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Microsoft begs Web devs not to make WebKit the new IE6


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#91 spudtrooper

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 17:46

It's irrelevant? Having everyone access to the engine's base and being able to build upon it, improve it, independent from any one company is irrelevant to you?

Yeah, please. You clearly don't know what you are talking about nor you have an idea of how open source works.



It matters because Microsoft can follow W3C standards now and when it gets 80% of marketshare again they can do the same thing they did with IE6 and nobody can do anything about it. You don't see how that's a possibility?

With webkit that can't happen because it is now owned, nor developed exclusively by a single company. How can you people not get that.


The reason IE is a slower lifecycle is MS supports its corporate apps with such longevity so they can regain their investments. When you spend 10 million dollars to implement a new ERP system, you can give a rats ass about the latest and greatest CSS gimmick, what you want is a browser that works and the best thing to make sure that it works and is supported perpetually is that it adheres to the standards approved by the standardization body. Being able to modify the engine/change things and hack for the sake of hacking does NOTHING to improve the industry, in fact it greatly detracts from the ability to build manageable apps.

also, you seem to like the sound of your own voice. Maybe if you scream it enough people will believe it? lol


#92 Athernar

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 17:49

You mean like Microsoft did for nearly a decade? pot, kettle, black


If Microsoft were trying to act like they're the saviours of web standards you'd maybe have a point. But since all they're doing is trying to influence developers to write standards-compliant code that benefits everyone, rather than proprietary Webkit-specific code that only benefits Apple and Google, you have no point.

And on top of that, you're really starting to look petty. Microsoft may be retarded, but they're not always wrong.

#93 jakem1

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 17:52

Pretty rich coming from a guy claiming that I "knew nothing" and then when proven to be wrong went off at an alternate tangent rather than admitting so.


You don't know what you're talking about which is why you have to rely on insults. You constantly undermine your own arguments with your nonsensical personal attacks and it's not worth discussing anything with you if you can't post sensible comments.

#94 nub

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:02

Ignorant IE Hating. Internet Explorer is in the right here and is following the spec. You harp on and on about spec compliance, yet when it comes to this it doesn't matter? This is not a deficiency in IE that Microsoft is asking people to fix. This is IE following the spec to the letter and people not using proper code. Since people are never going to get their heads out of there asses, IE should just start parsing -webkit prefixed CSS like opera. Then we can all pretend we're webkit just like we all pretend we're netscape.

http://webaim.org/bl...string-history/

Market share means nothing (or should anyways).

Vendor specific prefixes are a bad a idea and were a bad idea and now we're seeing the result of it. Vendor specific prefixes should have never been implemented in any version of the browser designed for the average user. It causes this horrible mess of a situation.

#95 Crimson Rain

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:16

based on what? From what I see, and numbers say it all, they are following the standards the closest (btw Maxthon is webkit as well). IE10 is dead last.


Posted Image

Sorry to quote this again but I had to point out this example of 448 score chrome fail: http://newilk.com/te...eholder_styling
If this is not enough to shut you up, you either have logic issues or are one of the best example of fanboi.

PS: Assuming I'm not wrong, this is the specific relevant test in html5test.com : http://html5test.com...laceholder.html
As you can see, most browsers get full points in this test while only IE10 and Firefox support it (almost) properly.
Out of your 448 point chrome (or webkit), there is huge percentage of points awarded for saying "yes, I can cook 5-star Bibimbap" while what it cooks may be worse than eating trash from garbage dump.

So for the last time, do not quote html5test again. It is a great site for a quick overview. But it is not solid, often misleading and tests **** loads of things that are not part of HTML5 or not even standards.

By the way, Chrome is a great browser. So is IE10 and Firefox. I personally do not like firefox except firebug (<3).

#96 Silver47

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 19:05

I find this entire thread hilarious.

I don't think anyone on this site will agree that IE6 was the most awesome browser of all time. Hell I was using FireFox to escape it back when I was on XP. Microsoft even want it to die for Christ's sake, and that's saying something.

So long story short, IE6 shall be regarded as the dark ages of the internet from which FF and Opera inspired a renaissance.

Then we got IE7. At first I ignored it and carried on using FF in Vista, until I had to do a reinstall and didn't bother using it and carried on used IE7 as it had tabbed browsing and well, worked. Still wasn't perfect but was a step in the right direction at least for Microsoft standards wise can we not all agree?

Next up IE8. Does anyone remember using the IE8 beta's and watching all the sites fall over unless it was in compatibility mode? Again was Microsoft not trying to make a better standards compatible browser? Still wasn't quite there though was it, and performance needed a swift kick in the arse, again I think we can all agree on that?

Close, but no cigar.

Then we had IE9 that showed the world that Microsoft was serious about the web again. Supporting part of HTML5 and CSS3 with a great performance boost as well. And now, a year and half later we now have IE10. If anything I think everyone should be supporting Microsoft's catch up over the past few years.

But the best thing I find hilarious is the bashing that IE isn't HTML5 standard compatible? Hate to point this out, bit of a small detail but HTML5 ISN'T A FREAKING RATIFIED STANDARD YET! Once W3C has ratified it and said "Hey everyone, this is what you should be doing" and IE(insert version number at the time) isn't standards compatible, then yes go ahead, bash away.

No really I won't stop you, hell I'll join in with you. Microsoft have time to do it, they have till 2014 till the recommendation is out so they don't have an excuse. I don't think you'll find many people defending them for being late.

Hell I think we should start making bets when the IE11 preview will come out. I give it 1 month after IE10 for Win7 comes out.

#97 Boz

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:07

IE across the board sucks and from IE6 to IE9 has broken the web over and over again.. and then Microsoft starts coming out and complaining how everyone is using webkit (an open source browser engine that is absolutely KICK ASS) and because they are adding new features (who btw, will most likely be adopted by WHATWG and W3C eventually).

Wtf are we talking about.. and yes.. IE 10 sucks compared to every other browser. Just because it's a bit more compliant with HTML5 as a standard still doesn't make it great.. it makes it suck less.

#98 HawkMan

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:23

IE across the board sucks and from IE6 to IE9 has broken the web over and over again.. and then Microsoft starts coming out and complaining how everyone is using webkit (an open source browser engine that is absolutely KICK ASS) and because they are adding new features (who btw, will most likely be adopted by WHATWG and W3C eventually).

Wtf are we talking about.. and yes.. IE 10 sucks compared to every other browser. Just because it's a bit more compliant with HTML5 as a standard still doesn't make it great.. it makes it suck less.


I see you're ignoring all the posts you can't refute and argue with again, and just sprouting bull crap about how awesome Google and Webkit is again.
*yawn*

#99 Boz

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:25

I see you're ignoring all the posts you can't refute and argue with again, and just sprouting bull crap about how awesome Google and Webkit is again.
*yawn*


You and others didn't refute anything but just whine and defend garbage that Microsoft is and was in regards to IE browsers. The reason web is still having trouble moving forward is Microsoft and IE and nobody else. But that goes over your head.

The point of Microsoft whining is not about HTML5 and standards.. it's about them losing dominance and being completely irrelevant on mobile. And that's completely their fault and is completely disingenuous (but what else do you expect form that company who gave us IE6) to come out and whine how open source engines are introducing new features that IE can't support. Hey, guess what, the world doesn't care about Microsoft anymore. The world has moved on. We build stuff for webkit, gecko because stuff just works and for the past years we got stuck with IE garbage and having to write hacks and tons of other crap because of Microsoft (and not just IE6.. IE7, IE8, IE9.. they ALL suck). The web would be a better place without them. And nobody cares about IE10. Because Microsoft is unreliable Today it might be somewhat following HTML5 standard, but tomorrow Microsoft will bring more of the proprietary extensions (that are already happening btw with WinRT) and they will break everything again so they can try to hijack the web again towards their own interests.

So they are a joke of the developer world. Every serious web developer LOATHES Microsoft and IE.. and laughs their ass off at Microsoft telling anyone anything about compatibility and standards, especially comparing open source engines and others to their proprietary IE6. The biggest irony of all.

#100 HawkMan

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:29

Again, the standards organizations MADE a standard for touch controls that all browsers decided to follow. Google decided to make their own incompatible and non compliant and in fact a worse implementation. of touch controls and not implement the standard one.

you keep ignoring this little fact, the standard already existed, Google's method isn't going to be a standard, they already had a standard, a better standard.

And we're not defending MS, we're arguing to Google shouldn't make their own standards when there are already standards for it.

#101 -Razorfold

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:30

IE across the board sucks and from IE6 to IE9 has broken the web over and over again.. and then Microsoft starts coming out and complaining how everyone is using webkit (an open source browser engine that is absolutely KICK ASS) and because they are adding new features (who btw, will most likely be adopted by WHATWG and W3C eventually).

Wtf are we talking about.. and yes.. IE 10 sucks compared to every other browser. Just because it's a bit more compliant with HTML5 as a standard still doesn't make it great.. it makes it suck less.

Amazing how using webkit only prefixes breaks the web too right?

According to your logic (again) IE6 had 90%+ of the browser marketshare so everyone should have just followed Microsoft's broken standards because you know they "eventually" would have made it in.

The Microsoft "sponsored" HTML5 test that you keep claiming is BS comes DIRECTLY from the W3C, you know the people who are responsible for maintaining the specification. What are you going to claim next Microsoft pays off the W3C?

You and others didn't refute anything but just whine and defend garbage that Microsoft is and was in regards to IE browsers. The reason web is still have trouble moving forward is Microsoft and IE and nobody else.

You should learn to read. Microsoft is asking people to move the web forward by NOT using browser prefixes.

The reason why IE6 was so terrible was because Microsoft used IE only prefixes and refused to follow set standards, by using webkit only prefixes you're just repeating the same mistakes MS made.

It's about time for you to shut up because yet again you just proved that according to you Microsoft can do no right and Google can do no wrong. It's sad because if this was a post about how Apple was pushing the web forward with HTML5 and dropping proprietary extensions you'll be all up in arms and start claiming that HTML5 is terrible and how flash is the savior of the internet. But since supporting HTML5 makes Google look good in this topic (according to you anyways), you're all for it.

Microsoft isn't asking people to use IE, they aren't asking people to not use Webkit. They're asking people to follow standards. Too bad you're too much of a fanboy to realize that.

#102 Crimson Rain

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:39

This Boz kid only sees what he wants to see. Hilarious.

#103 Boz

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:42

Microsoft isn't asking people to use IE, they aren't asking people to not use Webkit.


Duh.. so they will use IE.. LOL..

#104 Javik

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:46

You don't know what you're talking about which is why you have to rely on insults. You constantly undermine your own arguments with your nonsensical personal attacks and it's not worth discussing anything with you if you can't post sensible comments.


That's ridiculous. Ignoring the fact that webkit has a tiny share of the desktop market and the mobile market isn't big enough yet to matter, what you're advocating is no different to the situation that existed when IE6 owned the market. The only standards that matter are the ones agreed by W3C and other bodies and it's up to browsers to maintain compatibility.


I'll just let this assertion that the rendering engine of choice for the number 1 web browser for the desktop "has a tiny share" speak for itself :laugh:

#105 HawkMan

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:50

Duh.. so they will use IE.. LOL..

I sugest you re-read what you quoted again, and this time ACTUALLY read it.

I'll just let this assertion that the rendering engine of choice for the number 1 web browser for the desktop "has a tiny share" speak for itself :laugh:


The number one what ? http://www.netmarket...d=0&qpcustomd=0