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Posted

C'mon guys who are whinging "why didn't they give us a choice to keep the old start menu etc"

THEY DID.. IT'S CALLED WINDOWS 7.

I'm sick of this never ending garbage flooding these threads. Windows 8 is faster for me in almost every way possible, I don't understand how it is not faster for everybody else.

I am in no way inconvenienced by the Start screen, it's much simpler to navigate than the ****ty hovery start menus and has advantages over it.

I choose to ignore most Metro apps, and the Desktop functions faster, and better, than in Windows 7 when I use my regular applications.

I WILL HOWEVER, give a free whinging pass to people with multiple monitors. I only use one.
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Posted

#3/7 was the missed olive branch for me. As LogicalApex points out, it's the purely business decisions that are the most controversial. I can understand why they didn't feel they had a reasonable shot growing up the WP ecosystem. After two years, my biggest surprise is that I haven't seen them deliver on developers. Its just sad that they chose to do it by flexing their monopoly which overshadows the great technical work they've done.

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Posted

[quote name='Osiris' timestamp='1353465074' post='595338160']
None of the options above achieve the direction Microsoft is heading, so saying these were alternatives is not a solution.

* A unified user experience across a range of devices
* A common UI across those devices
* An operating system capable of interacting effective with new types of user input; motion, touch, kinect, voice etc
* Common design language to leverage applications/games across the ecosystem.

This is part of a long term strategy and you will hear more of this over the next couple of years from MS 'convergence', their aim is to create a unified experience across desktop, tablet, phone, xbox.

This was hardly revolutionary, when MS scrapped Longhorn their design philosophy became evolution over revolution. Windows 7 did not and does not have a UI conducive to those new user inputs (even the old ones like touch that have been around for years!) nor the new UI direction, therefore Windows 8 is virtually Win7 with those new elements starting to appear. If they gave you a choice to disable those elements then when Windows 9 comes around and goes further down the path it would be even more of a shock.

Like any long-term plan sometimes theres short-term pain, and this pain is for desktop users as there are obvious tablet elements that serve a reduced purpose without a touch or other based interface. However over the next version etc that convergence will come together and it won't be so much of an issue.

Again just to recap the headlines; MS thinks ahead more than one OS at a time, convergence, unified experience, start menu aint coming back.
[/quote]

QFT.

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Posted

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353466588' post='595338224']
So you know for a fact that it was more work to take out the start menu and start button than it would have been to code fixes? Ok...state your source. I mean you KNOW this...so state your source.

As regards the intelligence bit...nice way to pick and choose there. You'll note I was replying directly to someone who said, and I quote: "Educate your self".

I was pointing out that I'm already educated and quite intelligent. Does that make me smarter than everyone? No...but it does mean I am intelligent and educated.

If you feel like that means I'm saying I'm better than you? I can't help your insecurities...that's your problem if you feel that way...not mine.


As regards Windows Phone 8...seems like you're an expert here again...so please state your source and prove to me that Windows Phone 8 could have worked on existing devices...there's a lot of hardware dependent functionality and core changes there...but after all you know better...so please prove it. :)

BTW, BrandonLive already posted the reasons for the removal...for someone that's trying to find ways to say I'm not intelligent...you sure didn't pay attention to that...



Reputation here on Neowin? I don't particularly care. I think it's time to get the thread cleaned and step out since everyone here just wants to attack me for some reason.
[/quote]

Seriously, I don't mean to sound mean... Please answer the question as you made the statement.

It is VERY well understood in Software Engineering that throwing out working code for new code is generally a [i]bad[/i] idea...

[quote]
The idea that new code is better than old is patently absurd. Old code has been [i]used[/i]. It has been [i]tested[/i]. [i]Lots[/i] of bugs have been found, and they've been [i]fixed[/i]. There's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't acquire bugs just by sitting around on your hard drive. Au contraire, baby! Is software supposed to be like an old Dodge Dart, that rusts just sitting in the garage? Is software like a teddy bear that's kind of gross if it's not made out of [i]all new material[/i]?
[/quote]
Source: [url="http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html"]Joel on Software[/url]

I'm not going to spend all night validating a well understood portion of software engineering. You can Google that debate if you need more information on it.

The reality is Microsoft removed the Start Menu for business reasons not technical ones and I'm just requesting people, like you, stop throwing out false technical reasons as the motivator here.
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Posted

[quote name='LogicalApex' timestamp='1353467144' post='595338258']
The reality is Microsoft removed the Start Menu for business reasons not technical ones and I'm just requesting people, like you, stop throwing out false technical reasons as the motivator here.
[/quote]

The developers say otherwise. Who am I going to trust more? You or the[i] actual people [/i]who worked on the @#%@#^ project?

Reality is you have no proof to back up your claims. They do.

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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1353467313' post='595338268']
The developers say otherwise. Who am I going to trust more? You or the[i] actual people [/i]who worked on the project?
[/quote]

Your call. Considering countless individuals, and teams have been able to bring back a start menu, I find it highly unlikely the minds behind the windows code couldn't do it effectively, or "without problems". Just sayin'

Be like LG not putting a door on their fridges because it took up room and caused problems when closed, and a bunch of people making a door that fit perfectly, and functioned 100%. To me that would seem like LG did it for a reason, and felt like saying it couldn't be done instead of saying: "We were told not to do it."
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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1353467313' post='595338268']
The developers say otherwise. Who am I going to trust more? You or the[i] actual people [/i]who worked on the @#%@#^ project?

[/quote]

Oh you will trust Microsoft lol, just a hunch ;)

**Caught ya before edit**

:)

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Posted

[quote name='firey' timestamp='1353467488' post='595338274']
Your call. Considering countless individuals, and teams have been able to bring back a start menu, I find it highly unlikely the minds behind the windows code couldn't do it effectively, or "without problems". Just sayin'

Be like LG not putting a door on their fridges because it took up room and caused problems when closed, and a bunch of people making a door that fit perfectly, and functioned 100%. To me that would seem like LG did it for a reason, and felt like saying it couldn't be done instead of saying: "We were told not to do it."
[/quote]

No, it would be more like LG putting out a new model with a new door design and people not liking it and wanting to put the door from their old model on the new one.

The problem is the old door doesn't fit on the new model and causes some issues...so they build their own door that works...but it's not quite the same thing.

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Posted

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353467304' post='595338264']
Actually that was in reply to another user who said:




Attacks on my mental state because I actually try to help folks, and in the course of that mention where I've worked and how I come by my knowledge?

I do that to ward off unnecessary questions, because I actually am a fairly busy person and am trying to answer as much as I can.

If it's not appreciated (which seems to be the case with some) then I'll just go back to lurking. I did it for years...and I can do it again.
[/quote]

If you feel it's necessary to go from one extreme to the other, by all means. However, I'd rather you take it as constructive criticism as it would be unfortunate to lose the knowledge you bring to these forums. Someone suggested something about putting your "experience" in your signature a few days ago I think it was. Might be time to rethink your response to that. It beats having you repeat it multiple times in a thread.

As for the Ford example, thing is I know what I know about what I know. I don't feel I should have to prove anything really. If I choose to assist someone and their response is "prove it" or "You don't know what you're talking about", my response is usually "Do it your way. I'll see you when you get back asking for help." ;)

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Posted

Is it really so hard to grasp that this wasn't a monetary decision or a technical one when a third party can do it for free or $5 of their time? There is no way to spin that otherwise. This was simply fallout from larger business/design decsions.
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Posted

[quote name='Osiris' timestamp='1353465074' post='595338160']
None of the options above achieve the direction Microsoft is heading, so saying these were alternatives is not a solution.

* A unified user experience across a range of devices
* A common UI across those devices
* An operating system capable of interacting effective with new types of user input; motion, touch, kinect, voice etc
* Common design language to leverage applications/games across the ecosystem.
[/quote]

[quote name='Brandon Live' timestamp='1343755590' post='595048551']
The start menu you're referring to had a lot of bugs because it wasn't kept in sync with other changes in the platform (i.e. MFU was totally broken, for one). It could not launch Metro style applications. It had no means to even represent them, because Metro style apps provide different resources. Its search infrastructure was similarly incompatible, didn't support new localization features, etc. It did not support our modern DPI scaling mechanism. It had problems with the new multi-mon features (i.e. secondary task bars). And these are just the things I remember off the top of my head. And then, even if we had put in all that effort (or just enough to keep it stumbling along), and sacrificed other features or overall quality, it would have created a disjointed experience which have been awful to use and to support.

Contrary to what you may think, we don't make these decisions on a whim.
[/quote]


[quote name='firey' timestamp='1353467488' post='595338274']
Your call. Considering countless individuals, and teams have been able to bring back a start menu, I find it highly unlikely the minds behind the windows code couldn't do it effectively, or "without problems". Just sayin'.
[/quote]

Sounds pretty technical and goal oriented to me. Dragging out the old Menu would have been akin to shooting your foot. Bringing back the Start Menu isn't going to achieve those goals. Those third party tools are not going to achieve those goals. I know Osiris (most likely) isn't a Microsoft employee, but BrandonLive very much is. And I'll take his word over anyone else's here any day. What do you want more? A Start Menu dragged out past it's prime? Or new features? Perhaps we can convince Microsoft that Multi-mon features are a joke, and should just kill them off so we can get the Start Menu back. While we're at it, tell Windows 8 developers their apps will be killed off. And that Surface thing? Eh, abandon it. It'll never be anything great without a Start Menu!

:rolleyes:

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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1353467313' post='595338268']
The developers say otherwise. Who am I going to trust more? You or the[i] actual people [/i]who worked on the @#%@#^ project?

Reality is you have no proof to back up your claims. They do.
[/quote]

As if Microsoft developers would go on record saying they disagree with the direction given to them by their leadership. If you don't understand why employees don't make those statements in public when there is no anonymity then you're probably unemployed or working at McDonald's.

MS Engineers will backup the product they shipped, no matter how bad the product is (not saying Windows 8 overall is bad). This is the reason you had MS engineers praising Windows Mobile up until the point MS threw it out the door, for instance.

Additionally, seriously if Stardock can do Start8 you want me to believe that Microsoft couldn't in any way have done something better? Seriously, I'm not delusional.

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353467465' post='595338270']
So someone tells you the truth, and you don't want to accept it. You can fight that good fight all you want.

Yes folks, it's all a conspiracy...to drive you insane so that Microsoft can take over the world...the removal of the start menu is just the beginning...mwahahahaha...seriously...ignore listed.



It won't do any good...he's got conspiracy on the brain and won't listen to anyone...
[/quote]

It isn't a conspiracy. There is a lot of pressure for Microsoft to get their foot in the mobile market. Windows Phone has been abysmal. I'm a Windows Phone developer and I love the platform and I love coding for it, but I'd be lying to myself if I didn't call its sales abysmal. Microsoft can't afford to let abysmal tablet sales happen as well. As a result, they are leveraging Desktop users to try and win back developers.

The reality is new development focuses on iOS first, Android second. Microsoft is trying to convince developers they need to focus on WinRT because it is shipping on millions of new devices and is front stage.

This isn't some conspiracy theory. They are business decisions that a first year BBA student can see being made!

But I guess instead of answering me post you just dodge them. Thanks.
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Posted

Shane, you may have good intentions, but it's clear to everyone that you're trying to make (poor) arguments based on a mix of reality, past and some top secret observations. All of that is not working fine and you're acting like someone who failed but can't really accept that. If it's not true, I'm sorry. But if it is (and you don't need to tell us) you should search for bipolar disorder and see if it makes sense to you. Good luck :)
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Posted

[quote name='LogicalApex' timestamp='1353468129' post='595338300']
As if Microsoft developers would go on record saying they disagree with the direction given to them by their leadership. If you don't understand why employees don't make those statements in public when there is no anonymity then you're probably unemployed or working at McDonald's.

MS Engineers will backup the product they shipped, no matter how bad the product is (not saying Windows 8 overall is bad). This is the reason you had MS engineers praising Windows Mobile up until the point MS threw it out the door, for instance.

Additionally, seriously if Stardock can do Start8 you want me to believe that Microsoft couldn't in any way have done something better? Seriously, I'm not delusional.
[/quote]

I don't consider Stardock's option better. In no way shape or form does it advance Microsoft's goals of unified systems. And yes, Developer's have freedom to talk technicalities. They do it all the time.

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Posted

Jesus, Bi-Polar, he will know all about that too....lol

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1353468678' post='595338318']
I don't consider Stardock's option better. In no way shape or form does it advance Microsoft's goals of unified systems.
[/quote]

You don't. But a hell of a lot do.
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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1353468678' post='595338318']
I don't consider Stardock's option better. In no way shape or form does it advance Microsoft's goals of unified systems. And yes, Developer's have freedom to talk technicalities. They do it all the time.
[/quote]

The removal of the Start Menu isn't a technical decision, but I'm not explaining this anymore. I feel I have done a fair job of explaining this.

I'd argue Start8 does a better job than Windows 8 default does of adding Metro while maintaining what makes the Desktop... well... A Desktop.

But debating this part with you is pointless as it is subjective and well [b]ALL[/b] know your view. I was asking Shane for technical reasons to back up his statement...
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Posted

Disturbingly, it's now Stardock's No.1 software lol? WTF!! Bang goes Galactic Civilizations lol. Gotta credit Win8 for something I guess lol.

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Posted

[quote name='LogicalApex' timestamp='1353468958' post='595338322']
I'd argue Start8 does a better job than Windows 8 default does of adding Metro while maintaining what makes the Desktop... well... A Desktop.
[/quote]

The Start Screen doesn't make my desktop, any less of a desktop. Not sure where this silliness is coming from. It still has a keyboard, and it still has a mouse. Desktop space? Yep, got that too: Win+D, boom, desktop. There you go.

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[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1353469355' post='595338336']
The Start Screen doesn't make my desktop, any less of a desktop. Not sure where this silliness is coming from. It still has a keyboard, and it still has a mouse. Desktop space? Yep, got that too: Win+D, boom, desktop. There you go.
[/quote]

It creates an impediment to the workflow that is used by many to actually [i]do[/i] stuff. This has been argued to the bone though and I'm not re-entering this debate. People who use their PC primarily for content consumption are, generally, happy with it and those who don't, generally, aren't.

I'm not against the Start Menu existing. I'm annoyed by the removal of any [i]options[/i] to control this thing, but as I said this was done for business reasons. You can't really use Desktop users as pawns to try and pull developers from iOS and Android when the only devices you're guaranteed to sell, traditional PCs, are flooded with users opting out of the new system.
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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1353469355' post='595338336'] The Start Screen doesn't make my desktop, any less of a desktop. Not sure where this silliness is coming from. It still has a keyboard, and it still has a mouse. Desktop space? Yep, got that too: Win+D, boom, desktop. There you go. [/quote]

Dot, it's pointless to explain. Logical isn't going to listen...even if you had irrefutable proof...even if there were no possible argument...Logical would still reject what is being said.

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[quote name='LogicalApex' timestamp='1353469724' post='595338354']
I'm not against the Start Menu existing. I'm annoyed by the removal of any [i]options[/i] to control this thing, but as I said this was done for business reasons. You can't really use Desktop users as pawns to try and pull developers from iOS and Android when the only devices you're guaranteed to sell, traditional PCs, are flooded with users opting out of the new system.
[/quote]

Yup. +1

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Posted

[quote name='LogicalApex' timestamp='1353469724' post='595338354']
You can't really use Desktop users as pawns to try and pull developers from iOS and Android when the only devices you're guaranteed to sell, traditional PCs, are flooded with users opting out of the new system.
[/quote]

Sorry, when have desktop systems been selling lately? Headlines seem to indicate sales are down, and not looking good any time soon.

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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1353471289' post='595338380']
Sorry, when have desktop systems been selling lately?
[/quote]

Typical Sinofsky view lol! :s
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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1353471289' post='595338380']
Sorry, when have desktop systems been selling lately?
[/quote]

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353469904' post='595338364']
Dot, it's pointless to explain. Logical isn't going to listen...even if you had irrefutable proof...even if there were no possible argument...Logical would still reject what is being said.
[/quote]

Obviously, serious discussions aren't possible...
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Posted

[quote name='Shane Nokes' timestamp='1353469904' post='595338364']
Dot, it's pointless to explain. Logical isn't going to listen...even if you had irrefutable proof...even if there were no possible argument...Logical would still reject what is being said.
[/quote]

That goes both way, you know. Do you honestly think that someone who has had various Microsoft related avatars this past year is going to accept an opposing viewpoint about an OS that he feverishly defends regardless of what others present? I'll give you a hint. [i][b]NO![/b][/i]
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