshot this time. They really didn't bring anything to Metro for desktop users while introducing a slew of inconsistencies and problems for them. In reality, they should have pushed hard with a strong link between Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8 RT (the phone and tablet OS should be the same). They should have added bridges to to desktop where it makes sense and slowly pulled the link closer where it makes sense to do so (like syncing photos as you take them, for instance).

The real gauge of Windows 8 success to watch over the next year is how it affects developer interest. If developers are still primarily focusing on iOS and Android in the mobile space in a year and Windows 8/Metro/Whatever they call it is a distant after thought then they have failed miserably.


I have explained. Multiple times. Also, where is Windows Phone a failure? I don't see that. WP7 is still developed for. WP8 just launched, and I just had a handful of friends dump their old Android and iPhone sets for new WP8 devices. I get my WP8 upgrade in January. The market is nicely setting up Microsoft to support the changes in Windows 8, and carry them over to Windows 9.

The market is pushing for change. The desktop just isn't what it used to be in the consumer space anymore. If Microsoft really wants to expand their horizons, things have to change. If the old Windows is on a sustainable path, then where are the developers? Where are the killer Windows 7 apps? Where are the signs that Microsoft was wrong to change? The only noise your getting is from a few power users who are set in their ways.

I can't tell you how nice it is to finally have some of these apps on my desktop. Windows has been missing a Calendar forever. Now we have one in 8. The Skype app is so much more better in Windows 8, than it is on the desktop. The desktop app is archaic, slow, and buggy. The Chromeless UI of Evernote, and OneNote finally allow me to work without being interrupted or distracted by nonsense.

#230 xWhiplash

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 13:46

I have explained. Multiple times. Also, where is Windows Phone a failure? I don't see that. WP7 is still developed for. WP8 just launched, and I just had a handful of friends dump their old Android and iPhone sets for new WP8 devices. I get my WP8 upgrade in January. The market is nicely setting up Microsoft to support the changes in Windows 8, and carry them over to Windows 9.

The market is pushing for change. The desktop just isn't what it used to be in the consumer space anymore. If Microsoft really wants to expand their horizons, things have to change. If the old Windows is on a sustainable path, then where are the developers? Where are the killer Windows 7 apps? Where are the signs that Microsoft was wrong to change? The only noise your getting is from a few power users who are set in their ways.

I can't tell you how nice it is to finally have some of these apps on my desktop. Windows has been missing a Calendar forever. Now we have one in 8. The Skype app is so much more better in Windows 8, than it is on the desktop. The desktop app is archaic, slow, and buggy. The Chromeless UI of Evernote, and OneNote finally allow me to work without being interrupted or distracted by nonsense.


No killer Windows 7 apps? Where are the Windows 7 developers? WHAT?! So.....no "killer" apps existed until Windows 8 came out? What about the Adobe Suite (PAINT.NET, GIMP, ...)? Microsoft Office (OpenOffice, LibreOffice, ...)? Steam (Impulse, and yes Origin)? FileZilla? Visual Studio? FL Studio (Sony ACID)? And there are many many more. So you want to see 10,000 Word Processing apps in order to say Windows is successful? I am sorry, we already have FAR BETTER ones like OpenOffice, LibreOffice, and Microsoft Office. No offense if you are making a Word processing application. Microsoft HAS...I repeat...HAS to change their entire OS in order to have 10,000 word processing apps so people will think they are successful? Just do a google search and you will see how many other word processing applications there are.

Windows had a calendar for years, just click the time and there it is. Most people do not use a calendar that they can put information/schedule in there. I believe one of the Windows Live Essentials programs had it

Explain to me why the desktop OS cannot, under any conditions, provide options? Everybody would be happy if they developed their own version of Start 8 and bundled it with the OS. Everybody would be happy if they would allow an option to disable these annoying, useless, hidden menus and bars in the desktop environment while you are doing work.

Why couldn't they give us options? Because "computing will never evolve"? Come on, I am talking about the DESKTOP......DESKTOP OS here.

#231 Dot Matrix

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:27

No killer Windows 7 apps? Where are the Windows 7 developers? WHAT?! So.....no "killer" apps existed until Windows 8 came out? What about the Adobe Suite (PAINT.NET, GIMP, ...)? Microsoft Office (OpenOffice, LibreOffice, ...)? Steam (Impulse, and yes Origin)? FileZilla? Visual Studio? FL Studio (Sony ACID)? And there are many many more. So you want to see 10,000 Word Processing apps in order to say Windows is successful? I am sorry, we already have FAR BETTER ones like OpenOffice, LibreOffice, and Microsoft Office. No offense if you are making a Word processing application. Microsoft HAS...I repeat...HAS to change their entire OS in order to have 10,000 word processing apps so people will think they are successful? Just do a google search and you will see how many other word processing applications there are.

Windows had a calendar for years, just click the time and there it is. Most people do not use a calendar that they can put information/schedule in there. I believe one of the Windows Live Essentials programs had it

Explain to me why the desktop OS cannot, under any conditions, provide options? Everybody would be happy if they developed their own version of Start 8 and bundled it with the OS. Everybody would be happy if they would allow an option to disable these annoying, useless, hidden menus and bars in the desktop environment while you are doing work.

Why couldn't they give us options? Because "computing will never evolve"? Come on, I am talking about the DESKTOP......DESKTOP OS here.


No. No. Where are the Windows only apps that take advantage of newer Windows APIs, design features, AERO, and the like? Paint.net, yes, More or less Visual Studio, but these aren't going to keep users. FOSS software on Windows is almost never killer, GIMP, LibreOffice/Open Office are a joke from the last decade.

Where are the killer third party apps? I can list Evernote, Firefox, Chrome, Photoshop, and Paint.Net. Maybe some of those awkward PDF readers too. Wow. Compelling list of developers there...

#232 Javik

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:49

Perhaps you could try designing something that will be device neutral? The desktop-only stuff just doesn't work.


Why would a person with a desktop PC care about their OS being device neutral? Moreover how would leaving the old start menu as an additional option make Windows 8 any less device neutral? It seems like you've really fallen hook, line, and sinker for the "code optimisation" crap though. The couple of megabytes of disk space saving isn't worth the massive drop in usability.

#233 Lord Method Man

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:56

This is getting ridiculous. Different platforms have different UX needs, THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM DIFFERENT.

I can't wait for the new 2014 Honda cars to come out. I hear they're replacing the steering wheel with a set of handlebars in order to make the controls "device neutral" across all of their platforms.

#234 BajiRav

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:22

Why would a person with a desktop PC care about their OS being device neutral? Moreover how would leaving the old start menu as an additional option make Windows 8 any less device neutral? It seems like you've really fallen hook, line, and sinker for the "code optimisation" crap though. The couple of megabytes of disk space saving isn't worth the massive drop in usability.

A good many months after this argument first hit Neowin, I still fail to see the "massive drop" in usability due to removal of the start menu. :/ I guess there is some if you shut down all the time using start menu but otherwise - meh.

#235 Clirion

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:29

Explain why not? There is no other company attempting to put the exact same UI on all of their devices... Apple has the largest footprint in the mobile market and they haven't tried this. If it were the only way then why is Apple still so successful? Why aren't we reading news everyday about the extreme shortage of any and everything Windows 8 related? Really, you're just spouting nonsense. Microsoft is hoping this unified experience will be accepted by the marketplace as it will allow them to leverage the Windows monopoly in the mobile space; something that has consistently failed to date.

The reality is, Windows Phone has been an abysmal failure for Microsoft and they are afraid of the same thing happening to their tablets. Microsoft isn't concerned for consumers, as I've said in the past, they are concerned with developers. If Microsoft is going to win against Google and Apple in the mobile space they need developer passion to be on their side and that is what's been missing. Windows Phone failed to sell well because developers largely ignored the platform. Microsoft wants developers writing apps for Windows devices first and, if possible, nothing else. The monopoly they have on the desktop is played this way. The bulk of software is on Windows and nothing else.

Windows 8 is a mess because it is being used as a pawn in a chess game. "Metro" is 100% the same as it is on the tablet for a very solid reason. Microsoft can dangle the millions of Windows desktop users as carrots in front of developers to mask their poor install base in tablets. They hope the Windows install base will help them ramp up very fast against Apple in the app space and potentially become the leader very quickly. This isn't all that different in the way they played the war against Netscape really.

I just wish we can stop getting these statements from people like you, Dot Matrix, that Windows 8 had to be the way it is. It did not and was done this way for a very straightforward reason. To really pull developers back to the Windows fold in a serious way.

That's why we lack options. If we could opt out of the new Start Screen we would be opting out of Metro if we could opt out of Metro Microsoft would lose the carrot it is danging in front of developers.

My opinion? Microsoft overshot this time. They really didn't bring anything to Metro for desktop users while introducing a slew of inconsistencies and problems for them. In reality, they should have pushed hard with a strong link between Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8 RT (the phone and tablet OS should be the same). They should have added bridges to to desktop where it makes sense and slowly pulled the link closer where it makes sense to do so (like syncing photos as you take them, for instance).

The real gauge of Windows 8 success to watch over the next year is how it affects developer interest. If developers are still primarily focusing on iOS and Android in the mobile space in a year and Windows 8/Metro/Whatever they call it is a distant after thought then they have failed miserably.


Here is the crux of this. Apple is fully set to do this. Hit Launchpad on your Mac's and you will see the shape of things to come for them. There is two differences between what Apple is doing and what Microsoft did. Apple did not make it is only choice in the manner, but it is there.

Now to start stepping down the path a little more with what you are seeing.
Apple moves the A6 (its successors most likely) into the Mac line.
OSX Intruduces GateKeeper (Store Only Purchase is an options right now, not default)
OSX 1X comes out and Launchpad is the main interface.
OSX 1X will have Ruby to run both OSX and IOS based apps.
IOS becomes the dominant app on the MAC and there we go, same interface across Phone, Pad, Computer.

This would have to be a multi year project to get it happen. It will be interesting to see if this is actually what happens, but I can see it.

#236 coresx

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:42

I think that the decision to make one UI for Tablet and Desktop was the reason Sinofsky had to go.


I think the reason was his way or the high way has set Microsoft back to square one. Everything about Windows 8 is 1.0, horrible experience when your used to so many options and expectations of what software can do. Windows Phone needed a clean slate, Windows did not and it is suffering because of it. Completely wrong approach and I think it has set Microsoft back at least 2-3 years and with Apple, Google and others doing well, that is the last thing you want to happen. All those years of software innovation and what consumers expect to get out of basic software and you do this to them. They have basically thrown a lot of work and features in the trash just because...and that is a waste. Might make things sparkle to begin with but when you get down to it, lacking considerably and for what, a tablet experience that isn't very good.

#237 +LogicalApex

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 17:02

Here is the crux of this. Apple is fully set to do this. Hit Launchpad on your Mac's and you will see the shape of things to come for them. There is two differences between what Apple is doing and what Microsoft did. Apple did not make it is only choice in the manner, but it is there.

Now to start stepping down the path a little more with what you are seeing.
Apple moves the A6 (its successors most likely) into the Mac line.
OSX Intruduces GateKeeper (Store Only Purchase is an options right now, not default)
OSX 1X comes out and Launchpad is the main interface.
OSX 1X will have Ruby to run both OSX and IOS based apps.
IOS becomes the dominant app on the MAC and there we go, same interface across Phone, Pad, Computer.

This would have to be a multi year project to get it happen. It will be interesting to see if this is actually what happens, but I can see it.


I can see this happening over time as well. Ideally, the change will be gradual so that the shift can be adapted to slowly by users and the features can be adjusted to offer tangible benefits to desktop users.

I have explained. Multiple times. Also, where is Windows Phone a failure? I don't see that. WP7 is still developed for. WP8 just launched, and I just had a handful of friends dump their old Android and iPhone sets for new WP8 devices. I get my WP8 upgrade in January. The market is nicely setting up Microsoft to support the changes in Windows 8, and carry them over to Windows 9.

The market is pushing for change. The desktop just isn't what it used to be in the consumer space anymore. If Microsoft really wants to expand their horizons, things have to change. If the old Windows is on a sustainable path, then where are the developers? Where are the killer Windows 7 apps? Where are the signs that Microsoft was wrong to change? The only noise your getting is from a few power users who are set in their ways.

I can't tell you how nice it is to finally have some of these apps on my desktop. Windows has been missing a Calendar forever. Now we have one in 8. The Skype app is so much more better in Windows 8, than it is on the desktop. The desktop app is archaic, slow, and buggy. The Chromeless UI of Evernote, and OneNote finally allow me to work without being interrupted or distracted by nonsense.


I know you've internalized everything that Microsoft's PR engine has been releasing lately as gospel so this makes discussion harder...

For starters, Windows Phone success isn't measurable in its sales, it is measured in its pull for developers. The sales of Windows Phone have been better than expected and Windows Phone 8 is selling better than Windows Phone 7 from what i can tell from anecdotal evidence. But the story is the same... Developers don't care. Now some of this is Microsoft's own fault, like not releasing an SDK for Windows Phone 8 in the summer as they promised, but the end result is the same. Developers don't think about Windows first when it comes to mobile and this is what makes Windows Phone a failure.

There are killer apps and developers on the desktop as I'm sure you're aware. I'm not going to waste time debating that fact as if the desktop is as pointless as you are eluding to then Microsoft really goofed up bringing it into the mobile war as a pawn. The fact they are attempting to use it as leverage shows you're far from reality in this regard.

Will mobile and the desktop converge heavily? Absolutely. The problem here is Microsoft has forgotten to adapt their product to the device. Take modern web development for instance... We are in the "responsive web design" period where we are attempting to create websites that naturally adapt to the phone, tablet, and PC using one code base. Microsoft should be following a similar practice with Windows 8. Adapting fully to the desktop space and tablet space naturally and not shoehorning the tablet into the desktop.

I explained why this is done this way though and I think that many users, including myself, think they have overshot. But as I said in my last post, the true test will come next year in seeing if developers are targeting Metro in a serious fashion. If Microsoft can't win developers then everything else doesn't matter. The only hope they can have from a risk perspective is that they don't push the Windows developers off to something else*.

* By something else I mean forcing them to take see the tablet, and mobile, as the most important thing and Microsoft as not important in this arena. If this happens then Microsoft will start losing the Windows development camp, but that is the ultra worst case scenario for them.

#238 PGHammer

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 17:19

Why are you thinking that the Start Screen is touch only? Mouse operated screens don't have to be filled with tiny UI controls, barely visible anymore on today's high resolution screens.


What it's really about is he misses "vanilla".

Why did XP hang around as long as it did, especially in corporate/enterprise planet?

Not because it was exciting, but because it was *predictable*.

If you switched to the "Classic Start Menu", it differed little from either Windows 2000 or even NT 4.

Windows 7 is threatening to become another XP (in the same locaitons) for the same reasons - it's as vanilla an OS as is out there from Microsoft.

No needing to retrain folks. You only have to upgrade applications incrementally. Hardware upgrade requirements are minimal or even none. Cost (software) is also minimal.

Sticking with Windows 7 is the vanilla choice.

#239 MorganX

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 18:06

I know you've internalized everything that Microsoft's PR engine has been releasing lately as gospel so this makes discussion harder...


roflmao, quote of the year right there.

On topic, I don't know if the Metro/Explorer hybrid UI is that bad. The real problem is the things that went backwards, particularly:

- Search: tablet centric and horrific waste of time

- So much Metro stuff got released and just don't work. The Xbox Music stuff and app just doesn't work, it's laughable how bad it is.

- the Windows Phone 8 Sync App works, but doesn't do anything; I can drag and drop files onto the phone from File Explorer.
(The store links don't work, the whole metro app hyperlink issue is affecting many and MS is silent. Once you get it, links in Mail app and any other metro app no longer launch a browser. There are some registry hacks to fix, but it's hit and miss).

- The whole devices and sharing on Charms Bar that is basically for tablets works but is virtually useless on the desktop.

- Just way too many odd bugs. It seems as though MS chose to meet some deadlines as opposed to delivering a polished cutting edge product(s) and ecosystem. I would have rather waited till December for RTM if that meant everything would work and be finished.

- The fact that there is no unified way to sync media from Desktop to Surface and Windows Phone 8 is just mind boggling. No flagship Windows 8 apps is also mind boggling. Office 2013 is great but a win32 app.

The best part of Windows 8, the Desktop Environment and how well win32 apps run. i.e. Windows 7 R2 would have sufficed for that.

I want Windows 8 and the ecosystem to succeed. I think it has great potential, but it shouldn't have been released in alpha stage. And pulling out core features and making the apps in the store does not excuse releasing them in less than fully functioning condition.

Just to put this in perspective, to actually get music and video on my Lumia 920 without pulling my hair out, I had to use Windows Media Player classic in Windows 8 Desktop environment. Nothing else "just worked". I have Windows 8, Surface RT, and Lumia 920. I'm refusing to do registry hacks to fix things and odd workarounds, etc. I'm just being a consumer who wants to use all this cool new stuff, and right now, it's a disaster, IMO. Without Media Player, I still can't manage my music library on my Surface. I'll go back to iPad before I do that much ridiculous work to create a playlist.

Microsoft is like the Dallas Cowboys right now. They have plenty of money and resources, great campus (the dome), well paid staff, on paper, they should be tearing through the league especially given their weak schedule. But they just always find a way to lose.

I just don't see Microsoft making major inroads in the phone or tablet market like this. They have the hardware and desktop dominance to leverage, but they just don't seem to have the internal leadership to pull it off. They see numbers and not consumers (real people).

If this is a result of internal management, or lack thereof, Ballmer has to take the blame. Allowing the internal culture to deteriorate to the point of not being able to produce products that work well together and this point in the game ... damn shame.

How can a company the size of Microsoft release so much stuff not working right in 2012? I just can't even grasp how jacked up the internal corporate culture and hierarchy has to be for this to happen.

Sticking with Windows 7 is the vanilla choice.


Still the most popular flavor in America. Plain old reliable predictable vanilla.

#240 Growled

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 00:46

Still the most popular flavor in America. Plain old reliable predictable vanilla.


And always will be, especially in the enterprise market.