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Microsoft begs Web devs not to make WebKit the new IE6


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#106 Max Norris

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:51

I sugest you re-read what you quoted again, and this time ACTUALLY read it.

It's gone from him trying to defend a "point" and completely ignoring what's right in front of him to "screw standards derp Webkit". You're wasting your time.


#107 Javik

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:55

The number one what ? http://www.netmarket...d=0&qpcustomd=0


Don't know where they get their stats from because every other site I look at puts Chrome ahead of them

http://www.w3schools...wsers_stats.asp

http://gs.statcounter.com/

#108 duddit2

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:01

Yeah, the only difference is that Webkit is open while IE was and still is proprietary. It's a night and day difference. Not to mention that browsers who use Webkit (Safari, Chrome) are updated transparently to the user making the very latest version immediately adopted at 90% marketshare.

It's not even beginning to compare to IE6 and never will.

IE10 will continue to linger just like everything microsoft and IE long after IE 11 is out and this fragmentation is the worst thing that has caused the web the biggest damage in progressing forward.


Like it or not, MS has the corporate world to think about where controlling versions is paramount to the IT staff. Having IE simply update transparently like Chrome or FF would be a massive no. All updates have to be approved and having WSUS manage windows updates is how things work. It maybe an idea to have a setting that can be managed via group policy (and is default on domain joined machines) which stops transparent updating and all other machines (home users etc.) do get the latest versions, but MS also has to deal with the EU and browser ballot (which is just mind numbingly annoying now - EU, we want a browser ballot choice, I don't want it).

#109 ViperAFK

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:02

Again, the standards organizations MADE a standard for touch controls that all browsers decided to follow. Google decided to make their own incompatible and non compliant and in fact a worse implementation. of touch controls and not implement the standard one.

you keep ignoring this little fact, the standard already existed, Google's method isn't going to be a standard, they already had a standard, a better standard.

And we're not defending MS, we're arguing to Google shouldn't make their own standards when there are already standards for it.


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#110 Boz

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:04

Don't know where they get their stats from because every other site I look at puts Chrome ahead of them

http://www.w3schools...wsers_stats.asp

http://gs.statcounter.com/


And btw, that's not IE10.. that's IE all versions in existence combined.

One of the major problems why other browsers and Webkit especially are all better than IE is the speed of updates.

For example.. Chrome and Firefox and pretty much every major browsers today (minus IE) updates the browser automatically and transparently. This means that over 90% of the users will always have the latest version of the browser at any time. They don't have to worry about updates.. Chrome and Firefox, upgrade themselves transparently and next time you click that browser icon to start it you will be running the latest version.

This is HUGE for moving the web forward as all of these browsers innovate and add features much faster than Microsoft and that's one of the biggest reasons why IE will always break the web. Next year, every webkit and other browsers will support the very latest HTML5 spec as they are officially added and IE users will have to wait for Microsoft to release IE11 and in the meantime you will have a certain amount of people still using IE 10. This si why Microsoft was and will be toxic for moving the web forward.. aside from their tendency to completely tie IE and everything they do to their own business interests and platform.

Like it or not, MS has the corporate world to think about where controlling versions is paramount to the IT staff.


Who cares? I don't care if they have corporate world to think about.. They have ruined the web and because of their approach they are unable to quickly upgrade and innovate. Who's fault is that? This is why they are being steamrolled by everyone. Nobody is going to wait for them anymore.

Hopefully more and more enterprises switch to webkit powered browsers and dump IE once and for all, especially now when they are adopting iOS and Android tablets and other stuff across Fortune 500 companies.

#111 +Brando212

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:05

And btw, that's not IE10.. that's IE all versions in existence combined.

One of the major problems why other browsers and Webkit especially are all better than IE is the speed of updates.

For example.. Chrome and Firefox and pretty much every major browsers today (minus IE) updates the browser automatically and transparently. This means that over 90% of the users will always have the latest version of the browser at any time. They don't have to worry about updates.. Chrome and Firefox, upgrade themselves transparently and next time you click that browser icon to start it you will be running the latest version.

This is HUGE for moving the web forward as all of these browsers innovate and add features much faster than Microsoft and that's one of the biggest reasons why IE will always break the web. Next year, every webkit and other browsers will support the very latest HTML5 spec as they are officially added and IE users will have to wait for Microsoft to release IE11 and in the meantime you will have a certain amount of people still using IE 10. This si why Microsoft was always toxic for the web.. aside from their tendency to completely tie IE and everything they do to their own business interests.


way to completely miss (or ignore) the post 2 above yours

Like it or not, MS has the corporate world to think about where controlling versions is paramount to the IT staff. Having IE simply update transparently like Chrome or FF would be a massive no. All updates have to be approved and having WSUS manage windows updates is how things work. It maybe an idea to have a setting that can be managed via group policy (and is default on domain joined machines) which stops transparent updating and all other machines (home users etc.) do get the latest versions, but MS also has to deal with the EU and browser ballot (which is just mind numbingly annoying now - EU, we want a browser ballot choice, I don't want it).



#112 rfirth

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:26

For example.. Chrome and Firefox and pretty much every major browsers today (minus IE) updates the browser automatically and transparently. This means that over 90% of the users will always have the latest version of the browser at any time. They don't have to worry about updates.. Chrome and Firefox, upgrade themselves transparently and next time you click that browser icon to start it you will be running the latest version.


Starting with IE10, IE updates the browser automatically:

Posted Image

You really need to stop being a hypocrite and recognize that proprietary extensions are bad for the web... they were bad when IE6 ruled, and they are bad today. And as proponents of webkit have argued before, competition drives innovation... so why advocate for the elimination of all competing rendering engines like you have?

And your assertion that webkit is the standard because it has the most marketshare is silly and majorly hypocritical. Standards bodies make standards, not the browser with the largest marketshare.

It's amazing how the tables have turned.

#113 -Razorfold

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:29

Hopefully more and more enterprises switch to webkit powered browsers and dump IE once and for all, especially now when they are adopting iOS and Android tablets and other stuff across Fortune 500 companies.

And the first thing those corporations will do (if they switch) is disable auto-update. If you think corporations are going to allow silent auto-updating you're insane.

So you're going to be stuck with the same problem, just with a different browser.

And MS does update the browser in between major versions, you just don't know about it unless you're looking at WU and the full version string. Granted its not as frequent as chrome but starting with 10 it will be.

#114 HawkMan

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:40

And btw, that's not IE10.. that's IE all versions in existence combined.

One of the major problems why other browsers and Webkit especially are all better than IE is the speed of updates.

For example.. Chrome and Firefox and pretty much every major browsers today (minus IE) updates the browser automatically and transparently. This means that over 90% of the users will always have the latest version of the browser at any time. They don't have to worry about updates.. Chrome and Firefox, upgrade themselves transparently and next time you click that browser icon to start it you will be running the latest version.

This is HUGE for moving the web forward as all of these browsers innovate and add features much faster than Microsoft and that's one of the biggest reasons why IE will always break the web. Next year, every webkit and other browsers will support the very latest HTML5 spec as they are officially added and IE users will have to wait for Microsoft to release IE11 and in the meantime you will have a certain amount of people still using IE 10. This si why Microsoft was and will be toxic for moving the web forward.. aside from their tendency to completely tie IE and everything they do to their own business interests and platform.



Who cares? I don't care if they have corporate world to think about.. They have ruined the web and because of their approach they are unable to quickly upgrade and innovate. Who's fault is that? This is why they are being steamrolled by everyone. Nobody is going to wait for them anymore.

Hopefully more and more enterprises switch to webkit powered browsers and dump IE once and for all, especially now when they are adopting iOS and Android tablets and other stuff across Fortune 500 companies.


Ignored the important stuff again huh, and the fact you didn't read you last quote

#115 coth

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:42

Starting with IE10, IE updates the browser automatically:


Yet update process is drastically outdated. Still long and requires reboot...

#116 -Razorfold

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:46

Yet update process is drastically outdated. Still long and requires reboot...

Afaik there haven't been any updates to IE10 yet, so how do you know that?

#117 rfirth

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 22:04

Yet update process is drastically outdated. Still long and requires reboot...


What gave you that idea? Says who?

#118 MorganX

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 22:25

Yeah, the only difference is that Webkit is open while IE was and still is proprietary. It's a night and day difference. Not to mention that browsers who use Webkit (Safari, Chrome) are updated transparently to the user making the very latest version immediately adopted at 90% marketshare.

It's not even beginning to compare to IE6 and never will.

IE10 will continue to linger just like everything microsoft and IE long after IE 11 is out and this fragmentation is the worst thing that has caused the web the biggest damage in progressing forward.

That which has market dominance is the de facto standard. Or that which is ratified by a Standards organization. Which is Webkit? It's open, open does not equal standard.

If you prefer it, fine. Just don't become another liar. It is either a standard, or it is not. Whether or not it's open source (which I generally find to be inferior and less secure, my personal opinion and experience) is irrelevant to whether or not it is a standard unless it has market dominance making it the de facto standard.

#119 Athernar

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 23:30

I think the fact there are idiots still defending this after being clearly told this is about standards and not Microsoft, clearly illustrates that Webkit is already far worse than IE6 ever was.

Time to start notifying Webkit users that their browsers are enemies of the open web.

#120 coth

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 00:06

Afaik there haven't been any updates to IE10 yet, so how do you know that?

But there is IE10 RC itself, which shows installation procedure very well. It didn't change.



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