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A Free and Open World Depends on a Free and Open Web


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#16 OP Asrokhel

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:45

Free as in free speech (libre), not free as in free beer (gratis)


That's what I said.


#17 ichi

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:24

No, Google doesn't care if the internet is free. They care about market access so they can make money on the users, if the users are free to do whatever they want on said internet is something google don't give a flying f about, outside of looking good on press conferences.

That's why Google will stand on their press conferences in the west proclaiming support for a free internet, while handing all your info to the government on request, and when China and IRan asks them to censor their search results and help them censor the internet, they go "sure, as long as we get to serve ads and collect info about the users, we'll even share everything we learn about them with you".


Google moved their search service out to Hong Kong in 2010 so they didn't have to play along with Chinese censorship as they had to do to get unblocked after 2002. They have anyway always refused to share any information about users and their searches with the Chinese government, which could be the whole reason why they assaulted Google's systems to try to get that info.

Much unlike Bing on the other hand, which is still operating in China and playing along with the government's censorship.

Regarding "handing all your info to the government on request", every company does that to the extent the law forces them to do so (eg. a court order). If you have any proof of Google going the extra step and happily giving away data for no good reason, be my guest and show it.

#18 thealexweb

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:38

Google took a stand in China, rather than hand over user's information and censor results it pulled out and now one in six of the world's population can't use Google, bold move.

#19 HawkMan

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:42

Google is still playing along with the censorship, it doesn't matter where their servers are, if they don't they get blocked int he great firewall. Moving them out just prevents the Chinese to raid their server at any time. It has no practical effect on their ability to provide a service in Chine without censoring, or not providing the government with any info.

if they want chinese money, they have to appease the state. and there's a LOT of chinese to make ad money of, so google is not giving up on chine just because on some censoring.

Google took a stand in China, rather than hand over user's information and censor results it pulled out and now one in six of the world's population can't use Google, bold move.


Actually, I believe they later made a deal with the government and are back in China, but they still have to sensor, the rules regarding handing over info changed a bit, but they still have to do it, but it requires more paperwork and crap. but then they hand over info in America to so...

Also remember that Google is REALLY tiny in China, as everyone uses the Chinese equivalent, Baidu or whatever.

#20 ichi

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:48

Google is still playing along with the censorship, it doesn't matter where their servers are, if they don't they get blocked int he great firewall. Moving them out just prevents the Chinese to raid their server at any time. It has no practical effect on their ability to provide a service in Chine without censoring, or not providing the government with any info.

if they want chinese money, they have to appease the state. and there's a LOT of chinese to make ad money of, so google is not giving up on chine just because on some censoring.



Actually, I believe they later made a deal with the government and are back in China, but they still have to sensor, the rules regarding handing over info changed a bit, but they still have to do it, but it requires more paperwork and crap. but then they hand over info in America to so...


Google isn't censoring results in China, that's the whole reason they moved to Hong Kong. The Chinese "Great Firewall" is censoring Google results from Google China exactly the same as it does with Google.com.

As for Google sharing information with the Chinese government I'll just say the same that I said before about your other claims: back your statements with facts, because you are just speculating while every source I've found points to Google not sharing anything with the Chinese government.

#21 HawkMan

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:29

Wherever google is, they're still being censored by the great firewall, So they're still complying with the chinese government, just in way that makes it seem like they're being a nice guy and fighting censorship.

#22 ichi

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:37

Wherever google is, they're still being censored by the great firewall, So they're still complying with the chinese government, just in way that makes it seem like they're being a nice guy and fighting censorship.


Whether the great firewall censors sites that operate outside of Chinese jurisdiction has hardly anything to do with those sites complying with Chinese censorship. Those censorship laws don't apply to Google Hong Kong, and therefore neither to Google China operating from Hong Kong.

It's services that are currently operating inside China (such as Bing) which are bound to Chinese censorship laws, and who are complying with Chinese government censorship.

#23 jakem1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:39

Google is interested in a free (as in freedom)...


Then why don't they support my right to privacy and my right to be free of their data mining? Why do they censor the search results that appear on their website and manipulate results to favour their own products? Why don't they practice what they preach in countries like China?

Google are hypocrites and their defenders are naive at best.

#24 ichi

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:42

Then why don't they support my right to privacy and my right to be free of their data mining? Why do they censor the search results that appear on their website and manipulate results to favour their own products? Why don't they practice what they preach in countries like China?

Google are hypocrites and their defenders are naive at best.


Google is a corporation, nuf said. Just because they support a free and open web doesn't mean they aren't intrusive, obnoxious and sometimes bordering (or even outright) illegal in their business practices.

Regarding China, see the replies above.

#25 Javik

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:45

Thread about Google appears, the Microsoft trolls flood in. It's like a Formula here. Web censorship is a bad thing, people should be on the side of one of the few corporations that isn't trying to censor the web.

#26 jakem1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 13:01

Google is a corporation, nuf said. Just because they support a free and open web doesn't mean they aren't intrusive, obnoxious and sometimes bordering (or even outright) illegal in their business practices.


That's my point though. They don't really support a free and open web if their own actions undermine that goal. Until Google start respecting people's rights anything they have to say about a free and open web is just meaningless marketing and propaganda. IMO Google do a lot less than Microsoft to actively promote a free and open web (and I'm certainly not silly enough to believe that MS are 100% altruistic in this regard) but they certainly do a lot more to promote themselves as knights in shining armour. It's all just a cover to disguise the fact that they want to create an environment where they can control and monetise the flow of information.

Thread about Google appears, the Microsoft trolls flood in. It's like a Formula here. Web censorship is a bad thing, people should be on the side of one of the few corporations that isn't trying to censor the web.


Here we go again. Someone says something you don't understand/agree with and your only response is to resort to cheap, baseless attacks. :rolleyes:

#27 HawkMan

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 14:05

Thread about Google appears, the Microsoft trolls flood in. It's like a Formula here. Web censorship is a bad thing, people should be on the side of one of the few corporations that isn't trying to censor the web.

Sorry, but, the only peopel mentioning Microsoft products are the google apologists in this thread. so what MS trolls ? oh right ,anyone who doesn't bow down and kneel before the great lower case g is a Microsoft fanboy, I forgot :rolleyes:

#28 ichi

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 14:21

It's all just a cover to disguise the fact that they want to create an environment where they can control and monetise the flow of information.


I don't think they are even covering anything, really. Monetising the information is their core business.

The thing is, the more open and free the web is, the easier it gets to index all the content and track the users.
Take flash for instance: something as relatively innocuous as that was hindering Google's ability to index content, hence why they are pushing to replace every bit of proprietary tech with open standards such as HTML5.

As I said before, their push for an open web aligns with our interests. Their reasons to do so don't.
IMO supporting the former while opposing the latter is not hypocritical, but rather pragmatical.

Sorry, but, the only peopel mentioning Microsoft products are the google apologists in this thread.


Questioning baseless claims about alleged shady deals with governments makes you a Google apologist now?

#29 Athernar

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 17:46

Thread about Google appears, the Microsoft trolls flood in. It's like a Formula here. Web censorship is a bad thing, people should be on the side of one of the few corporations that isn't trying to censor the web.


Do you realise how hypocritical you're being?

In the thread about Chrome/Webkit stifling the open web with their vendor-specific cruft, you came in as a Google troll (To borrow your terminology) and criticised Microsoft when in that case, they were the ones advocating use of vendor-agnostic standards that would benefit every browser. So you really don't have a leg to stand on when decrying "Microsoft trolls" in this thread.

If you want to be ends-justifies-the-means about this then fine, but frankly as far as I'm concerned - Microgoogle can go collectively jump off a cliff.

#30 jakem1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:25

The thing is, the more open and free the web is, the easier it gets to index all the content and track the users.


Not really. A truly free web would include protections that allow people to freely express themselves without fear of being tracked or monitored by corporations and governments. That's the bit that Google is opposed to.