Jump to content

98 posts in this topic

Posted

[img]http://timenerdworld.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/wpid-photo-nov-19-2012-1236-am.jpg[/img]
[size=3][center][/size][i][size=3]In 1995, consumers in Sydney, Australia go gaga for Windows 95, Microsoft's most rapturously-received upgrade of all time[/center][/size][/i]

On Friday, I responded to Paul Thurrott's [url="http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/windows-8-sales-well-below-projections-plenty-blame-go-around"]report[/url] that the first few weeks of Windows 8 sales have been disappointing by saying that [url="http://techland.time.com/2012/11/17/its-too-early-to-judge-early-windows-8-sales/"]Windows 8 is a long bet[/url]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I think they made too big a change too fast. People don't like change to begin with. Take it slow and easy. Use Metro in tablets and give desktop users a choice of what to run. The way it stands I don't see many businesses rushing out to try Windows 8. The retraining costs would be a nightmare. Apparently not many consumers want it either.

I can't tell you the number of people I see looking at Windows 8 in places like Best Buy, shaking their heads, and walking away.
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

It is a really dumb move by MS not to give users the choice to turn off the metro garbage and retain the start menu. I don't buy the BS that the start menu was 'legacy code full of security risks'... They'll still have to patch anything that comes up in 7 until what is it? 2020?.
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='trek' timestamp='1353389921' post='595335284']
It is a really dumb move by MS not to give users the choice to turn off the metro garbage and retain the start menu. I don't buy the BS that the start menu was 'legacy code full of security risks'... They'll still have to patch anything that comes up in 7 until what is it? 2020?.
[/quote]

Just out of curiosity are you willfully mixing things up, or just getting it wrong by accident? I'm asking this as an honest question, not as an attempt to be a pain.

To clarify, the start menu was removed due to a lot of the changes in the OS that led to it not working properly.

Gadgets were removed for security reasons...and you've sort of mismashed the 2 together...which is why I ask the initial question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Wasn't a really early leak posted here in neowin regarding leaked screenshots about what the windows 8 builds were?
I remember that in one of those early builds you could have a classic shell and the ability to enable/disable metro, it was a while ago, granted, but surely I'm not the only one that remembered that.
At the risk of saying something guaranteed to annoy some people, why the hell didn't they leave that option in?
(Also they could have left Missile Command in... like from Windows 3.11)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353390286' post='595335296']
To clarify, the start menu was removed due to a lot of the changes in the OS that led to it not working properly.
[/quote]

[size=5]can you please stop posting that answer [/size]

[size=6]if third party software can come up with something like the start menu I find it hard to belive that microsoft who has the source code and is a multibillion dollar company can't come up with a solution[/size].

the simple truth is that not many people were buying their windows phone, because on the phone side people have more choices and they chose not to buy a windows phone and go with android as market-share shows and after windows phone 7 being on the market for 2 years.
so they are trying to [size=5]force[/size] the interface in the desktop because they know people won't have the same [size=5]viable[/size] choices on the desktop side and be stuck with it and I say stuck because most people won't know that they can downgrade when they buy a new PC.
So they are hoping that would familiarize "[size=5]force[/size]" people into the interface so they start investing in apps and people would be "well i have all this apps i guess i'm going to purchase windows phone next" effectively using its monopoly to it's advantage
10 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353390286' post='595335296']
..
To clarify, the start menu was removed due to a lot of the changes in the OS that led to it not working properly.

..
[/quote]

Even stoned, I can say thats a ridiculous argument.
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353390286' post='595335296']
To clarify, the start menu was removed due to a lot of the changes in the OS that led to it not working properly.
[/quote]

In what way did it not work properly? Not only are there third party apps like Start8 and Classic Shell where a classic style start menu does work, someone made a patch that let's Windows 8 use the explorer shell from Windows 7 and the genuine classic start menu works just fine. Whatever Microsoft's reasons were for removing the start menu, it not working properly was most certainly not one of them.
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Good lord, not another Windows 8 thread to argue about the same damn things.
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Look for the post from BrandonLive. He works on that team and already gave a very clear answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I don't disagree with Microsoft tried/is trying to do. But to not give users the [u]choice[/u] is what really stinks. How hard is it to provide an option to "go classic"? We've had it for years in one form or another, why take it away?

For the people praising Windows 8 - I didn't say make it the default. Just give us the option, and i'm not talking Windows 7 or 3rd party programs...

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353390286' post='595335296']
To clarify, the start menu was removed due to a lot of the changes in the OS that led to it not working properly.

Gadgets were removed for security reasons...and you've sort of mismashed the 2 together...which is why I ask the initial question.
[/quote]
I can't say I agree with either decision, or reason behind them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353397808' post='595335416']
Look for the post from BrandonLive. He works on that team and already gave a very clear answer.
[/quote]

It's clearly an excuse to hide the real reason for removing it.

As others have said; other companies have recreated the start menu easily.
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Finally the press is doing well what it should do, express the non conformity of millions of users let aside with this version of windows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Hardcore Til I Die' timestamp='1353398237' post='595335428']


It's clearly an excuse to hide the real reason for removing it.

As others have said; other companies have recreated the start menu easily.
[/quote]

Indeed. Since you're apparently connected and a SME on that matter you won't mind posting proof then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Yeah, I too think this is tied into tablet and phone sales. They forgot one little item, no one wants their phones.
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353403278' post='595335528']
Indeed. Since you're apparently connected and a SME on that matter you won't mind posting proof then.
[/quote]

With all due respect Shane, give it a rest. It might have been cool at some point or another to constantly remind people of where you [i]worked[/i], but it's since become repetitive and at times unpleasant.

There are two sides to all of this. Microsoft made changes that they feel were necessary due to what they can see internally (Something you repeatedly remind us you're privy to, at least to some degree) and the view customers have where things were changed "just cause" for all intents and purposes. Maybe sometimes you need to step back and discuss some of these things as a consumer, which is what everyone else around here is. Your position doesn't need to change (everyone is entitled to their own opinion), but you might want to rethink the way you bring it across. The "I worked for Microsoft and know what I'm talking about, you're all wrong" attitude that you exude is really starting to get old. You'd probably find that there are few who really actually care who you may or may not have worked for in the past or present. Has anyone asked you to prove you know better than anyone else around here (aka. Prove you worked where you say you worked)? Anyone can say all sorts of things on the Internet.
9 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

None of the options above achieve the direction Microsoft is heading, so saying these were alternatives is not a solution.

* A unified user experience across a range of devices
* A common UI across those devices
* An operating system capable of interacting effective with new types of user input; motion, touch, kinect, voice etc
* Common design language to leverage applications/games across the ecosystem.

This is part of a long term strategy and you will hear more of this over the next couple of years from MS 'convergence', their aim is to create a unified experience across desktop, tablet, phone, xbox.

This was hardly revolutionary, when MS scrapped Longhorn their design philosophy became evolution over revolution. Windows 7 did not and does not have a UI conducive to those new user inputs (even the old ones like touch that have been around for years!) nor the new UI direction, therefore Windows 8 is virtually Win7 with those new elements starting to appear. If they gave you a choice to disable those elements then when Windows 9 comes around and goes further down the path it would be even more of a shock.

Like any long-term plan sometimes theres short-term pain, and this pain is for desktop users as there are obvious tablet elements that serve a reduced purpose without a touch or other based interface. However over the next version etc that convergence will come together and it won't be so much of an issue.

Again just to recap the headlines; MS thinks ahead more than one OS at a time, convergence, unified experience, start menu aint coming back.
5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353390286' post='595335296']
To clarify, the start menu was removed due to a lot of the changes in the OS that led to it not working properly.
[/quote]

And Comcast put a cap on their internet service because people are sucking all the bandwidth... Given enough words you can cleverly word anything as a mandatory choice. PR people make a living of making everything in our world sound mutually exclusive and as if there were no other choice. The reality is with software you can do anything when the code is already written. It cost Microsoft more engineering effort to [i]remove[/i] the Start Menu then it did to leave it in place. Especially since the code for the Start Menu was almost 20 years of solid code...

The reality is Microsoft removed the Start Menu for business reasons. I'm getting sick of the ... words for covering it up. It was a business decision not a technical one. Just like the decision to not give existing WP devices an upgrade to 8. It was a business decision not a technical one.

You are always quick to quip up on the forum that[url="http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1120128-windows-8-sales-dissapointing/page__view__findpost__p__595329646"] you're quite a bit more intelligent than most[/url]. If this is the case stop regurgitating illogical drivel and start acting how you claim. Give me the solid, technical, reasons why the Start Menu had to be removed because it no longer could possibly work...

I'm serious, I want solid reasons. It took more work to remove the Start Menu code and refactor the code that depends on it and to ensure compatibility with existing software than it did to leave it alone. I don't want anymore drivel.
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I think one of the main issues with windows 8 is is not much the removal of the start menu but the start button. The fact that most major components of the OS are hidden from the user until you touch it with your mouse is just stupid. I say at the very least bring the button back so it stays in the bottom left and doesn't disappear when your mouse isn't on it.

You would be surprised...(or probably not) ..but every conversation I have with customers about windows 8 they all ask me if it's any good if you don't have a touch screen, or they think you need a touch screen to use it. That is the consensus of the general public / average user.... can you blame them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Growled' timestamp='1353463564' post='595338124']
Yeah, I too think this is tied into tablet and phone sales. They forgot one little item, no one wants their phones.
[/quote]

Phone sales are actually picking up...even percentage wise...not just total number of units.

Also this move? Planned for years...

Windows Phone wasn't even yet an actual project when they had already figured out the direction for 8. They were still working on 'Photon'...sorry to burst that theory...even though it's a popular one. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353465597' post='595338178']
Phone sales are actually picking up...even percentage wise...not just total number of units.

Also this move? Planned for years...

Windows Phone wasn't even yet an actual project when they had already figured out the direction for 8. They were will working on 'Photon'...sorry to burst that theory...even though it's a popular one. ;)
[/quote]nice selective replying there!
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='nekkidtruth' timestamp='1353464564' post='595338146']
With all due respect Shane, give it a rest. It might have been cool at some point or another to constantly remind people of where you [i]worked[/i], but it's since become repetitive and at times unpleasant.

There are two sides to all of this. Microsoft made changes that they feel were necessary due to what they can see internally (Something you repeatedly remind us you're privy to, at least to some degree) and the view customers have where things were changed "just cause" for all intents and purposes. Maybe sometimes you need to step back and discuss some of these things as a consumer, which is what everyone else around here is. Your position doesn't need to change (everyone is entitled to their own opinion), but you might want to rethink the way you bring it across. The "I worked for Microsoft and know what I'm talking about, you're all wrong" attitude that you exude is really starting to get old. You'd probably find that there are few who really actually care who you may or may not have worked for in the past or present. Has anyone asked you to prove you know better than anyone else around here (aka. Prove you worked where you say you worked)? Anyone can say all sorts of things on the Internet.
[/quote]

It's not about cool. It's about pointing out that there are things that I do happen to know about. I don't care if anyone thinks I'm cool.

If that were a consideration I would spend my days kissing ass. Sorry not gonna happen. ;)

As regards that...some of the staff know precisely where I've worked. There are some projects I've worked on that I can't talk about...in fact most of them are things I can't even really comment on. Probably the only safe project I can talk about or point to (and the one I had the most fun on) was Fable II. If you happen to own the game you can pop in the disc. I'm in the credits...several minutes in. :p

The other teams I've worked on have all been related to Xbox, Zune, & Windows Phone. The nature of the work is such that it's not really something I can talk about...due to specific agreements signed as part of that work.

[quote name='Guth' timestamp='1353466079' post='595338196']
]nice selective replying there!
[/quote]

Considering that I'm replying to multiple folks via social media, here on the forums, talking to my fiancee, and working on a side project all while doing this you have to learn patience, and probably some manners.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='nekkidtruth' timestamp='1353464564' post='595338146']
With all due respect Shane, give it a rest. It might have been cool at some point or another to constantly remind people of where you [i]worked[/i], but it's since become repetitive and at times unpleasant.

[/quote]

Tedious ain't it?
5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353466172' post='595338198']
It's not about cool. It's about pointing out that there are things that I do happen to know about. I don't care if anyone thinks I'm cool.[/quote]

Then why do you feel you need to repeat it nearly every single post? Heck, I've seen you post it in replies where it was completely irrelevant.

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353466172' post='595338198']If that were a consideration I would spend my days kissing ass. Sorry not gonna happen. ;)[/quote]

Except you kiss Microsoft's ass everyday at least twice a day in one of your responses?

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353466172' post='595338198']As regards that...some of the staff know precisely where I've worked. There are some projects I've worked on that I can't talk about...in fact most of them are things I can't even really comment on. Probably the only safe project I can talk about or point to (and the one I had the most fun on) was Fable II. If you happen to own the game you can pop in the disc. I'm in the credits...several minutes in. :p[/quote]

Why would anyone care whether the staff around here know where you may or may not have worked? This is the arrogance I'm referring to. From what I've seen, nobody actually cares. It's not really significant. I mean, it's absolutely helpful once in a while to say "Hey! That's not how it actually works guys, it's like this." However, you're attitude is more of a "You're wrong. I worked for Microsoft. I know better." which doesn't really depict you as the person you like to describe yourself as around here.

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353466172' post='595338198']The other teams I've worked on have all been related to Xbox, Zune, & Windows Phone. The nature of the work is such that it's not really something I can talk about...due to specific agreements signed as part of that work.[/quote]

Ok...?

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353466172' post='595338198']Considering that I'm replying to multiple folks via social media, here on the forums, talking to my fiancee, and working on a side project all while doing this you have to learn patience, and probably some manners.
[/quote]

Not sure what manners has to do with anything. Just expressing how annoying your reminders of having worked for Microsoft have become. I know you're a smart guy. I believe that you have worked for Microsoft. I just don't believe it's absolutely necessary for you to repeat either of those things every other post.
6 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353466172' post='595338198']
Considering that I'm replying to multiple folks via social media, here on the forums, talking to my fiancee, and working on a side project all while doing this you have to learn patience, and probably some manners.
[/quote]
Manners? really?
Think you need to work on your own mate. I'm not the one who seems to **** people off with every second post.
Anyway, I'm not here to argue.
I thought you were ignoring the posts which you didn't like, you've now replied to those so my point is invalid.
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.