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#46 nekkidtruth

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:21

There's a reason pro-gunners are referred to as "gun nuts" around here. Just look at this thread as an incredible example.

"He used an AR15. I'm gonna have to buy one before it gets banned!" What a freakin' joke.


#47 Ph1b3r0pt1c

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:20

I have three, your point?

#48 nekkidtruth

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:57

I have three, your point?


If that was directed at me, I never asked how many you have. Your point?

If not directed at me, carry on!

#49 BGM

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:10

Wrong.

While I dont have a perfect solution to stop this kind of thing, yours is certainly not the way at all, your way leads to larger slaughters because criminals will be the only ones armed, good plan!

Better steps to take are to identify the crazies faster and ensure they are locked up if they pose a danger, armed or not. Someone with a psychiatric hold is prohibited from purchasing and owning firearms.
Another thing to eliminate are "Gun free zones" every single one of these shootings is perpetrated in one, because the badguy wants to shoot defenseless fish in a barrel, they dont want to take the chance of being stopped with force.


Even in most gun free countries criminals find a way to get a gun, and use it.


otherwise, it's just an arms race for everyone to have bigger, better, more powerful weapons... that isn't good.

agreed, even in the most gun-free countries criminals can still find a weapon... but they cannot just walk into a shop and buy one, which restricts them to a very very small portion of the population.

taking western europe as an example, you hardly hear of any gun crime... yes, sometimes there are slight issues and yes if you really really want a weapon you can find one if you look hard enough. in the uk, not even the police have weapons, and they never will (except specialist sections), because it just creates problems.

it's a simplistic view i agree... but restrict their sale (i.e. not supermarkets, etc) and restrict their use (private land), and tighten ownership laws... i.e. preferably you can't legally own one at all unless you can provide evidence for their use and storage, similar to shotgun laws in the UK..

according to wikipedia (i know i know) there are 0.22 gun homicides per 100, 000 with this approach, seems pretty decent to me! :)

#50 ILikeTobacco

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 13:57

Like I said banning guns does lower firearm homicides but that's somehow slipped by.

In Washington DC, when guns were banned, it caused a 73% increase in gun related homicides. It remained significantly higher under the ban was lifted. Since then, the rates have went back down to where the country average is. Gun ban attempts have already failed in the US. The only people who care about where you are allowed to carry them are not the ones you should be afraid of. You claim to be all about backed up facts, and yet you actually believe what will happen is what is in this video. Just so you know, its a parody because I don't think you caught that the first time. Full gun ban is not the solution for the US. It has been tried and it has failed.



#51 BGM

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 14:00

interesting, didn't realise it had ever been banned, why did it fail? Can't watch the video at work, no sound.

it's clear to me then that the only solution is to just let everyone shoot themselves :D

#52 ILikeTobacco

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 15:31

interesting, didn't realise it had ever been banned, why did it fail? Can't watch the video at work, no sound.

it's clear to me then that the only solution is to just let everyone shoot themselves :D

No idea for the real reason for failing but Washington DC is a pretty corrupt city, and not just saying that because of the politics. Crime rates are pretty high there. Knowing that law abiding citizens won't have a weapon on them just takes the risk out of robbing someone at gunpoint.

The video is just a funny clip of how criminals would see the gun free zone signs and stop robbing people there because they can't use their guns in the gun free zone.

#53 FlintyV

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 15:57

No idea for the real reason for failing but Washington DC is a pretty corrupt city, and not just saying that because of the politics. Crime rates are pretty high there. Knowing that law abiding citizens won't have a weapon on them just takes the risk out of robbing someone at gunpoint.

The video is just a funny clip of how criminals would see the gun free zone signs and stop robbing people there because they can't use their guns in the gun free zone.


Homicides did fall in Washington DC in 1976 (a 3.3%/month drop in firearm-homicides & .6%/month drop in firearm-suicides) and and the decade following the ban was on average lower than the decade preceding the ban. The full effectiveness of the ban wasn't really achieved and that can be attributed to the likes of neighbouring states not following suit with gun bans and there's also the advent of the crack market which saw violence increase on the whole.

#54 ILikeTobacco

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 16:32

Homicides did fall in Washington DC in 1976 (a 3.3%/month drop in firearm-homicides & .6%/month drop in firearm-suicides) and and the decade following the ban was on average lower than the decade preceding the ban. The full effectiveness of the ban wasn't really achieved and that can be attributed to the likes of neighbouring states not following suit with gun bans and there's also the advent of the crack market which saw violence increase on the whole.

So you are admitting that the ban caused a 73% increase in gun related homicides and that the ban wasn't what lowered the rate, but rather other things? Got it. When the gun ban was lifted, gun related homicide rates plummeted. Guns will never simply disappear because magic doesn't exist. Stop kidding yourself. Ban guns and the only people that are heavily armed will be the criminals. As I said, the video was a parody. Stop believing it is real life. Magic doesn't exist so get over it.

Just to take it further before you start spouting more lies about how magic exists, the fall in gun related homicides in the late 1980s came from the overall crime rate drops that were happening nationwide. You claim that the crack market caused crime to spike, yet during the time the crack market came about, that is the late 1980s to the early 1990s, gun related crime rates in DC, and nationwide, were falling. So are you now going to suggest that crack helps fight crime?

#55 FlintyV

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 16:43

So you are admitting that the ban caused a 73% increase in gun related homicides and that the ban wasn't what lowered the rate, but rather other things? Got it. When the gun ban was lifted, gun related homicide rates plummeted. Guns will never simply disappear because magic doesn't exist. Stop kidding yourself. Ban guns and the only people that are heavily armed will be the criminals. As I said, the video was a parody. Stop believing it is real life. Magic doesn't exist so get over it.

Just to take it further before you start spouting more lies about how magic exists, the fall in gun related homicides in the late 1980s came from the overall crime rate drops that were happening nationwide. You claim that the crack market caused crime to spike, yet during the time the crack market came about, that is the late 1980s to the early 1990s, gun related crime rates in DC, and nationwide, were falling. So are you now going to suggest that crack helps fight crime?


Ah I see logic and common sense don't apply in this thread.

#56 ILikeTobacco

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 16:47

Ah I see logic and common sense don't apply in this thread.

Says the guy that claims that criminals follow the law. You claimed that the crack is why the gun crimes went up, even though that the crack market didn't explode until 15 years after the ban, when DC's rates were declining, as were the rest of the country's gun crime rates.

Overly strict gun control laws were tried in the US and failed. Just because it works in Europe or else wear doesn't mean it works here. There is a reason each region in the world has its own laws. Different cultures require different laws.

#57 FlintyV

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 16:54

Says the guy that claims that criminals follow the law. You claimed that the crack is why the gun crimes went up, even though that the crack market didn't explode until 15 years after the ban, when DC's rates were declining, as were the rest of the country's gun crime rates.

Overly strict gun control laws were tried in the US and failed. Just because it works in Europe or else wear doesn't mean it works here. There is a reason each region in the world has its own laws. Different cultures require different laws.


Where did I ever say criminals follow the law? If they did they would't be criminals. :rolleyes:

#58 ILikeTobacco

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 17:04

Where did I ever say criminals follow the law? If they did they would't be criminals. :rolleyes:

You said that a gun ban would lower gun homicides in the US. Since we know that banning guns won't change the number of firearms out there as seen in places like DC where even with the gun ban and the current assault rifle ban, there are just as many people with guns, it means you think that just because guns are banned criminals will see the ban and think to themselves, I guess I have to find something else to kill people with. In Europe, where guns were never as readily available, gun bans in the past made gun related homicides go down. In the US the exact opposite has been proven to be true. Every location in the US where gun bans took effect caused gun related homicides to spike, not decrease. Again, different cultures need different laws. Gun bans have failed repeatedly in the US, not stop claiming magic exists, since magic is the only way all the guns would instantly disappear. The only way a gun ban can have any effect is if guns 100% disappeared instantly, since that won't happen, what you are claiming is that criminals will follow the law, since nothing else, as it has been proven multiple times, will lower gun crime.

Also, New York city.... so again, your entire argument fails. Not to mention, a competent metal worker can build a homemade gun, the same way they did DC. The past proves you wrong.

#59 Javik

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 17:10

Oh yes, handing out guns to even more people that really shouldn't have them is a great plan. :rolleyes:

I suppose you also think the key to put out a fire is to add more fuel.


Gun nuts thinking? That would be a first

Even in most gun free countries criminals find a way to get a gun, and use it.


Yeah, in a panicked situation with people probably running about all over the place and complete panic it would help matter so much to have a bunch of untrained civilians also popping their guns all over the place.

There's a reason pro-gunners are referred to as "gun nuts" around here. Just look at this thread as an incredible example.

"He used an AR15. I'm gonna have to buy one before it gets banned!" What a freakin' joke.


Amen.

The AR15 is Kingcracker's weapon of choice. I'm pretty sure I remember him telling me that because it was semi auto that the chances of it being used in a shooting spree were remote.

Even in most gun free countries criminals find a way to get a gun, and use it.


That's odd because it's incredibly difficult for criminals to get guns over here. The odd criminal may get one but it's incredibly hard, and prohibitively expensive. It's not about not being unable, it's about Americans being unwilling to actually engage their brains and approach the issue with common sense. Last year if I recall we had 18 gun related homicides in the UK. In America some cities may get that many gun related homicides in a single day. Gun prohibition can work, it just helps to also have a populace not completely packed out with gun nuts.

#60 BGM

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 17:12

i think the main point here is that criminals still have guns in europe etc.. but they typically do not run around mugging everyone in sight because they are not faced with a weapon pointing back at them. To be quite frank, in London there is a bigger problem with knives than guns... most notably because you use them in the home, and they are a v easily accessible weapon :)

I can only put this down to the weapons being much much harder to get hold of. If you get stopped, pulled over for a faulty headlight etc with a hand gun in the UK you are going to jail man... no matter what you have or haven't done..

it just needs to be really, really strict.



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