97 replies to this topic 4 votes

[nekkidtruth]

Shane Nokes, on 20 November 2012 - 09:21, said:

Indeed. Since you're apparently connected and a SME on that matter you won't mind posting proof then.

With all due respect Shane, give it a rest. It might have been cool at some point or another to constantly remind people of where you worked, but it's since become repetitive and at times unpleasant.

There are two sides to all of this. Microsoft made changes that they feel were necessary due to what they can see internally (Something you repeatedly remind us you're privy to, at least to some degree) and the view customers have where things were changed "just cause" for all intents and purposes. Maybe sometimes you need to step back and discuss some of these things as a consumer, which is what everyone else around here is. Your position doesn't need to change (everyone is entitled to their own opinion), but you might want to rethink the way you bring it across. The "I worked for Microsoft and know what I'm talking about, you're all wrong" attitude that you exude is really starting to get old. You'd probably find that there are few who really actually care who you may or may not have worked for in the past or present. Has anyone asked you to prove you know better than anyone else around here (aka. Prove you worked where you say you worked)? Anyone can say all sorts of things on the Internet.

[Osiris]

None of the options above achieve the direction Microsoft is heading, so saying these were alternatives is not a solution.

* A unified user experience across a range of devices
* A common UI across those devices
* An operating system capable of interacting effective with new types of user input; motion, touch, kinect, voice etc
* Common design language to leverage applications/games across the ecosystem.

This is part of a long term strategy and you will hear more of this over the next couple of years from MS 'convergence', their aim is to create a unified experience across desktop, tablet, phone, xbox.

This was hardly revolutionary, when MS scrapped Longhorn their design philosophy became evolution over revolution. Windows 7 did not and does not have a UI conducive to those new user inputs (even the old ones like touch that have been around for years!) nor the new UI direction, therefore Windows 8 is virtually Win7 with those new elements starting to appear. If they gave you a choice to disable those elements then when Windows 9 comes around and goes further down the path it would be even more of a shock.

Like any long-term plan sometimes theres short-term pain, and this pain is for desktop users as there are obvious tablet elements that serve a reduced purpose without a touch or other based interface. However over the next version etc that convergence will come together and it won't be so much of an issue.

Again just to recap the headlines; MS thinks ahead more than one OS at a time, convergence, unified experience, start menu aint coming back.

[LogicalApex]

Shane Nokes, on 20 November 2012 - 05:44, said:

To clarify, the start menu was removed due to a lot of the changes in the OS that led to it not working properly.

And Comcast put a cap on their internet service because people are sucking all the bandwidth... Given enough words you can cleverly word anything as a mandatory choice. PR people make a living of making everything in our world sound mutually exclusive and as if there were no other choice. The reality is with software you can do anything when the code is already written. It cost Microsoft more engineering effort to remove the Start Menu then it did to leave it in place. Especially since the code for the Start Menu was almost 20 years of solid code...

The reality is Microsoft removed the Start Menu for business reasons. I'm getting sick of the ... words for covering it up. It was a business decision not a technical one. Just like the decision to not give existing WP devices an upgrade to 8. It was a business decision not a technical one.

You are always quick to quip up on the forum that you're quite a bit more intelligent than most. If this is the case stop regurgitating illogical drivel and start acting how you claim. Give me the solid, technical, reasons why the Start Menu had to be removed because it no longer could possibly work...

I'm serious, I want solid reasons. It took more work to remove the Start Menu code and refactor the code that depends on it and to ensure compatibility with existing software than it did to leave it alone. I don't want anymore drivel.

[+warwagon]

I think one of the main issues with windows 8 is is not much the removal of the start menu but the start button. The fact that most major components of the OS are hidden from the user until you touch it with your mouse is just stupid. I say at the very least bring the button back so it stays in the bottom left and doesn't disappear when your mouse isn't on it.

You would be surprised...(or probably not) ..but every conversation I have with customers about windows 8 they all ask me if it's any good if you don't have a touch screen, or they think you need a touch screen to use it. That is the consensus of the general public / average user.... can you blame them?

[Shane Nokes]

Growled, on 21 November 2012 - 02:06, said:

Yeah, I too think this is tied into tablet and phone sales. They forgot one little item, no one wants their phones.

Phone sales are actually picking up...even percentage wise...not just total number of units.

Also this move? Planned for years...

Windows Phone wasn't even yet an actual project when they had already figured out the direction for 8. They were still working on 'Photon'...sorry to burst that theory...even though it's a popular one.

[Guth]

Shane Nokes, on 21 November 2012 - 02:39, said:

Phone sales are actually picking up...even percentage wise...not just total number of units.

Also this move? Planned for years...

Windows Phone wasn't even yet an actual project when they had already figured out the direction for 8. They were will working on 'Photon'...sorry to burst that theory...even though it's a popular one.

nice selective replying there!

[Shane Nokes]

nekkidtruth, on 21 November 2012 - 02:22, said:

With all due respect Shane, give it a rest. It might have been cool at some point or another to constantly remind people of where you worked, but it's since become repetitive and at times unpleasant.

There are two sides to all of this. Microsoft made changes that they feel were necessary due to what they can see internally (Something you repeatedly remind us you're privy to, at least to some degree) and the view customers have where things were changed "just cause" for all intents and purposes. Maybe sometimes you need to step back and discuss some of these things as a consumer, which is what everyone else around here is. Your position doesn't need to change (everyone is entitled to their own opinion), but you might want to rethink the way you bring it across. The "I worked for Microsoft and know what I'm talking about, you're all wrong" attitude that you exude is really starting to get old. You'd probably find that there are few who really actually care who you may or may not have worked for in the past or present. Has anyone asked you to prove you know better than anyone else around here (aka. Prove you worked where you say you worked)? Anyone can say all sorts of things on the Internet.

It's not about cool. It's about pointing out that there are things that I do happen to know about. I don't care if anyone thinks I'm cool.

If that were a consideration I would spend my days kissing ass. Sorry not gonna happen.

As regards that...some of the staff know precisely where I've worked. There are some projects I've worked on that I can't talk about...in fact most of them are things I can't even really comment on. Probably the only safe project I can talk about or point to (and the one I had the most fun on) was Fable II. If you happen to own the game you can pop in the disc. I'm in the credits...several minutes in.

The other teams I've worked on have all been related to Xbox, Zune, & Windows Phone. The nature of the work is such that it's not really something I can talk about...due to specific agreements signed as part of that work.

Guth, on 21 November 2012 - 02:47, said:

]nice selective replying there!

Considering that I'm replying to multiple folks via social media, here on the forums, talking to my fiancee, and working on a side project all while doing this you have to learn patience, and probably some manners.

[scaramonga]

nekkidtruth, on 21 November 2012 - 02:22, said:

With all due respect Shane, give it a rest. It might have been cool at some point or another to constantly remind people of where you worked, but it's since become repetitive and at times unpleasant.

Tedious ain't it?

[nekkidtruth]

Shane Nokes, on 21 November 2012 - 02:49, said:

It's not about cool. It's about pointing out that there are things that I do happen to know about. I don't care if anyone thinks I'm cool.

Then why do you feel you need to repeat it nearly every single post? Heck, I've seen you post it in replies where it was completely irrelevant.

Shane Nokes, on 21 November 2012 - 02:49, said:

If that were a consideration I would spend my days kissing ass. Sorry not gonna happen.

Except you kiss Microsoft's ass everyday at least twice a day in one of your responses?

Shane Nokes, on 21 November 2012 - 02:49, said:

As regards that...some of the staff know precisely where I've worked. There are some projects I've worked on that I can't talk about...in fact most of them are things I can't even really comment on. Probably the only safe project I can talk about or point to (and the one I had the most fun on) was Fable II. If you happen to own the game you can pop in the disc. I'm in the credits...several minutes in.

Why would anyone care whether the staff around here know where you may or may not have worked? This is the arrogance I'm referring to. From what I've seen, nobody actually cares. It's not really significant. I mean, it's absolutely helpful once in a while to say "Hey! That's not how it actually works guys, it's like this." However, you're attitude is more of a "You're wrong. I worked for Microsoft. I know better." which doesn't really depict you as the person you like to describe yourself as around here.

Shane Nokes, on 21 November 2012 - 02:49, said:

The other teams I've worked on have all been related to Xbox, Zune, & Windows Phone. The nature of the work is such that it's not really something I can talk about...due to specific agreements signed as part of that work.

Ok...?

Shane Nokes, on 21 November 2012 - 02:49, said:

Considering that I'm replying to multiple folks via social media, here on the forums, talking to my fiancee, and working on a side project all while doing this you have to learn patience, and probably some manners.

Not sure what manners has to do with anything. Just expressing how annoying your reminders of having worked for Microsoft have become. I know you're a smart guy. I believe that you have worked for Microsoft. I just don't believe it's absolutely necessary for you to repeat either of those things every other post.

[Guth]

Shane Nokes, on 21 November 2012 - 02:49, said:

Considering that I'm replying to multiple folks via social media, here on the forums, talking to my fiancee, and working on a side project all while doing this you have to learn patience, and probably some manners.

Manners? really?
Think you need to work on your own mate. I'm not the one who seems to **** people off with every second post.
Anyway, I'm not here to argue.
I thought you were ignoring the posts which you didn't like, you've now replied to those so my point is invalid.

[DarkyDan]

C'mon guys who are whinging "why didn't they give us a choice to keep the old start menu etc"

THEY DID.. IT'S CALLED WINDOWS 7.

I'm sick of this never ending garbage flooding these threads. Windows 8 is faster for me in almost every way possible, I don't understand how it is not faster for everybody else.

I am in no way inconvenienced by the Start screen, it's much simpler to navigate than the ****ty hovery start menus and has advantages over it.

I choose to ignore most Metro apps, and the Desktop functions faster, and better, than in Windows 7 when I use my regular applications.

I WILL HOWEVER, give a free whinging pass to people with multiple monitors. I only use one.

[Dashel]

#3/7 was the missed olive branch for me. As LogicalApex points out, it's the purely business decisions that are the most controversial. I can understand why they didn't feel they had a reasonable shot growing up the WP ecosystem. After two years, my biggest surprise is that I haven't seen them deliver on developers. Its just sad that they chose to do it by flexing their monopoly which overshadows the great technical work they've done.

[Dot Matrix]

Osiris, on 21 November 2012 - 02:31, said:

None of the options above achieve the direction Microsoft is heading, so saying these were alternatives is not a solution.

* A unified user experience across a range of devices
* A common UI across those devices
* An operating system capable of interacting effective with new types of user input; motion, touch, kinect, voice etc
* Common design language to leverage applications/games across the ecosystem.

This is part of a long term strategy and you will hear more of this over the next couple of years from MS 'convergence', their aim is to create a unified experience across desktop, tablet, phone, xbox.

This was hardly revolutionary, when MS scrapped Longhorn their design philosophy became evolution over revolution. Windows 7 did not and does not have a UI conducive to those new user inputs (even the old ones like touch that have been around for years!) nor the new UI direction, therefore Windows 8 is virtually Win7 with those new elements starting to appear. If they gave you a choice to disable those elements then when Windows 9 comes around and goes further down the path it would be even more of a shock.

Like any long-term plan sometimes theres short-term pain, and this pain is for desktop users as there are obvious tablet elements that serve a reduced purpose without a touch or other based interface. However over the next version etc that convergence will come together and it won't be so much of an issue.

Again just to recap the headlines; MS thinks ahead more than one OS at a time, convergence, unified experience, start menu aint coming back.

QFT.

[LogicalApex]

Shane Nokes, on 21 November 2012 - 02:56, said:

So you know for a fact that it was more work to take out the start menu and start button than it would have been to code fixes? Ok...state your source. I mean you KNOW this...so state your source.

As regards the intelligence bit...nice way to pick and choose there. You'll note I was replying directly to someone who said, and I quote: "Educate your self".

I was pointing out that I'm already educated and quite intelligent. Does that make me smarter than everyone? No...but it does mean I am intelligent and educated.

If you feel like that means I'm saying I'm better than you? I can't help your insecurities...that's your problem if you feel that way...not mine.


As regards Windows Phone 8...seems like you're an expert here again...so please state your source and prove to me that Windows Phone 8 could have worked on existing devices...there's a lot of hardware dependent functionality and core changes there...but after all you know better...so please prove it.

BTW, BrandonLive already posted the reasons for the removal...for someone that's trying to find ways to say I'm not intelligent...you sure didn't pay attention to that...



Reputation here on Neowin? I don't particularly care. I think it's time to get the thread cleaned and step out since everyone here just wants to attack me for some reason.

Seriously, I don't mean to sound mean... Please answer the question as you made the statement.

It is VERY well understood in Software Engineering that throwing out working code for new code is generally a bad idea...

Quote

The idea that new code is better than old is patently absurd. Old code has been used. It has been tested. Lots of bugs have been found, and they've been fixed. There's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't acquire bugs just by sitting around on your hard drive. Au contraire, baby! Is software supposed to be like an old Dodge Dart, that rusts just sitting in the garage? Is software like a teddy bear that's kind of gross if it's not made out of all new material?

Source: Joel on Software

I'm not going to spend all night validating a well understood portion of software engineering. You can Google that debate if you need more information on it.

The reality is Microsoft removed the Start Menu for business reasons not technical ones and I'm just requesting people, like you, stop throwing out false technical reasons as the motivator here.

[Dot Matrix]

LogicalApex, on 21 November 2012 - 03:05, said:

The reality is Microsoft removed the Start Menu for business reasons not technical ones and I'm just requesting people, like you, stop throwing out false technical reasons as the motivator here.

The developers say otherwise. Who am I going to trust more? You or the actual people who worked on the @#%@#^ project?

Reality is you have no proof to back up your claims. They do.