412 replies to this topic 6 votes

[Order_66]

ozzy76, on 04 December 2012 - 01:17, said:

Which is why sales rarely tell the full story.

And if you get the story from microsoft then you haven't got the full story either lol

[dvb2000]

Euphoria, on 27 November 2012 - 21:30, said:

It's a failure just as Vista was.... go back and read the first threads when Vista came out... deja vu...
It took MS almost a year to actually acknowledge that Vista flopped.
I am already seeing Windows 9 or whatever is called coming up next year to correct the mistake that this OS is...

+1

Those 40 million "licenses" for which Microsoft is claiming "sales" are mostly to OEM's apparently. So just sitting in their accounting systems, until the manufacturers actually build the hardware.

[Order_66]

dvb2000, on 04 December 2012 - 05:56, said:

+1

Those 40 million "licenses" for which Microsoft is claiming "sales" are mostly to OEM's apparently. So just sitting in their accounting systems, until the manufacturers actually build the hardware.

Indeed, 40 million people didn't rush out and buy windows 8, I can see 40 million OEM sales that are still sitting on the shelves though, just like with Vista.
The original 4 million upgrades claim was somewhat believable since they were selling 8 for so cheap, but the 40 million claim is completely absurd, of the 4 best buy stores near me the windows 8 machines are simply not moving at all.

The microcenter store near me carries a few windows 8 machines, they have not sold one single solitary machine with windows 8 yet, lol this info came directly from the store manager last friday when I stopped in for my usual rounds, he did say however that some of the other stores have sold a few but he didn't give any numbers.

[Wakers]

But no one is buying prebuilt systems at the moment regardless of OS. There's no value in it. Most of the prebuilt specs are completely random and make no sense. Anyone with half an idea about computers wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. Thankfully, the number of people who are aware of the tripe that is sold is increasing month by month.

[Shane Nokes]

...and yet somehow the haters crawl out of the woodwork with their speculation and try to pass it off as fact...

I love kicking back and reading threads like this where an actual number (which is accounted for in the same way that Win7 and Vista were accounted for) is presented and they still argue against it...

So tell us again how Windows 7 failed using the same metrics...I'd love to hear that as my bedtime story tonight.

[Dot Matrix]

So, if Windows 8 is a failure, for not "selling" all 40 million of those licenses, I guess this means Windows 7 is a failure too?

[PGHammer]

xWhiplash, on 03 December 2012 - 14:16, said:

No, I am saying that to Dot. When somebody complains like I do, he has said MANY MANY times "Windows 8 is used JUST LIKE Windows 7". And I am saying to everyone else that says "Give it a month and you will LOVE it".

I am sorry I am trying to use my computer the same way I have been for more than a decade. Unless Microsoft brings some things back, most businesses will feel the same. I already know a few businesses that have said that to me.

However, except for Search, Dot is actually right (when it comes to desktop applications and games, for the most part) other than differences brought upon entirely by the lack of Start menu (all of which can be end-run, even in Windows 7), desktop applications (those Win32 applications we're used to) work exactly the same between Windows 7/8/2008/2012. (Why am I throwing Server 2012 in the mix? Because (as was the case with all server versions of Windows back to Server 2003), there is a subset of those users leveraging features of the server side of Windows for use as a workstation/desktop OS - heck, you can add me to the list; I'm leveraging Hyper-V, which in Server 2012 I can actually use due to SLAT not being required.)

And you're right on enterprises - most would be in fact HORRIBLY loath to change how they do things - the enterprise is, in fact, the last bastion of conservatism (where it is acceptable).

However (and I want you to answer this honestly) how well is Search leveraged by *desktop* applications in Windows 7? Or, more to the point, how well is Search leveraged by Windows 7 itself?

The answer to both is rather simple - it isn't. At all. You have to use the Mark I Mod 0 human eyeball - the SAME method used since Windows 2000 (and that is despite the inclusion of Index Server as part of the OS core since). In fact, Windows 2000 Professional leveraged Search better than ANY version of Windows since (until Windows 8). That is, to put it bluntly, embarrassing. Oh, you CAN use the Runbox method (it premiered in Windows 2000 Professional, in fact), and it still works in every OS since (yes - even Windows 8 and WindowsRT support this method); however, how intuitive is it for even the average technical user?

THe reason it ISN'T leveraged well is because despite the (seemingly-major/actually-minor) UI changes since Windows NT 4.0, Windows since has largely been a baby-steps OS as far as changes have went in how it's used. It changed so little as to basically have not changed at all. Nobody really wanted it to change - not consumers, and especially not enterprises; therefore, it largely didn't.

That was why tablets, slates, Android, and iOS caught Windows (and Microsoft) napping. Neither Android or iOS is wedded to any of the paradigm that Windows (or even OS X) is. It is the desktrop paradigm *itself* that is under assault; Windows, being the biggest representative OF that paradigm, is therefore the largest target. Microsoft has two choices - it can adapt Windows itself to the new paradigm, or become a niche. (The operating system category is still Darwinian - "survival of the fittest" - and those of us with any medium-term history supporting any OS - and this is especially true of Windows - know it; adapt or find yourself covered in butter and syrup.)

I understand the desire to right what is basically a rearguard action - Windows users aren't the only ones doing so. (Look at the OS X forums - here on Neowin and elsewhere; they are by and large doing the same thing.) I'm NOT saying surrender your public position; just get yourself a plan B in case your plan A fails.

[xWhiplash]

PGHammer, on 05 December 2012 - 04:46, said:

However, except for Search, Dot is actually right (when it comes to desktop applications and games, for the most part) other than differences brought upon entirely by the lack of Start menu (all of which can be end-run, even in Windows 7), desktop applications (those Win32 applications we're used to) work exactly the same between Windows 7/8/2008/2012. (Why am I throwing Server 2012 in the mix? Because (as was the case with all server versions of Windows back to Server 2003), there is a subset of those users leveraging features of the server side of Windows for use as a workstation/desktop OS - heck, you can add me to the list; I'm leveraging Hyper-V, which in Server 2012 I can actually use due to SLAT not being required.)

And you're right on enterprises - most would be in fact HORRIBLY loath to change how they do things - the enterprise is, in fact, the last bastion of conservatism (where it is acceptable).

However (and I want you to answer this honestly) how well is Search leveraged by *desktop* applications in Windows 7? Or, more to the point, how well is Search leveraged by Windows 7 itself?

The answer to both is rather simple - it isn't. At all. You have to use the Mark I Mod 0 human eyeball - the SAME method used since Windows 2000 (and that is despite the inclusion of Index Server as part of the OS core since). In fact, Windows 2000 Professional leveraged Search better than ANY version of Windows since (until Windows 8). That is, to put it bluntly, embarrassing. Oh, you CAN use the Runbox method (it premiered in Windows 2000 Professional, in fact), and it still works in every OS since (yes - even Windows 8 and WindowsRT support this method); however, how intuitive is it for even the average technical user?

THe reason it ISN'T leveraged well is because despite the (seemingly-major/actually-minor) UI changes since Windows NT 4.0, Windows since has largely been a baby-steps OS as far as changes have went in how it's used. It changed so little as to basically have not changed at all. Nobody really wanted it to change - not consumers, and especially not enterprises; therefore, it largely didn't.

That was why tablets, slates, Android, and iOS caught Windows (and Microsoft) napping. Neither Android or iOS is wedded to any of the paradigm that Windows (or even OS X) is. It is the desktrop paradigm *itself* that is under assault; Windows, being the biggest representative OF that paradigm, is therefore the largest target. Microsoft has two choices - it can adapt Windows itself to the new paradigm, or become a niche. (The operating system category is still Darwinian - "survival of the fittest" - and those of us with any medium-term history supporting any OS - and this is especially true of Windows - know it; adapt or find yourself covered in butter and syrup.)

I understand the desire to right what is basically a rearguard action - Windows users aren't the only ones doing so. (Look at the OS X forums - here on Neowin and elsewhere; they are by and large doing the same thing.) I'm NOT saying surrender your public position; just get yourself a plan B in case your plan A fails.

It is not just about search. The fact that I need to change my workflow when using the Adobe products that I use the cool feature to detach the dialogs, means desktops apps DO NOT operate the EXACT SAME WAY as in Windows 7. Or was the charms and app switcher hot corners in Windows 7 as well?

I am not alone on this. I talked to several people who use Photoshop, Illustrator, and After Effects (though not so much on this one). Those that upgraded to Windows 8 say the same thing I do: "I keep activating the charms bar!". Some do not though. It depends on how you use the software.

I do not want to turn this into another Windows 8 hate thread, I actually like Windows 8. In fact that is the ONLY....ONLY issue I have with 8. Granted it is a big issue to me and many others. But come on, why is it you guys jump down our throats when we want an option? The way I, and many others, use the Adobe programs (by detaching some of the dialogs to give us more room and a better workflow), Windows 8 drives me crazy. Not everybody uses software and computers the same way.

My friend keeps activating the app switcher when he is browsing in Chrome. Every time he shuts down, he says "This is so stupid" because he needs to go to the charms bar instead of Start - Shut Down

The attitude here seems to be like "You are using your mouse incorrectly". I said it before, I like Windows 8 and think it will be a success. But for somebody that uses things in a productive way, probably more so than most of the people here, Windows 8 is a mess. If there was just ONE OPTION to disable the hot corners and COMPLETELY disable those bars while on the desktop, I would be very happy. Businesses would be happy (though most will be if there was an option to boot directly to the desktop). Everybody I know would be happy. You will be happy because you can ignore that option and use Windows 8 like it is now.

What is so horrible about an option?

[hagjohn]

xWhiplash, on 05 December 2012 - 17:37, said:

My friend keeps activating the app switcher when he is browsing in Chrome. Every time he shuts down, he says "This is so stupid" because he needs to go to the charms bar instead of Start - Shut Down

You should tell your friend to hit the power button on his computer. It should shut down windows and turn off the power.

[LogicalApex]

I'm sure a lot of people downgraded...

I just purchased a Lenovo T530 and it shipped with Windows 8 Pro. I took advantage of my downgrade rights to go back to Windows 7. I'm sure I'm counted in their "sales" stats for Windows 8, but I won't show up in their usage numbers. The real question is what is the actual usage of Windows 8, not the "sales".

hagjohn, on 05 December 2012 - 18:10, said:

You should tell your friend to hit the power button on his computer. It should shut down windows and turn off the power.

I love this advice...

It assumes that the power button is conveniently located, mine generally are at an annoying distance from me, and that the user knows how to map them, the majority are mapped to sleep by default and not shut down.

There is the whole debate on whether or not people need to shutdown at all, but the reality is they should be allowed to do whatever they want easily. The shutdown/sleep/hibernation option should have been placed on the charms bar directly and not buried. It is only buried deeper than it was in the "Start Menu" days because it doesn't make sense on a tablet (people are more accustomed to the power button on the tablet because it isn't a few feet away from them).

But there is no need really is complaining about this stuff anymore. Windows 8 shipped even after people aired this during the Preview stages so we just have to accept (or reject) the OS as a whole for what it is now.

[threetonesun]

Start > Shut Down > Chose shut down option

Charm Bar > Power > Chose shut down option

Outside of not knowing immediately where the charm bar is, I don't see a real difference.

[BajiRav]

LogicalApex, on 05 December 2012 - 18:17, said:

I'm sure a lot of people downgraded...

I just purchased a Lenovo T530 and it shipped with Windows 8 Pro. I took advantage of my downgrade rights to go back to Windows 7. I'm sure I'm counted in their "sales" stats for Windows 8, but I won't show up in their usage numbers. The real question is what is the actual usage of Windows 8, not the "sales".



I love this advice...

It assumes that the power button is conveniently located, mine generally are at an annoying distance from me, and that the user knows how to map them, the majority are mapped to sleep by default and not shut down.

There is the whole debate on whether or not people need to shutdown at all, but the reality is they should be allowed to do whatever they want easily. The shutdown/sleep/hibernation option should have been placed on the charms bar directly and not buried. It is only buried deeper than it was in the "Start Menu" days because it doesn't make sense on a tablet (people are more accustomed to the power button on the tablet because it isn't a few feet away from them).

But there is no need really is complaining about this stuff anymore. Windows 8 shipped even after people aired this during the Preview stages so we just have to accept (or reject) the OS as a whole for what it is now.

Putting them on charms will be a disaster. I'd say in the user menu, right below logout...just that it will be a loooong drop down as in Windows 7.

[vcfan]

LogicalApex, on 05 December 2012 - 18:17, said:

I'm sure a lot of people downgraded...

I just purchased a Lenovo T530 and it shipped with Windows 8 Pro. I took advantage of my downgrade rights to go back to Windows 7. I'm sure I'm counted in their "sales" stats for Windows 8, but I won't show up in their usage numbers. The real question is what is the actual usage of Windows 8, not the "sales".

you are sure of it just because you did it? do you guys just write stuff like this because it makes you feel better?

but im sure you're right because that is why retailers cant keep touchscreen ultrabooks on the shelves because people are buying these touchscreen ultrabooks in droves because they works really good in windows 7 /s. I mean the non touchscreen stuff isn't selling as well because windows 8 doesn't support touch.

[LogicalApex]

vcfan, on 05 December 2012 - 18:51, said:

you are sure of it just because you did it? do you guys just write stuff like this because it makes you feel better?

but im sure you're right because that is why retailers cant keep touchscreen ultrabooks on the shelves because people are buying these touchscreen ultrabooks in droves because they works really good in windows 7 /s. I mean the non touchscreen stuff isn't selling as well because windows 8 doesn't support touch.

I said a lot, not the majority. Unless we got solid usage numbers from MS I was simply making the point that a sale isn't equal to actual usage.

That being said, MS has never disclosed real usage numbers so I don't expect them to start now.

To be fair, I enjoy the discussions, but in reality I could care less what any of us uses on our PCs. So it doesn't affect my emotions at all really. I am competent enough to use Windows 7 or 8 or Linux or Mac OS as long as my needs are met in the way I like

[Growled]

Order_66, on 04 December 2012 - 05:03, said:

And if you get the story from microsoft then you haven't got the full story either lol

True. They don't exactly lie but they don't tell the entire truth either. Of course, they are not alone in doing that.Many big corporations do it.