49 posts in this topic

No, Breivik had legal means to get his message out. You are allowed to say what you want other than you are NOT allowed to incite others to harm people or society.

So, you can say "I think group X are a danger/inferior/whatever.", but you cannot add "We must get rid of/attack/hurt them".

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Looks like somebody took the information down. When I followed the OP's link a moment ago, I get a "not-found" response.

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No, Breivik had legal means to get his message out. You are allowed to say what you want other than you are NOT allowed to incite others to harm people or society.

So, you can say "I think group X are a danger/inferior/whatever.", but you cannot add "We must get rid of/attack/hurt them".

but his message was "Get rid of the muslims"

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but his message was "Get rid of the muslims"

Which you're allowed to say. People would call you a racist for doing so, but it's perfectly legal to say you want x group kicked out. You just can't say they should be attacked or killed or otherwise harmed.

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I've actually argued in the past that Anderw Breivik's massacre happened because he had no legitimate way to get his message out in Norway so he got it out in the loudest, most illegitimate way possible... by killing children and blowing up government buildings. I believe that if he had the legal right to say his hate speech without threat of being arrested that he wouldn't have felt it necessary to do what he did.

I suggest you stop calling other people ignorant if you're going to spout that kind of ignorant crap yourself. As you obviously don't know anything about Norway, or ABB.

but his message was "Get rid of the muslims"

We have plenty of people here saying that, heck we have an organized group fashioned after the British defense league, and we have our own old group fashioned after older Viking principles who wants to kick anyone not white and of Norwegian descent out called Vigrid.

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as I said up thread.. who decides what is hate speech and what if anything should we be allowed to hate at all? It's far easier just to allow the speech so we all know who the haters are.

I've actually argued in the past that Anderw Breivik's massacre happened because he had no legitimate way to get his message out in Norway so he got it out in the loudest, most illegitimate way possible... by killing children and blowing up government buildings. I believe that if he had the legal right to say his hate speech without threat of being arrested that he wouldn't have felt it necessary to do what he did.

Just to clarify things for my own personal perspective, are you saying Breivik was justified in killing those innocent people.You know, as a sign of protest ?

My own personal opinion is that anyone can say what they want about anything. Just as long as they are willing to be held accountable for it

Wouldn't it be ironic if some lunatic went on a killing spree at the WBC. Killing at will for enjoyment an only one person survived the attack ~ Shirley Phelps-Roper. I wonder how she would hold up burying her children with a bunch of people trolling her for some media attention ?

How about you Seta San , have you got any family ? Imagine them being butchered for no good reason and the whole of Neowin turning up and laughing at you in your grief. Now be honest ( not to me, but to yourself) Would you be offended by that. Would your views be the same as you lower your dead children into the ground ?

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what the hell. when do these guys gona grow a brain and stop inbreeding. this is just stupid. they have no right to picket the funerals. or mess with the families. now is the time to grieve for those who lost their loved ones. don't they have anything else to do? if anonymous trashed the site they've done some good.

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Just to clarify things for my own personal perspective, are you saying Breivik was justified in killing those innocent people.You know, as a sign of protest ?

My own personal opinion is that anyone can say what they want about anything. Just as long as they are willing to be held accountable for it

no. it's just a theory

Wouldn't it be ironic if some lunatic went on a killing spree at the WBC. Killing at will for enjoyment an only one person survived the attack ~ Shirley Phelps-Roper. I wonder how she would hold up burying her children with a bunch of people trolling her for some media attention ?

people have shot at and bombed their church. and honestly I don't care either way if some would be killer gets lucky

How about you Seta San , have you got any family ? Imagine them being butchered for no good reason and the whole of Neowin turning up and laughing at you in your grief. Now be honest ( not to me, but to yourself) Would you be offended by that. Would your views be the same as you lower your dead children into the ground ?

of course i'd be offended. offense isn't a good reason for speech to be banned.

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Good. I'm glad they did that, now maybe someone will **** those disrespecting *******s up!

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Good these Right Wing Terrorists need to be disrupted in any way possible.

Good. I'm glad they did that, now maybe someone will **** those disrespecting *******s up!

Yeah, what the **** are these people doing? Do they have no hearts whatsoever?

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Whats with all the ****** ? Do we really need to censor words on a Sesame Street level?

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I know US laws allows these scum bags to do what they do, but there are some things that PEOPLE just shouldn't tolerate.

The Hell's Angels have a habit of preventing the WBC's pickets, so I -really- hope that they or someone else steps up to make sure these lowlifes don't make a mockery of these funerals.

Not the Hell's Angels, but the Patriot Guard, they are a group of mainly Veterans that got fed up with the WBBC's antics and decided to do to them what they are trying to do to the families, harass them, which is also legal, and I'd prefer the sounds of a few hundred Harleys revving than the hateful drivel WBBC spews.

On a related note I'm surprised theyarecomingforyou doesn't support them, they hate America as much as he does, hell the WBBC might also be anti Semitic too for all I care

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Whats with all the ****** ? Do we really need to censor words on a Sesame Street level?

Because this is a family site.

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no. hate speech is covered under freedom of speech. I hate what they say but I defend their right to say it.

edit.

more over; who gets to decide what is hate speech or what is actually worthy of hate?

so i can be racist and shout what ever the hell i like in public about what ever race and events i want and everyone should accept it as its my right? but yet one person says one tiny racist thing on facebook and people get arrested left and right

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......

Care to elaborate on the theory please as I am genuinely interested in it.

Do you believe that people in general should be held accountable for what they say or do ? Lets say I insult your mother in a nasty way. I'm exercising my right for speech am i not ? Are you just going to accept it or are you going to drop me instantly ? I know what I would do (No internet tough guy , I'm sure you would beat me up ) ,My point is that you would stop me from having my say, Well I hope you would , same as anyone else with a back bone would.

WBC are attention wh*res and they play the game well. They sue anyone that offends them ( Crazy logic eh ?) Idiots like this need to be held accountable for the poisonous bile they spew out.I fully support people having the right to protest and say as they wish. I take it you're a American ? I couldn't care less what happens in your messed up country to be honest.I do care about decency ,such an out dated word I know.Maybe I'm just old fashioned ?

Thankfully in my country (England ) we are now doing something about bigots that preach hatred , Its called deportation.If they hate my country so much , well we just send them back to the **** pit they come from or if they are wanted by another country we send them there. Obviously, If they are a British citizen we deal with them internally via the legal system.

This process in no way takes away any of my rights.These laws are in place to protect the decent people that live in my country.If i want to protest in a peaceful way ,I'm allowed to do so. The moment I step over the line I will be held accountable for my actions , and rightly so.

By the way , nothing in life is FREE , not even speech. "You always have to pay the piper for the tune".

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Apparently the KKK.. yes the KKK is also defending the memorial against the Westboro Baptist Church too... what the ****? o_O

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IMHO - the WBC is there to make a bad name for the faith as a whole. Honestly, I highly doubt many true Christians would go out and picket the funerals, or any Athiest, Agnostic, Jew, Islamist or anyone else as it is just plain disrespectful and wrong. They (WBC) were wrong in claiming God protects their site, and were proven wrong.

Anonymous took the probably little bit of time out of their day to do the hack and prove that the church was wrong in that assumption. Now, I don't really know what the site looked like after the hack, but in all honesty, a simple restore of a backup would take care of a hack which I am guessing they did.

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IMHO - the WBC is there to make a bad name for the faith as a whole. Honestly, I highly doubt many true Christians would go out and picket the funerals, or any Athiest, Agnostic, Jew, Islamist or anyone else as it is just plain disrespectful and wrong. They (WBC) were wrong in claiming God protects their site, and were proven wrong.

Anonymous took the probably little bit of time out of their day to do the hack and prove that the church was wrong in that assumption. Now, I don't really know what the site looked like after the hack, but in all honesty, a simple restore of a backup would take care of a hack which I am guessing they did.

Watch the video ! All they did was insert a "typical" Anonymous statement in the downloads section of the site. Live on air , The Anon guy was rather amusing when he admitted to having "over 9.000 sins" lol.

It was in response of WBC making up lies about Anonymous,IMO the attack was very tame and off the cuff.In all honesty I think WBO called it on ,on purpose, Anonymous giving credit to Th3 J35t3r as well ? WOW that's a first haha. They also dropped dox on WBO members as well. Links are in main story ( If you was into that kind of thing )

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Care to elaborate on the theory please as I am genuinely interested in it.

Do you believe that people in general should be held accountable for what they say or do ? Lets say I insult your mother in a nasty way. I'm exercising my right for speech am i not ? Are you just going to accept it or are you going to drop me instantly ? I know what I would do (No internet tough guy , I'm sure you would beat me up ) ,My point is that you would stop me from having my say, Well I hope you would , same as anyone else with a back bone would.

WBC are attention wh*res and they play the game well. They sue anyone that offends them ( Crazy logic eh ?) Idiots like this need to be held accountable for the poisonous bile they spew out.I fully support people having the right to protest and say as they wish. I take it you're a American ? I couldn't care less what happens in your messed up country to be honest.I do care about decency ,such an out dated word I know.Maybe I'm just old fashioned ?

Thankfully in my country (England ) we are now doing something about bigots that preach hatred , Its called deportation.If they hate my country so much , well we just send them back to the **** pit they come from or if they are wanted by another country we send them there. Obviously, If they are a British citizen we deal with them internally via the legal system.

This process in no way takes away any of my rights.These laws are in place to protect the decent people that live in my country.If i want to protest in a peaceful way ,I'm allowed to do so. The moment I step over the line I will be held accountable for my actions , and rightly so.

By the way , nothing in life is FREE , not even speech. "You always have to pay the piper for the tune".

unless that speech encourages or leads to direct violence or harm i'd say that no speech should have legal consequences. Social consequences absolutely; not legal. Also, from what I understand, the U.K. has been whole heartedly importing some of the world's most vile bigots from the middle east and north Africa.

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Care to elaborate on the theory please as I am genuinely interested in it.

Do you believe that people in general should be held accountable for what they say or do ? Lets say I insult your mother in a nasty way. I'm exercising my right for speech am i not ? Are you just going to accept it or are you going to drop me instantly ? I know what I would do (No internet tough guy , I'm sure you would beat me up ) ,My point is that you would stop me from having my say, Well I hope you would , same as anyone else with a back bone would.

WBC are attention wh*res and they play the game well. They sue anyone that offends them ( Crazy logic eh ?) Idiots like this need to be held accountable for the poisonous bile they spew out.I fully support people having the right to protest and say as they wish. I take it you're a American ? I couldn't care less what happens in your messed up country to be honest.I do care about decency ,such an out dated word I know.Maybe I'm just old fashioned ?

Thankfully in my country (England ) we are now doing something about bigots that preach hatred , Its called deportation.If they hate my country so much , well we just send them back to the **** pit they come from or if they are wanted by another country we send them there. Obviously, If they are a British citizen we deal with them internally via the legal system.

This process in no way takes away any of my rights.These laws are in place to protect the decent people that live in my country.If i want to protest in a peaceful way ,I'm allowed to do so. The moment I step over the line I will be held accountable for my actions , and rightly so.

By the way , nothing in life is FREE , not even speech. "You always have to pay the piper for the tune".

Its interesting to hear from people in other countries regarding the idea of free speech. It certainly sounds like the US treats speech differently then many other countries.

I think one of the big issues regarding how you 'regulate' it is that most of us in the US feel very apprehensive about trying to censor speech. You can have all the best intentions in the world, but ultimately if you go as far as making laws restricting what you can say, your putting alot of power in the hands of the government you have. You have to really trust in that government to not abuse that kind of power and try to micro manage 'free speech'. While it may be easy for someone to point to something specific like say the WBC people or lets say some speech by Hitler, but how do you define that in a law that avoids it being abused? You can't just say that if anyone is offended by speech that it makes it hate. I suppose you could define it as anything that directly incites violence (i.e. saying that someone or some group specifically should be killed), but trying to define hate in a universally accepted way is tough.

Ultimately, the answer is not more laws (at least for the US), the answer is developing the culture and community that rejects the ideas that are unacceptable. There are always those that get out of line, but with a strong community, the consequences can keep them in check. I'm not going to comment on how it is in the UK, but in the US, most feel that decency is better defined by a community than its federal government. Just becuase we dont make strict laws does not mean there aren't advocates for decency. Of course you are right about something else, we seem to be in an era where 'decency' is not anywhere near what it use to be. You can trace it right back to how cultures and communities around the world have changed. So different countries are going to deal with that change differently.

Of course, we live in a 'pc' era that does tend to take things way too far trying to silence some topics while letting other speech go forward unchecked, making it all seem very arbitrary in application.

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Regarding what Anon did, I really dont care either way.

Personally, I feel like both groups have serious issues. While the Anon group sometimes attacks something we can all rally around, they also go after things that we shake our heads over. If your looking for a group with a clear set of standards, Anon is not it. WBC, on the other hand, is clearly a radical group that goes way too far. The worst part is that their insane actions make all religious groups look bad even if the vast majority would never agree with the stuff they spew. If Anon wants to mess with them, especially if WBC attacked in some way first, then have at it.

Besides, all we are talking about is internet related actions. This is all meaningless stuff in the long run. Its not like the two groups are actaully fighting, as in real people in the real world. If one attacks the other, I doubt it would lead to one dissappearing.

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Does the US not have laws against hate speech? Westboro members are clearly infringing on the rights and freedoms of others, which shouldn't be tolerated under the guise of free speech.

You'd think that but somehow hate laws only relate to certain groups and not everyone.

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Absolutely Seta , we made a big mistake by letting them in to preach the hatred in the first place. But now we are getting rid of them one by one.

Abu Hamza for instance.

Abu Qatada is on his way out, soon as we convince Jordan to treat him nice in jail.

These two examples have tried to cause divide in the British people by preaching hatred.They are entitled to chastise us ( lets not forget the UK and the US are allies) because in the eyes of the organisations they represent we have wronged them.Everyone is entitled to an opinion. peaceful protest is welcomed in my home city of London.Ever hear of Speakers Corner?

if Anonymous wants to troll Scientology globally again as they did in the past. They should be allowed to.do so , so long as its peaceful and in no way vulgar or offensive to the general public/public opinion. WBC should be allowed to protest as they wish but when it becomes obscene and offensive to the general public it becomes an issue. They do it for the shock value and to generate publicity and they manipulate the media very well.

How do we/should we define whats acceptable ? common sense should play a major part in it for a start. Society should dictate whats acceptable and the government should enforce it. Governments should be scared of the people it represents and not the other way around.Unfortunately some countries are becoming police states,Blame the voters for putting them in power !

Rights are a privilege,and they can be taken away if society deems you unfit to hold them.In the UK our personal actions are judged by our peers.

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Wow, just wow

(On a personal note, Anon just went up a point in my view)

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