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Windows 8: The Seven Roads Not Taken


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#46 scaramonga

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:12

I'm not against the Start Menu existing. I'm annoyed by the removal of any options to control this thing, but as I said this was done for business reasons. You can't really use Desktop users as pawns to try and pull developers from iOS and Android when the only devices you're guaranteed to sell, traditional PCs, are flooded with users opting out of the new system.


Yup. +1


#47 Dot Matrix

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:14

You can't really use Desktop users as pawns to try and pull developers from iOS and Android when the only devices you're guaranteed to sell, traditional PCs, are flooded with users opting out of the new system.


Sorry, when have desktop systems been selling lately? Headlines seem to indicate sales are down, and not looking good any time soon.

#48 scaramonga

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:22

Sorry, when have desktop systems been selling lately?


Typical Sinofsky view lol! :s

#49 +LogicalApex

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:23

Sorry, when have desktop systems been selling lately?


Dot, it's pointless to explain. Logical isn't going to listen...even if you had irrefutable proof...even if there were no possible argument...Logical would still reject what is being said.


Obviously, serious discussions aren't possible...

#50 benthebear

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:28

Dot, it's pointless to explain. Logical isn't going to listen...even if you had irrefutable proof...even if there were no possible argument...Logical would still reject what is being said.


That goes both way, you know. Do you honestly think that someone who has had various Microsoft related avatars this past year is going to accept an opposing viewpoint about an OS that he feverishly defends regardless of what others present? I'll give you a hint. NO!

#51 notuptome2004

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:43

i sagest you guys watch these 2 videos



http://media.ch9.ms/...ng1993_high.mp4 windows 95 user testing usability labs of ordinary people



Now the idea behind the evolution of windows 8 he speaks about the evolution of windows 8 start screen and charms and where it is going and why it is there sorta and shows some early windows 8 mock ups .

Interesting fact showed in the video or explained is the earliest Start Menu mock ups happened in 1992

http://uxweek.com/20.../jensen-harris/

#52 Dazog

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:44

I very rarely have anything to say here on neowin anymore, but I thought I would reply to this.

The consumers will tell Microsoft if it didn't get it right with windows8, not some ex employee, not some fanboi or blogger.
They learned from vista and gave us windows 7. I mean look at there release pattern since windows 95.
It usually goes 1 great release, 1 not great release. That is history and fact.

As time goes on people are becoming more attached to corporations instead of themselves, if something doesn't work the way it used to for so long, of course you have the right to complain. But to have someone tell you "you don't get it" is just plain wrong.
Remember things are designed to be efficient AND easy for a vast majority to use, not just the uber leet out there. If you have that attitude why are you even using windows at all?

Vote with your wallet, show them they did wrong and they will change.
Just look at windows phone 7 and now 8. They will never be popular, they will just exist.

#53 scaramonga

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:58

I very rarely have anything to say here on neowin anymore, but I thought I would reply to this.

The consumers will tell Microsoft if it didn't get it right with windows8, not some ex employee, not some fanboi or blogger.
They learned from vista and gave us windows 7. I mean look at there release pattern since windows 95.
It usually goes 1 great release, 1 not great release. That is history and fact.

As time goes on people are becoming more attached to corporations instead of themselves, if something doesn't work the way it used to for so long, of course you have the right to complain. But to have someone tell you "you don't get it" is just plain wrong.
Remember things are designed to be efficient AND easy for a vast majority to use, not just the uber leet out there. If you have that attitude why are you even using windows at all?

Vote with your wallet, show them they did wrong and they will change.
Just look at windows phone 7 and now 8. They will never be popular, they will just exist.


I agree 100% buddy!, and if that is the only post you make for a long time, let it stand as a great one!

#54 trooper11

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:30

I usually just read through these forums, but seeing this constant barrage of threads releating to Windows 8 has caught my attention.

This topic in particular at least tries to be constructive vs the usual threads that just end up in madness.

I personally dont find Windows 8 to be terrible. I love the changes they made on the desktop side (storage spaces, hyper v client, task manager, file copy manager, etc) and find it performs just fine. I dont have an interest in using the metro side for anything other then the start screen, so I ignore that side of things. Its sort of like how most people ignore Media Center. The start screen may be unavoidable, but otherwise I am able to choose to stay in the desktop.

The lack of a start button is jarring at first, but since I rarely used it (outside of getting to search and settings like the control panel), it didnt take long to move forward. Since control panel and such are still just a right click away on the desktop, I dont feel a big loss. I'm still not sure whether I like the start screen better, but I will admit that it doesn't slow me down as much as I thought it might. I grew into the windows 7 taskbar, so I'm already use to accessing my favorite apps/web links/etc via the taskbar and not the start menu, so I dont need the start screen for launching apps. I also got use to searching for any files or folders I need via the explorer search box in windows 7, so since the same function exists in 8, I can just continue as I have been. To search system wide, I would prefer a windowed option, but launching from the charms menu is quick and results are also quick to show up as I start typing.

So overall, I am ok with how MS has handled this next step. I do however think that they will ultimately find a much better way of substituting the start menu that is more like what many power users want to have back. Maybe that means adding a 'classic mode' that includes booting straight to the desktop and offering a start menu, or maybe they can heavily refine the current configuration to be more pleasing to power users. That would include tieing metro and the desktop together in more meaningful and useful ways for power users. Either way, I find it hard to believe they will do nothing. All signs point to a quick update cycle going forward, so I expect considerable work being done over the next 6-8 months to fix alot of the nagging issues.

#55 trooper11

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:40

Vote with your wallet, show them they did wrong and they will change. Just look at windows phone 7 and now 8. They will never be popular, they will just exist.


Good post, but this last bit I would disagree with. WP has a chance to be very popular, it just requires alot of time and heavy investment from MS (in advertising and development) and devs. The last market share numbers and sales were trending up right as WP8 launched, so we could see that continue (I think it was up to 5%). Again, its very slow thanks to the dominance of Apple and Google. Anyone that is starting with a clean slate and 0 apps is going to have a long road to any success. People buy into ecosystems now, so its fairly unlikely that people that own an Apple or Android for a while will be interested in switching to anything, losing all the apps/media they have bought in the process.

I just dont think its as simple as people outright rejecting a WP.

#56 trooper11

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:03

It creates an impediment to the workflow that is used by many to actually do stuff. This has been argued to the bone though and I'm not re-entering this debate. People who use their PC primarily for content consumption are, generally, happy with it and those who don't, generally, aren't. I'm not against the Start Menu existing. I'm annoyed by the removal of any options to control this thing, but as I said this was done for business reasons. You can't really use Desktop users as pawns to try and pull developers from iOS and Android when the only devices you're guaranteed to sell, traditional PCs, are flooded with users opting out of the new system.


I think that is a fair point, although I will be very interested in seeing how many people that use it to do work actually feel held back. Right now we sure have alot of 'noise' on the internet, but thats a fairly unreliable way to prove a point. I only say that becuase my own experience has felt as held back. Again, its not to say everyone feels the same, but I feel like there is a division forming even among content creators (i.e. people using it for work, not email and internet or gaming alone).

I also agree that this was a calculated risk by MS to make sure the general public got to see the metro ui, even if its just for the start screen. I also think they are well aware that this will upset many power users in the process. My guess is that they felt that they could appease power users down the line via various updates (since they are aiming for a rapid update cycle now)

I think general users will actually handle the transition better then most power users. While standard desktops will be sold in large numbers without any touch capability, the large growth in All-in-One configurations could mean that many new buyers get the touch experience from the beginning. The big unknown is tablets, especially any that can double as a laptop with a keyboard dock. There is so little stock out there, so we wont really know what customers are interested in for several months, at least until the Surface Pro launches. By Janurary, there should be a flood of tablets, laptops, and all-in-ones on the market to choose from.

Just to go into the consumer reaction a bit more, even though it is early, I wanted to share my experiences with customers buying windows 8 pcs. So far, it seems like if we take a few minutes to show the changes, people can get up to speed fairly quickly.

We have already sold a dozen or so windows 8 systems (laptops, desktops, and all in ones) and the initial response has been good. We show them a demo unit and show off the fact there is no start menu and how the start screen works. If the system has a touch screen, we show off Metro, but if it does not, then we focus on the Start Screen only. We show off the charms menu for getting to things like search and shut down along with the option to right click in the lower left corner in order to get to control panel, etc. We also point out that there is no link to 'Computer' or 'My Computer', but all you need to do to access the same area is to click on the folder icon on the taskbar. Keep in mind that while many of these people are your average user, a couple have been professionals say in using AutoCAD or Photoshop (not sure if you would call them power users since they dont know the ins and outs of windows, but they are definitely content creators, not consumers)

So I am curious to see what the trend is overall for the market. I feel that MS can easily fix the issues being raised both on the Metro side and the desktop, so I really hope for their sake that they come through on a rapid update schedule. That would make alot of power users feel more confident in MS trying to make things better for them.

#57 scaramonga

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:35

Nice to see new members with a 'decent' point of view, without getting 'slated', well done. :)

#58 Dot Matrix

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:17

Just look at windows phone 7 and now 8. They will never be popular, they will just exist.


Huh? Windows Phone is on it's way to becoming a third mobile platform, Hell I already classify it as such. RIM certainly isn't much of a contender anymore.

#59 Orange Battery

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:44

MS had a well liked Windows 7 interface and a very appealing Win Phone 7 OS. Windows 8 should have been a desktop on the PC with a big option to switch to Win Phone 7 ui if on a tablet or other touch screen. It was so simple.

#60 Richard C.

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:38

Before people get me wrong on this thread, I am not a fan of Windows 8. I'm going to explain why in a bulleted list but please consider my environment before you rebut my points:

My PC environment
I sit at a big desk in a room with large speakers and a big screen TV at the other end, on this desk is a desktop PC, and an iMac. Hence 2 27" monitors. Infront of my desk is a couch for when i wanted to watch the TV. So I can keep my vision I sit about 1m away from the screens, so its understandable that touch is something that I can't really use on a regular basis.

My Points
  • As stated above, Touch is a big nono for me, so this makes the Modern UI essentially useless, as while it's possible to use it with a Mouse and keyboard, its hardly ideal.
  • I tend to have anything between 5 and 100 items on my screen at a time, notes, small sized applications, videos, browsers you name it. So the idea that I can split my screen in half and have the luxury of opening TWO windows only is a joke, considering MS is likely considering removing the desktop entirely by Windows 9 or 10, Windows will no longer meet my needs as it is unable to display multiple applications acceptably
  • I can live without the start menu, my Mac has no start menu and I've had no trouble launching all the apps on it by adding a list type folder to the dock, This is partially solved by the start screen, but not in a way that is comfortable
  • Huge numbers of tiles require an MS account, while this doesn't bother my needs as such since my device is always online, I'd hate to try and access data I've saved on say Windows Calendar in an offline environment such as on my laptop in a presentation room, displaying things to people on say a construction site, or on a train. (Here there are no wireless on trains, and it's often hard enough to get any cellphone signal, let alonr 3g or lte). The impracticality of it aside, if I want to store data offline using every app on the computer that doesn't specifically require internet access (messaging and games essentially) I should have the capability to do so.
  • On a big screen its a usability nightmare to have hidden buttons on the sides of the screen. I can't think of anything worse than having to be incredibly careful about where I place my windows incase I accidentally mouse over some hidden feature when I take something from that Window
  • ILike keyboard shortcuts, but my dad doesn't, so claiming that there are 1000x new ways of doing things, I'm not interested if for no other reason than stupid amount of phone calls I'll get from, that I can't help with because WIndows 8 is so radically different and probably has 100 new things I've not seen having only a few hours experience of it.
  • I have little use for tablets, and find them a waste of money since for the same price a small notebook (ultrabook?) offers better functionality, so why would I want a tablet OS on my desktop?
If anyone can pro windows 8 can give me a point to point rebuttal of these, please do so and I'll swap to Windows 8 Permanently tomorrow.