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Posted

[quote name='BajiRav' timestamp='1355202688' post='595383026']
What worked for years? There was no system-wide notification feature in Windows 8 before this. In this particular case, it was just usual complaining about something the user didn't know could be done in a certain consistent manner.
App > settings > permission to show notification
System > settings > permissions for all apps
doesn't get any simpler than that.

On a more general term, nothing has changed for desktop users except the start menu, which I could easily adjust to within few mins without using any 3rd party stuff.
[/quote]

I made THAT point way back during the Consumer Preview.

The Start menu itself started to become irrelevant (to me, at least) way back in Windows Vista, and largely because of two features that are still in Windows 8 today (though the Start menu is not) - Taskbar pinning and the Superbar.

I came to the PC from (surprise!) mainframes, and during 1987/1988; for me, PCs themselves were actually a "plan B". Segue to a mere ten years later; while mainframes are still around, they actually were a smaler percentage of computing than even Windows. I had also changed word processing programs (again, by necessity) from WordPerfect (which I first discovered on IBM mainframes - which was, in fact where it began!) to Microsoft Word (beginning with Word for Windows 95 - NOT Word for Windows 6.0), due to, amazingly, better backward-compatibility with WordPerfect files than WordPerfect for Windows 6.0a. It was all the more surprising since I was very much in computing - in fact, I was, among other things, tutoring home users in using WordPerfect - due to several rather nasty issues Microsoft was having with Word 5.0 for DOS. WordPerfect's response was WordPerfect 5.1 - arguably THE best MS-DOS-based word-processor ever written. Between WordPerfect's seemingly insurmountable lead (WordPerfect 5.1 had won their third consecutive Editor's Choice from PC Magazine in the MS-DOS word processor category) and the flubbed Word, it looked so bad that Microsoft was getting a lot of requests to leave word-processing software altogether (primarily due to the issues with Word). The worm turned rather quickly - in 1995 it was WordPerfect - then in the middle of a friendly acquisition by Noveil - that would stub its foot; the victim was WordPerfect for Windows. The nightmare (for WordPerfect) was that much-vaunted backward-compatibility - basically the issue that had been the strength of WordPerfect for DOS - was badly broken. Microsoft, on the other hand, followed up the flubbed Word 5 for DOS and bugfix 5.5 for DOS with Word for Windows (3.x) 6.0/Office Standard (4.2)/Office Professional (4.3) in late 1994 and immediately thereafter got the first beta out the door of Office for Windows 95. Word for Windows 6.0 (quickly shortened to WinWord) became a smash success in offices running Windows 3.x - what was horrifying for WordPerfect fanatics (especially in law firms - WordPerfect was still strong there largely to their excellence in super-long document types, such as legalese) was that WinWord95 was even better - it was quite capable of swallowing WordPerfect documents whole - legalese and all - without so much as a burp, THEN spitting out documents in any number of formats without a quibble - something WordPerfect itself could not do. It became the beginning of a LONG nightmare for WordPerfect (in then the hands of Novell, and later after the transfer to the Great White North and Corel Corporation) which continues today.

Could THAT very well be the reason why there remains a groundswell of insistence that Microsoft do nothing - because of their nasty habit of not merely snatching victory from the jaws of seemingly utter defeat, but using it to smash defeat upside the noggin more successfully than even James Tiberius Kirk in the "Star Trek" TV series?
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Posted

ive got my $14.95 license with the media center pack. start menu hack, and I love it.

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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1355197520' post='595382922']
What the hell you just said, I have no clue, but not one ounce of it was based off any sort of facts whatsoever.
[/quote]

Of course you wouldn't, and I knew you would be the first to chime in saying so. You eat and sleep Windows 8, hell you probably go to bed with it too, good for you, I'm delighted for ya, I really am :)

I'm really looking forward to a few months down the line, and getting your reaction to the inevitable news, that this gamble taken by MS, has fallen like a lead brick with added 'turbo'.

You will have your facts pretty soon Dot, should be very interesting indeed ;)

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Posted

For the millionth time, we are talking about a desktop version of the operating system. Why does Microsoft NEED.....I repeat, absolutely NEED to change or else they will fail? Last I checked OS X still had the Dock and the basic functionality remains the same. They did things the right way by making Launchpad optional.

Professional computer use has not changed in the last 20 years, why does Windows FOR THE DESKTOP.....again FOR THE DESKTOP.....need to change?

I will not be programming 8 hours a day with a touch screen, or doing my photoshop/after effects work.

What makes Windows 8 NEED to be changed?
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Posted

[quote name='xWhiplash' timestamp='1355233398' post='595383556']
For the millionth time, we are talking about a desktop version of the operating system. Why does Microsoft NEED.....I repeat, absolutely NEED to change or else they will fail? Last I checked OS X still had the Dock and the basic functionality remains the same. They did things the right way by making Launchpad optional.

Professional computer use has not changed in the last 20 years, why does Windows FOR THE DESKTOP.....again FOR THE DESKTOP.....need to change?

I will not be programming 8 hours a day with a touch screen, or doing my photoshop/after effects work.

What makes Windows 8 NEED to be changed?
[/quote]

You make it sound as if we'll all just have monitors in the future. No one ever said the keyboard is going away. Sheesh.

Things change. Time to put on your big boy pants and deal.

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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1355233544' post='595383566']
Things change. Time to put on your big boy pants and deal.
[/quote]

That's a stupid response. Answer his question if you can.
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Posted

[quote name='HoochieMamma' timestamp='1355233930' post='595383580']
That's a stupid response. Answer his question if you can.
[/quote]

He can answer his own question. It's a matter of market trends: Tablets. Smartphones. Platform unification. Same frakkin reasons the command line died out. Computing is moving in new directions. THERE'S your reasons for change.

See, how hard was that?

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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1355234070' post='595383588']
He can answer his own question. It's a matter of market trends: Tablets. Smartphones. Platform unification. Same frakkin reasons the command line died out. Computing is moving in new directions. THERE'S your reasons for change.

See, how hard was that?
[/quote]

You are comparing a different product line and ecosystem to command line evolving to GUIs? Okay.....

You guys act as if Microsoft made a Windows 8: Desktop Edition where it was only the desktop environment that the world will end.

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Posted

[quote name='xWhiplash' timestamp='1355234477' post='595383608']
You are comparing a different product line and ecosystem to command line evolving to GUIs? Okay.....

You guys act as if Microsoft made a Windows 8: Desktop Edition where it was only the desktop environment that the world will end.
[/quote]

You really want to be stuck in that dull environment for the rest of your life?

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Posted

[quote name='xWhiplash' timestamp='1355233398' post='595383556']
For the millionth time, we are talking about a desktop version of the operating system. Why does Microsoft NEED.....I repeat, absolutely NEED to change or else they will fail? Last I checked OS X still had the Dock and the basic functionality remains the same. They did things the right way by making Launchpad optional.

Professional computer use has not changed in the last 20 years, why does Windows FOR THE DESKTOP.....again FOR THE DESKTOP.....need to change?

I will not be programming 8 hours a day with a touch screen, or doing my photoshop/after effects work.

What makes Windows 8 NEED to be changed?
[/quote]

Really it has not changed in 20 years... wtf are you smoking ? 20 years there was absolutely NO dock, there was no taskbar as we know it today. in fact most people operated the computer in DOS command line in 1992.

And why would you use a touch screen on photoshop. my desktop with windows8 operated photoshop and 3DSMAX and all my other tools just fine, and it's just as good or better at all tasks as Windows 7.

Maybe you should go back to a 1992 computer and software to see how little it has changed since then :rolleyes:

[quote name='xWhiplash' timestamp='1355234477' post='595383608']
You are comparing a different product line and ecosystem to command line evolving to GUIs? Okay.....

You guys act as if Microsoft made a Windows 8: Desktop Edition where it was only the desktop environment that the world will end.
[/quote]

Except the start screen works just as well and in many ways better with a keyboard and mouse than touch. and it works better and is more efficient and more organized than the start menu, thus also faster.
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Posted

We've never lived in a world that allowed for so much power and performance in such small devices. It only makes sense we try to shift to this 'tablet' idea of computing. Devices are only going to get more compact/mobile and more efficient/powerful. It's never been done before because it simply wasn't affordable or possible.

With that said, Microsoft sees these trends rising and they also see a large portion of their user base shifting over to tablets. They did what they believe will be best to tackle both losing their user base to tablets and making use of these high power mobile devices. Windows now performs well on a tablet and it performs well on a Desktop.

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Posted

[quote name='HawkMan' timestamp='1355235068' post='595383624']
Really it has not changed in 20 years... wtf are you smoking ? 20 years there was absolutely NO dock, there was no taskbar as we know it today. in fact most people operated the computer in DOS command line in 1992.

And why would you use a touch screen on photoshop. my desktop with windows8 operated photoshop and 3DSMAX and all my other tools just fine, and it's just as good or better at all tasks as Windows 7.

Maybe you should go back to a 1992 computer and software to see how little it has changed since then :rolleyes:



Except the start screen works just as well and in many ways better with a keyboard and mouse than touch. and it works better and is more efficient and more organized than the start menu, thus also faster.
[/quote]

You are talking the OS and software changes. I was talking about the workflows. Yes software has evolved but the basic process to do programming and stuff like that is the same.

[quote]And why would you use a touch screen on photoshop[/quote]

That was my point, I would never use a touch screen 8 hours a day for programming, photoshop, and after effects.

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Posted

[quote name='HawkMan' timestamp='1355235068' post='595383624']
Really it has not changed in 20 years... wtf are you smoking ? 20 years there was absolutely NO dock, there was no taskbar as we know it today. in fact most people operated the computer in DOS command line in 1992.

And why would you use a touch screen on photoshop. my desktop with windows8 operated photoshop and 3DSMAX and all my other tools just fine, and it's just as good or better at all tasks as Windows 7.

Maybe you should go back to a 1992 computer and software to see how little it has changed since then :rolleyes:



Except the start screen works just as well and in many ways better with a keyboard and mouse than touch. and it works better and is more efficient and more organized than the start menu, thus also faster.
[/quote]

I was just about to say, computers have changed A LOT in 20 years. In 1993, we were still using a split OS, it was called Windows 3.1. Hmm, split OS, that sounds familiar... ;)

[quote name='xWhiplash' timestamp='1355235246' post='595383638']
You are talking the OS and software changes. I was talking about the workflows. Yes software has evolved but the basic process to do programming and stuff like that is the same.
[/quote]

Really? So we were using client/server setups 20+ years ago? Talking to each other through Ethernet connections? Working with tablets and smartphones 20 years ago?

Please. We've come a long way in 20 years, and things aren't stopping here. Our "workflows" were no where near being the same as what they are now.

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Posted

[quote name='xWhiplash' timestamp='1355235246' post='595383638']
You are talking the OS and software changes. I was talking about the workflows. Yes software has evolved but the basic process to do programming and stuff like that is the same.



That was my point, I would never use a touch screen 8 hours a day for programming, photoshop, and after effects.
[/quote]
No one is saying you should program or tweak photos on a touchscreen (although later can be done for trivial stuff). Microsoft has taken a stance that they have one OS for both paradigms. As they say for Surface, they are kind of saying for the OS too. A tablet OS that is a great desktop OS and a desktop OS that is a great tablet OS.
Is it perfect? No.
Does the new UI require changes to our workflow? absolutely.
Does that make it worse than Vista/ME/AppleNewton/GoogleWave/AppleTV etc.? A big ****ing NO.

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[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1355235643' post='595383648']
I was just about to say, computers have changed A LOT in 20 years. In 1993, we were still using a split OS, it was called Windows 3.1. Hmm, split OS, that sounds familiar... ;)



Really? So we were using client/server setups 20+ years ago? Talking to each other through Ethernet connections? Working with tablets and smartphones 20 years ago?

Please. We've come a long way in 20 years, and things aren't stopping here. Our "workflows" were no where near being the same as what they are now.
[/quote]

Last I checked I do not do my programming on my smartphone. I do not do client server setups. Talking through ethernet will not make sitting down and typing on the keyboard to program be better. If I had to I could do all my programming and take it on a CD. Again, I am talking about the productive environment.

The same thing with Photoshop. To get as much detail as possible, there is no way I will ever use a touch screen for it. Mouse give me the perfect precision for my job. That has not changed since Photoshop 5. Yes, the tools that were included in the software has changed, but not the basic way I use it.

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Posted

How does windows 8 affect yoru workflow in Photoshop ? having a touchscreen doesn't mean your workflow is affected, and chances are you computer doesn't have a touch screen anyway, so you don't need to worry about it. I'm wondering what the hell your argument here is...

Also on the topic of working with photoshop on a touch screen, I would love to. more specifically a hybrid wacom tablet and touch screen. like MS demonstrated at CES last year. No there's some serious workflow improvement over the old plain mouse/tablet and keyboard.

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[quote name='xWhiplash' timestamp='1355236138' post='595383674']
Last I checked I do not do my programming on my smartphone. I do not do client server setups. Talking through ethernet will not make sitting down and typing on the keyboard to program be better. If I had to I could do all my programming and take it on a CD. Again, I am talking about the productive environment.

The same thing with Photoshop. To get as much detail as possible, there is no way I will ever use a touch screen for it. Mouse give me the perfect precision for my job. That has not changed since Photoshop 5. Yes, the tools that were included in the software has changed, but not the basic way I use it.
[/quote]

Good for you. Still doesn't change the fact that computing HAS changed over the last 20 years, contrary to your "claims".

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Posted

[quote name='xWhiplash' timestamp='1355236138' post='595383674']


The same thing with Photoshop. To get as much detail as possible, there is no way I will ever use a touch screen for it. Mouse give me the perfect precision for my job. That has not changed since Photoshop 5. Yes, the tools that were included in the software has changed, but not the basic way I use it.
[/quote]

Are you doing pixel art like in the early 90(from where you think computing hasn't changed) or actually work in photoshop. because most photoshop work does not need precision. in fact flow is far more important than precision. This is why tablets are great for photoshop, but I don't use a tablet for 3DS MAX, for max, I need precision so I use a mouse. Though for organic modeling precision is out the window again.

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[quote name='xWhiplash' timestamp='1355236138' post='595383674']
The same thing with Photoshop. To get as much detail as possible, there is no way I will ever use a touch screen for it. Mouse give me the perfect precision for my job. That has not changed since Photoshop 5. Yes, the tools that were included in the software has changed, but not the basic way I use it.
[/quote]

[quote name='HawkMan' timestamp='1355238524' post='595383762']
Are you doing pixel art like in the early 90(from where you think computing hasn't changed) or actually work in photoshop. because most photoshop work does not need precision. in fact flow is far more important than precision. This is why tablets are great for photoshop, but I don't use a tablet for 3DS MAX, for max, I need precision so I use a mouse. Though for organic modeling precision is out the window again.
[/quote]

[color=#222222]Frankly, you

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Posted

So....because I am using my mouse I am doing pixel art? I do my job better with a mouse than with a tablet. I have a $400 WACOM tablet that I tried to use for a month but never could. I do MUCH better with my mouse. I do not need to defend my abilities, but you do know people do work differently than you right? If we all did our jobs exactly the same, that would be a weird world to live in....

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Posted

[quote name='Kaedrin' timestamp='1355239735' post='595383820']
[color=#222222]Frankly, you

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[quote name='HawkMan' timestamp='1355240510' post='595383842']
You do of course realize that all the pro windows 8 tablets, as well as the old Windows vista and 7 tablets PC's used pretty much that exact digitizer for the screen... only on the never models they have a touch layer in addition to it.
[/quote]

[color=#222222]From what I've read, none of the tablet styluses have comparable pressure sensitivity resolution or comparable pen functionality. If you know of a tablet that contains a stylus on par with a Wacom and supports 1024-bit pressure sensitivity on the pen tip and eraser, by all means point it out.[/color]

[color=#222222]-Edit[/color]
[color=#222222][color=#222222]On that note, it looks like Wacom may resolve the issue on their own since they release their own pens for third party tablets. If one of their stylus' can work on one of the newer high end tablets coming out soon, I'll probably be happy even if the tablet doesn't include a great one. If one of their 2048-bit pressure pens will work, heaven.[/color][/color]

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Posted

[quote name='HawkMan' timestamp='1355240510' post='595383842']
You do of course realize that all the pro windows 8 tablets, as well as the old Windows vista and 7 tablets PC's used pretty much that exact digitizer for the screen... only on the never models they have a touch layer in addition to it.



So all you basically do in PS then is touch up red eyes and adjust colors ? if you prefer a mouse over a tablet, then you certainly don't do any serious touch up jobs or corrections. the only job a mouse would be "better" for is simple web graphics, in which case photoshop isn't the tool of choice anyway, or Vector art, where again, photoshop isn't the tool of choice, it does the jobs but, there are better options.
[/quote]

So nobody....NOBODY can use a mouse with Photoshop UNLESS they are ONLY....ONLY doing web art, red eye and color adjustment? Wow, I must be really good if I can do what I do with my mouse...

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[quote name='xWhiplash' timestamp='1355244857' post='595384032']
So nobody....NOBODY can use a mouse with Photoshop UNLESS they are ONLY....ONLY doing web art, red eye and color adjustment? Wow, I must be really good if I can do what I do with my mouse...
[/quote]

He is right though. There are tools in both Paint.Net and Photoshop that eliminate the need for precision as you describe. The Magic Wand, for example. I know when I work in both, I don't need to be accurate down to the pixel.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnyna2PlcRw&feature=player_embedded[/media]

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[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1355247152' post='595384100']
He is right though. There are tools in both Paint.Net and Photoshop that eliminate the need for precision as you describe. The Magic Wand, for example. I know when I work in both, I don't need to be accurate down to the pixel.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnyna2PlcRw&feature=player_embedded[/media]
[/quote]

Then explain to me how I am able to do my job with a mouse, if he is right that the ONLY thing I can do is red eye and color corrections? Did I say I need to be accurate down to the pixel? You can make a design flow nice, but it still needs to look nice too. So yes, accuracy still matters.

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