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Chief Marketing and Financial Officer for Windows opened up the Credit Suisse Annual Tech conference with the news that Windows 8 has sold 40 million licenses so far.

Can we stop the foolish debate of it being a flop now? thanks! would appreciate getting back to talking about fun stuff!
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[quote name='Demz' timestamp='1355101718' post='595380174']
windows8 will remain a flop. even i havent been tempted to buy it, problem with Windows8 atm AFAICT is there still aint a lot of programs that work correctly with 8, take a look at Firefox, there still in the middle of making that fully work under 8.

those figures might be a lot of windows8 licenses sold but how many people have gone back to windows7 if not back to XP from the disaster of 8? . M$$$ dont say that do they.
[/quote]

Horsefeathers.

Firefox (even Pale Moon and Waterfox) works just as well in Windows 8 (or even Windows Server 2012, which i dual-boot with 8 Pro) as they do in Windows 7. You are confusing the ModernUI version of FIrefox with the desktop browser you are used to. The bigger issue (with all three) is the interact5ion between the Plugin Container and Adobe Flash - a crash in either can be enough to bring the whole browser down around my ears (which is rather embarrassing when that happens on a server OS) and that is NOT OS-specific. If anything, any of the three browsers is more stable (desktop mode vs. desktop mode) on 8 (or 2012) vs. 7.
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[quote name='PGHammer' timestamp='1355100066' post='595380134']
Actually, folders first appeared in Windows 1.1/286 - in File Manager; they have remained in Windows ever since. (It was File Manager that Windows Explorer would replace; the desktop - a modified version of the Workplace Shell from the IBM/Microsoft OS/2 joint venture (which would give way to OS/2 (IBM only), LAN Manager and finally Windows NT (Microsoft)) would replace Program Manager - in both Windows 3.x and Windows NT 3.x. From the Strange But True Factoid Department: Both Windows 95 and Windows NT Workstation 4.0 retained Program Manager and File Manager for backward-compatibility reasons - and one early piece of Windows 95 freeware - it actually launched simultaneously with Windows 95 - was the Workplace Shell for Win32 - an alternative to the desktop/Windows Explorer combo written by a group of IBM Austin employees. Therefore, even in the early days of Windows 9x, the Start menu/desktop/Explorer troika was FAR from universally loved.)
[/quote]
I meant Folder the term/name not Folder the concept.

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[quote name='LogicalApex' timestamp='1354731455' post='595370492']
There is the whole debate on whether or not people need to shutdown at all, but the reality is they should be allowed to do whatever they want easily. The shutdown/sleep/hibernation option should have been placed on the charms bar directly and not buried.
[/quote]

You realize that this same logic ("people should be allowed to do whatever they want easily, therefore option X shouldn't be 'buried') could be applied to argue that literally everything a user might want to do should be a top-level charm. e.g., I use Notepad a lot, therefore I should be allowed to use it more easily than having to go to the start screen and click a tile, therefore there should be a Notepad charm. The reality is that not everything can be made equally prominent, so at some point you have to make a design decision about which functions should be prioritized over others in the UI. They decided that shutdown/restart should be more prominent than, say, checking for updates - hence it's at the top level of the Settings flyout and not 'buried' under Change PC settings - but not as prominent as, say, searching the current app or going back to Start. If you disagree with this, it's because you think they should treat shutdown/restart as more important than they do, or maybe you just don't think Settings is a good place for it, but it can't be because of a generic argument that 'burying' functions is always bad.

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I have never been more annoyed by an OS as I have been by windows 8. I would recommend Windows ME before this. Windows 8 is beta at best showing a complete lack of regard for design and workflow with a poor attempt to make two paradigms work at the same time
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[quote name='seta-san' timestamp='1355116687' post='595380552']
I have never been more annoyed by an OS as I have been by windows 8. I would recommend Windows ME before this. Windows 8 is beta at best showing a complete lack of regard for design and workflow with a poor attempt to make two paradigms work at the same time
[/quote]

so in other words ypur just mad they took away your precious start menu..
and that you are a crotchety old man resistant to change and you were "doing it wrong"
and just simply didn't try hard enough to like the newer system.
You should have been taking a class on evenings and weekends learning keyboard combo's...
you should also be reminded that you are in an extreme vocal minority and there for
your opinion his little value.. besides the only opinion that matters is Microsoft's..
they know what is best for you and it is bad business to listen to their customers
*IF they do not like something you did..
I should probably just tell you that no one is forcing you to upgrade to windows 8
so don't use it ! ..even if they discontinue support to what you are using and
people here at neowin on other topics are making fun of you for using an older OS
and blaming you for doing damage to the safety security and reliability of the internet.
so sorry but your not allowed to be anoyed ;)

oh and on topic ?
M$ could say anything they want what does that really prove ?
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[quote name='I am Not PCyr' timestamp='1355117573' post='595380566']
so in other words ypur just mad they took away your precious start menu..
and that you are a crotchety old man resistant to change and you were "doing it wrong"
and just simply didn't try hard enough to like the newer system.
You should have been taking a class on evenings and weekends learning keyboard combo's...
you should also be reminded that you are in an extreme vocal minority and there for
your opinion his little value.. besides the only opinion that matters is Microsoft's..
they know what is best for you and it is bad business to listen to their customers
*IF they do not like something you did..
I should probably just tell you that no one is forcing you to upgrade to windows 8
so don't use it ! ..even if they discontinue support to what you are using and
people here at neowin on other topics are making fun of you for using an older OS
and blaming you for doing damage to the safety security and reliability of the internet.
so sorry but your not allowed to be anoyed ;)

oh and on topic ?
M$ could say anything they want what does that really prove ?
[/quote]

it's not just the start screen. it's metro apps in general. The messaging map give you absolutely no option to turn it off. it's on perpetually and everytime someone sends me a message it give me no way to stop the annoying pop-up box on the desktop informing me I have a message. Trying to uninstall that particular app uninstalls 3 or 4 others including the calendar and mail, and people apps. This is a product that Microsoft should truly be sorry for. This is the 'batman and robin' of OS's. I get why they tried to do and I think that's cool. It was executed so horribly

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Funny, I don't get any nag or stuff from my messaging app, only apps I get nags from is messenger and Skype. Both of which I turned off most of the notifications on.

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[quote name='seta-san' timestamp='1355119259' post='595380588']
it's not just the start screen. it's metro apps in general. The messaging map give you absolutely no option to turn it off. it's on perpetually and everytime someone sends me a message it give me no way to stop the annoying pop-up box on the desktop informing me I have a message. Trying to uninstall that particular app uninstalls 3 or 4 others including the calendar and mail, and people apps. This is a product that Microsoft should truly be sorry for. This is the 'batman and robin' of OS's. I get why they tried to do and I think that's cool. It was executed so horribly
[/quote]

You can actually turn notifications on/off for any new-style app including Messaging, or turn them on/off globally, in PC settings -> Notifications. You can also temporarily turn them off for a set amount of time via settings charm -> Notifications. Additionally any app can be prevented from running in the background via settings charm -> Permissions

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[quote name='seta-san' timestamp='1355119259' post='595380588']
it's not just the start screen. it's metro apps in general. [b][color=#ff8c00]The messaging map give you absolutely no option to turn it off. it's on perpetually and everytime someone sends me a message it give me no way to stop the annoying pop-up box on the desktop informing me I have a message.[/color][/b] Trying to uninstall that particular app uninstalls 3 or 4 others including the calendar and mail, and people apps. This is a product that Microsoft should truly be sorry for. This is the 'batman and robin' of OS's. I get why they tried to do and I think that's cool. It was executed so horribly
[/quote]

Actually, there's a couple ways to disable notifications from the Messaging app.

They're listed right under "PC Settings, and "Notifications". Makes sense right?

[img]http://i.imgur.com/GVpy3.png[/img]



Also, you're wrong about not being able to turn it off. You can also disable the Messaging app right inside the app itself.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/8Gd1x.png[/img]

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[quote name='Kyang' timestamp='1355122365' post='595380604']
Actually, there's a couple ways to disable notifications from the Messaging app.

They're listed right under "PC Settings, and "Notifications". Makes sense right?

[img]http://i.imgur.com/GVpy3.png[/img]



Also, you're wrong about not being able to turn it off. You can also disable the Messaging app right inside the app itself.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/8Gd1x.png[/img]
[/quote]

thanks for the tip.. but isn't that just a tad cryptic? Why isn't the setting attached to the program? Why is it in the freaking control panel? As I said. Poor design, Poor Workflow.
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You can change it from within the app too under Settings -> Permissions, same applies to any app that pops up notifications.

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[quote name='contextfree' timestamp='1355129718' post='595380680']
You can change it from within the app too under Settings -> Permissions, same applies to any app that pops up notifications.
[/quote]

yeah. I just realized that too. I'd never looked in the permissions tab because I thought it was the same as every other OS... that it would be permissions for file access and execution for different users and groups. it's just yet another example of poor execution. The word "permissions" have been used in OSs in one way for decades and suddenly we're using it in a completely different way which should be handles in the normal settings

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What? Putting an option to turn off notifications in the notifications sections of the pc settings is cryptic?

Do you also find it cryptic that you have to go to My Computer to see your drives?
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[quote name='seta-san' timestamp='1355129031' post='595380676']
thanks for the tip.. but isn't that just a tad cryptic? Why isn't the setting attached to the program? Why is it in the freaking control panel? As I said. Poor design, Poor Workflow.
[/quote]

You're welcome.

I think it makes sense to manage notifications from the system using the system's control panel. I also think it's not so much poor workflow as it is [i]predictable[/i] workflow, which is actually pretty good, unless one considers predictability in a workflow bad (And I acknowledge, some might think so for whatever reason.). Now the user can manage the notifications of any application from one place, no matter the app.

This, as opposed to navigating the different settings layouts of different apps. Doing it that way did work before, but I think this is better.

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[quote name='seta-san' timestamp='1355132967' post='595380740']
yeah. I just realized that too. I'd never looked in the permissions tab because I thought it was the same as every other OS... that it would be permissions for file access and execution for different users and groups. it's just yet another example of poor execution. The word "permissions" have been used in OSs in one way for decades and suddenly we're using it in a completely different way which should be handles in the normal settings
[/quote]

It seems that you are just angry at MS from changing things up. You have to re learn how to do certain things and you are not happy about that.
Everything you complained about in the last few posts are all things that were possible in the OS but you just do them differently then in Win7.

So it all comes down again to not liking change.

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[quote name='Stoffel' timestamp='1355159608' post='595381426']


So it all comes down again to not liking change.
[/quote]

Change is one thing, screwing with what has worked for years just to grab a slice of the mobile market, is another. Choice of whether to use that god damn awful UI would have been preferable, and more widely accepted by the good majority of Desktop users. There would have been no harm in doing so, pleasing both types of user, those who love it, and those who hate it, instead of ramming it down peoples throats regardless. After all, its really two UI's miss-mashed together to form a monster that Frankenstein would have been well proud of anyway.
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[quote name='scaramonga' timestamp='1355184567' post='595382490']
Change is one thing, screwing with what has worked for years just to grab a slice of the mobile market, is another. Choice of whether to use that god damn awful UI would have been preferable, and more widely accepted by the good majority of Desktop users. There would have been no harm in doing so, pleasing both types of user, those who love it, and those who hate it, instead of ramming it down peoples throats regardless. After all, its really two UI's miss-mashed together to form a monster that Frankenstein would have been well proud of anyway.
[/quote]

well said..

And i wanna add that i think if they gave the UI option it would have been smart because
it would have provided a transition to what we all must agree is drastic and major change(s)
if you think about that with out just writing me off and ignoring me, i think people would see
the oportunity with the idea that many people could transition at their own pace and for Microsoft's point of view
they would have the product in peoples hands AND still have a sale with the customer !
I could dig deeper into that concept but ir REALLY should go with out saying..

I usually see (@neowin) comments like if you don't like it (Win 8) then shut up and jump off a bridge etc
and i see some guys here making excuses as to why any and all decisions on a product should be left to the company
because they know whats best and its bad business to give customers what they want in the long run..
I want to remind the so called "vocal majority" that M$ is not in a position to tell their cutomer base
that if they don't like it then shut up and quit complaining and don't use it. They are a business trying to sell a product
and lets face it people, most of us are ALREADY existing customers so this boils down to convincing existing users
corp or private they should upgrade. Sadly M$ has little competition other wise there would be some other companies
out there with a massive grin on their face ready willing and able to pounch on this oportunity..Its basic business sense..
if a company x won't give people what they want then company z will step in (gladly) and give peopel what they want and make $

I can't fathom the endless stream of bull that roll out of fanboys and cheerleaders mouths.. 99.9% seems like insane excuses
desperatly grasping at straws to defend windows 8 at any cost, like their lives depend on it or something.
Like a PR dept. trying to make a train accident that killed people seem not so bad ! and yeah i used that analogy for a reaon..
Windows 8 is a train wreck !

This story and just about anything we here about windows 8 is a dramatised load of propaganda..
The sales are close enough thta the difference means nothing.. there is no huge massive difference.
Also things like the many people that are always claiming WIndows 8 is way faster (never stated with facts of any kind)
And lets face it at best WIndows 8 is aprox the same as windows 7 in speed terms in various factors
and when Windows 8 IS faster is not by much, proving all the people wrong who say its some revolutionary dramatic difference.
Once again people say crap like that because they WANT to push their agenda and reality will not get in there way !

Its not about running around the net spreading windows 8 hate
it's about keeping things real !
It bothers me when people spread misinformation on the net regardless of the topic.
So yeah i dislike windows 8 but i have nothing against people that want to use it.
That is not what peeople are always trying to draw people like me into.
The core concept isn't that bad an idea and for many people the concept is an ideal solution for improvement etc.
But to make a sweeping major change and then force it on everyone is dumb,
EVEN if the new changes were not ugly or a functionality nightmare.

We can try and supress the complainers or over shadow them with stories like this but it won't change what is.
Reality is what it is and I see a TON of people having a lot of complaints with this "high" selling OS.
Too many for symantecs to really mean anything. the writing is on the wall and cheerleaders or fanboys are gonna
have to face facts eventually whether they like it not..
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[quote name='I am Not PCyr' timestamp='1355195898' post='595382904']
well said..

And i wanna add that i think if they gave the UI option it would have been smart because
it would have provided a transition to what we all must agree is drastic and major change(s)
if you think about that with out just writing me off and ignoring me, i think people would see
the oportunity with the idea that many people could transition at their own pace and for Microsoft's point of view
they would have the product in peoples hands AND still have a sale with the customer !
I could dig deeper into that concept but ir REALLY should go with out saying..

I usually see (@neowin) comments like if you don't like it (Win 8) then shut up and jump off a bridge etc
and i see some guys here making excuses as to why any and all decisions on a product should be left to the company
because they know whats best and its bad business to give customers what they want in the long run..
I want to remind the so called "vocal majority" that M$ is not in a position to tell their cutomer base
that if they don't like it then shut up and quit complaining and don't use it. They are a business trying to sell a product
and lets face it people, most of us are ALREADY existing customers so this boils down to convincing existing users
corp or private they should upgrade. Sadly M$ has little competition other wise there would be some other companies
out there with a massive grin on their face ready willing and able to pounch on this oportunity..Its basic business sense..
if a company x won't give people what they want then company z will step in (gladly) and give peopel what they want and make $

I can't fathom the endless stream of bull that roll out of fanboys and cheerleaders mouths.. 99.9% seems like insane excuses
desperatly grasping at straws to defend windows 8 at any cost, like their lives depend on it or something.
Like a PR dept. trying to make a train accident that killed people seem not so bad ! and yeah i used that analogy for a reaon..
Windows 8 is a train wreck !

This story and just about anything we here about windows 8 is a dramatised load of propaganda..
The sales are close enough thta the difference means nothing.. there is no huge massive difference.
Also things like the many people that are always claiming WIndows 8 is way faster (never stated with facts of any kind)
And lets face it at best WIndows 8 is aprox the same as windows 7 in speed terms in various factors
and when Windows 8 IS faster is not by much, proving all the people wrong who say its some revolutionary dramatic difference.
Once again people say crap like that because they WANT to push their agenda and reality will not get in there way !

Its not about running around the net spreading windows 8 hate
it's about keeping things real !
It bothers me when people spread misinformation on the net regardless of the topic.
So yeah i dislike windows 8 but i have nothing against people that want to use it.
That is not what peeople are always trying to draw people like me into.
The core concept isn't that bad an idea and for many people the concept is an ideal solution for improvement etc.
But to make a sweeping major change and then force it on everyone is dumb,
EVEN if the new changes were not ugly or a functionality nightmare.

We can try and supress the complainers or over shadow them with stories like this but it won't change what is.
Reality is what it is and I see a TON of people having a lot of complaints with this "high" selling OS.
Too many for symantecs to really mean anything. the writing is on the wall and cheerleaders or fanboys are gonna
have to face facts eventually whether they like it not..
[/quote]

What the hell you just said, I have no clue, but not one ounce of it was based off any sort of facts whatsoever.

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[quote name='I am Not PCyr' timestamp='1355195898' post='595382904']
well said..

And i wanna add that i think if they gave the UI option it would have been smart because
it would have provided a transition to what we all must agree is drastic and major change(s)
if you think about that with out just writing me off and ignoring me, i think people would see
the oportunity with the idea that many people could transition at their own pace and for Microsoft's point of view
they would have the product in peoples hands AND still have a sale with the customer !
I could dig deeper into that concept but ir REALLY should go with out saying..

I usually see (@neowin) comments like if you don't like it (Win 8) then shut up and jump off a bridge etc
and i see some guys here making excuses as to why any and all decisions on a product should be left to the company
because they know whats best and its bad business to give customers what they want in the long run..
I want to remind the so called "vocal majority" that M$ is not in a position to tell their cutomer base
that if they don't like it then shut up and quit complaining and don't use it. They are a business trying to sell a product
and lets face it people, most of us are ALREADY existing customers so this boils down to convincing existing users
corp or private they should upgrade. Sadly M$ has little competition other wise there would be some other companies
out there with a massive grin on their face ready willing and able to pounch on this oportunity..Its basic business sense..
if a company x won't give people what they want then company z will step in (gladly) and give peopel what they want and make $

I can't fathom the endless stream of bull that roll out of fanboys and cheerleaders mouths.. 99.9% seems like insane excuses
desperatly grasping at straws to defend windows 8 at any cost, like their lives depend on it or something.
Like a PR dept. trying to make a train accident that killed people seem not so bad ! and yeah i used that analogy for a reaon..
Windows 8 is a train wreck !

This story and just about anything we here about windows 8 is a dramatised load of propaganda..
The sales are close enough thta the difference means nothing.. there is no huge massive difference.
Also things like the many people that are always claiming WIndows 8 is way faster (never stated with facts of any kind)
And lets face it at best WIndows 8 is aprox the same as windows 7 in speed terms in various factors
and when Windows 8 IS faster is not by much, proving all the people wrong who say its some revolutionary dramatic difference.
Once again people say crap like that because they WANT to push their agenda and reality will not get in there way !

Its not about running around the net spreading windows 8 hate
it's about keeping things real !
It bothers me when people spread misinformation on the net regardless of the topic.
So yeah i dislike windows 8 but i have nothing against people that want to use it.
That is not what peeople are always trying to draw people like me into.
The core concept isn't that bad an idea and for many people the concept is an ideal solution for improvement etc.
But to make a sweeping major change and then force it on everyone is dumb,
EVEN if the new changes were not ugly or a functionality nightmare.

We can try and supress the complainers or over shadow them with stories like this but it won't change what is.
Reality is what it is and I see a TON of people having a lot of complaints with this "high" selling OS.
Too many for symantecs to really mean anything. the writing is on the wall and cheerleaders or fanboys are gonna
have to face facts eventually whether they like it not..
[/quote]

There's a big problem with that; if Microsoft does NOT change, or accept that they may well HAVE to change how Windows works, then they may well be consigning themselves, and Windows, to becoming a niche OS.

You (and the rest of the detractors) are basically betting (and worse, demanding that Microsoft bet) that they can stay unchanged for eternity. Has ANY company managed to make such a bet work - in any field?

IBM tried to make such a bet with OS/2 - and failed.

They tried to make a similar bet with the mainframe - and failed.

Both Amdahl and Digital Equipment Corporation thought they could stay the same forever - neither exists today.

You can't stay on the royal barge on the Egyptian River for eternity; reality has a nasty hapbit of swamping the barge and drowning the oarspeople.

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PG, you forgot Kodak. ;) They didn't change either, and now they're basically dead too.
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[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1355197835' post='595382930']
PG, you forgot Kodak. ;) They didn't change either, and now they're basically dead too.
[/quote]

and I'm stuck with one of thier pain-in-the-ass printers. :( EVIL EVIL EVIL KODAK!

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:D im using windows 8 and i love it ..for those who are complaining they just dont know how to use it ..it does take days to get used to ir ..once you get full control of it ..you will love it .thats all i can say..and some people says it takes extra clicks to get this done like opening programs or settings :shifty: ..in my opinion that statement is so wrong..

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[quote name='scaramonga' timestamp='1355184567' post='595382490']
Change is one thing, screwing with what has worked for years just to grab a slice of the mobile market, is another. Choice of whether to use that god damn awful UI would have been preferable, and more widely accepted by the good majority of Desktop users. There would have been no harm in doing so, pleasing both types of user, those who love it, and those who hate it, instead of ramming it down peoples throats regardless. After all, its really two UI's miss-mashed together to form a monster that Frankenstein would have been well proud of anyway.
[/quote]
What worked for years? There was no system-wide notification feature in Windows 8 before this. In this particular case, it was just usual complaining about something the user didn't know could be done in a certain consistent manner.
App > settings > permission to show notification
System > settings > permissions for all apps
doesn't get any simpler than that.

On a more general term, nothing has changed for desktop users except the start menu, which I could easily adjust to within few mins without using any 3rd party stuff.

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[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1355197835' post='595382930']
PG, you forgot Kodak. ;) They didn't change either, and now they're basically dead too.
[/quote]

Kodak should have been the most OBVIOUS example of what happens when a company ignores a trend.

It was competition in FILM photography that may have been obvious (in particular, from Fuji) - however, it was inexpensive DIGITAL photography that did Kodak in. (It's also largely in the process of screwing over Fuji's Film Products Division as well.)

Kodak is a company I deliberately did not refer to - because we all SHOULD have seen what happened to Kodak. (Amazingly - but far from amusingly - nobody did, let alone the screwing repeat itself with Polaroid and - eventually - Fuji itself. Fuji is about to become as irrelevant to photography as Kodak.).

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[quote name='BajiRav' timestamp='1355202688' post='595383026']
What worked for years? There was no system-wide notification feature in Windows 8 before this. In this particular case, it was just usual complaining about something the user didn't know could be done in a certain consistent manner.
App > settings > permission to show notification
System > settings > permissions for all apps
doesn't get any simpler than that.

On a more general term, nothing has changed for desktop users except the start menu, which I could easily adjust to within few mins without using any 3rd party stuff.
[/quote]

I made THAT point way back during the Consumer Preview.

The Start menu itself started to become irrelevant (to me, at least) way back in Windows Vista, and largely because of two features that are still in Windows 8 today (though the Start menu is not) - Taskbar pinning and the Superbar.

I came to the PC from (surprise!) mainframes, and during 1987/1988; for me, PCs themselves were actually a "plan B". Segue to a mere ten years later; while mainframes are still around, they actually were a smaler percentage of computing than even Windows. I had also changed word processing programs (again, by necessity) from WordPerfect (which I first discovered on IBM mainframes - which was, in fact where it began!) to Microsoft Word (beginning with Word for Windows 95 - NOT Word for Windows 6.0), due to, amazingly, better backward-compatibility with WordPerfect files than WordPerfect for Windows 6.0a. It was all the more surprising since I was very much in computing - in fact, I was, among other things, tutoring home users in using WordPerfect - due to several rather nasty issues Microsoft was having with Word 5.0 for DOS. WordPerfect's response was WordPerfect 5.1 - arguably THE best MS-DOS-based word-processor ever written. Between WordPerfect's seemingly insurmountable lead (WordPerfect 5.1 had won their third consecutive Editor's Choice from PC Magazine in the MS-DOS word processor category) and the flubbed Word, it looked so bad that Microsoft was getting a lot of requests to leave word-processing software altogether (primarily due to the issues with Word). The worm turned rather quickly - in 1995 it was WordPerfect - then in the middle of a friendly acquisition by Noveil - that would stub its foot; the victim was WordPerfect for Windows. The nightmare (for WordPerfect) was that much-vaunted backward-compatibility - basically the issue that had been the strength of WordPerfect for DOS - was badly broken. Microsoft, on the other hand, followed up the flubbed Word 5 for DOS and bugfix 5.5 for DOS with Word for Windows (3.x) 6.0/Office Standard (4.2)/Office Professional (4.3) in late 1994 and immediately thereafter got the first beta out the door of Office for Windows 95. Word for Windows 6.0 (quickly shortened to WinWord) became a smash success in offices running Windows 3.x - what was horrifying for WordPerfect fanatics (especially in law firms - WordPerfect was still strong there largely to their excellence in super-long document types, such as legalese) was that WinWord95 was even better - it was quite capable of swallowing WordPerfect documents whole - legalese and all - without so much as a burp, THEN spitting out documents in any number of formats without a quibble - something WordPerfect itself could not do. It became the beginning of a LONG nightmare for WordPerfect (in then the hands of Novell, and later after the transfer to the Great White North and Corel Corporation) which continues today.

Could THAT very well be the reason why there remains a groundswell of insistence that Microsoft do nothing - because of their nasty habit of not merely snatching victory from the jaws of seemingly utter defeat, but using it to smash defeat upside the noggin more successfully than even James Tiberius Kirk in the "Star Trek" TV series?
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