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Linux, as a Whole

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Posted

Depends on your needs I guess. Love it as a server platform, a few of mine run the traditional LAMP stack, Tomcat, Rails, etc. I [i]can[/i] do that stuff with a Windows server, but some of the software's never really been properly optimized for anything besides *nix (Looking at you, Ruby), never mind it's nice not having to worry so much about available resources.

Not so much for the desktop though, I don't like fiddling as much as I used to when I was younger versus the "everything is available and just works" factor with Windows, never mind dealing with compatibility issues/layers and such. Gaming is a small consideration for me although it does factor in a bit.. Steam certainly won't make me change my mind, don't like it anyway. Not a fan of where the various desktop environments are heading either. Lots of potential, but it's got a [i]long[/i] way to go.

As far as the drivers go, overall reasonably happy with my nVidia based systems.. don't get me started on ATI though, a couple machines here with ATI boards are stuck in either "don't upgrade the OS or downgrade X" mode due to being shelved, thank you very little ATI, pass.

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[quote name='Tyler R.' timestamp='1356112214' post='595407518']
Yeah that's another thing. X was written in the 80's by Bell Labs for UNIX V5 (If I remember right). It's only purpose was to have multiple terminal windows open, run a clock, etc. It was not designed to have icons, wobbly windows, and all the other pretty stuff we expect out of a modern 2012 computer. All of that was shoe horned in at later dates. I'm really hoping X's replacement, Wayland will fix a lot of those issues. It's written from the ground up to do all those things. If you get the chance, look up the demos on youtube. It's still in it's infancy, but it's still quite interesting and has potential. :)

Edit: Here ya are.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs9Ly5ldR9A"]https://www.youtube....h?v=Cs9Ly5ldR9A[/url]
[/quote]

Admittedly, X is a pain to work with. It was a great idea when System V was king in the early days of computing, but has slowly evolved into a nightmare. That's why toolkits such as GTK+ and Qt were created: to make development of GUI applications on top of X11 less painful. Wayland certainly has potential, and is backed by many of the current X11 developers. The video you linked to is quite old, however, and doesn't represent the current state of the project. Take a look at [url="http://wayland.freedesktop.org/releases.html"]Wayland releases[/url] page for a more up-to-date feature set. In particular, read the release announcements for each release.
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[quote name='xorangekiller' timestamp='1356113425' post='595407558']
I can't argue much with your first point. Most PC games on the market today are written for Windows alone. If you play a lot of games, at least at the moment, you need a native Windows install.

As for your second point, however, I disagree. In fact, I would argue that it is actually simpler to find and install software in most Linux distributions. The Ubuntu Software Center, for example, lets you easily search for and install both commercial and free software. You can also use Synaptic in Ubuntu to install individual software packages graphically or Aptitude to install any package in the repository with one command. When I setup a new system, I routinely install dozens of unrelated programs by issuing a single command; that's much more difficult to do with Windows. Its not that software is more difficult to install in most Linux distributions than it is in Windows, its just a different way of thinking about it. (It [i]is[/i] a point that Windows users often get hung up on, however. I certainly had this problem when I first started using Ubuntu.)
[/quote]

Actually you forget two things

OOOH linux you have to know command line - (even though people don't realize instead of talking them through the 15 clicks to get something done- they can copy and paste a command to fix it) versus Windows where you have to download a patch , wait for microsoft to fix it, or edit the registry yourself.

the second is an [size=4][b]image stigmata[/b][/size] (yes I said it why not call it like it is- when people think linux this is who they think runs it... Sorry if you are the guy but a prime example)

[img]http://s2.hubimg.com/u/4931009_f260.jpg[/img]


not realizing for example- This user -- Nixie PixieL who maintains a blog about Linux ....
http://www.nixiepixel.com/

[img]http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5289/5335616008_9f15df7fe7_z.jpg[/img]

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[quote name='redvamp128' timestamp='1356114990' post='595407606']



not realizing for example- This user -- Nixie Pixie who maintains a blog about Linux ....

[img]http://www.votefamous.com/people_pics/NixiePixie.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Nixie Pixel. LOL!

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[quote name='Mindovermaster' timestamp='1356106213' post='595407272']
Hey guys, it's very odd to me. I've been 100% on Ubuntu (12.10 x64) for 2 months straight and never looked back to Windows 7. Well, except to help my Mom on her computer.

Everything just... works. While I had a few problems along the way, I broke through them. Help is there, all you need to do is look for it.

Oddly enough, my Dad was intrigued by it as well. I put it on his laptop a few months ago, and he loves it. He wants it on his desktop, too.

Yeah, you get the people who say, "Why switch?", "Linux isn't compatible", "It looks ugly". With a little know how, you can do anything in Linux, in some cases more, than you can do in Windows.

Linux, as a whole, has grown 10 folds since I started venturing it in ~2005. More support, drivers, open source software, and more power to the kernel.

I have to say, I learned more in the last 2 months than I learned the last ~7 years. This proves that even the noobish, with help, can overcome anything.

Anyone who is iffy about using Linux, and wants the full experience, not just in a VM, put it on a flash drive. You can install it straight off there, and not have to wait for the Live-CD to boot up. That's how I started.
[/quote]
The problem with preaching Linux is that, for--what, 15+ years?--a long ass time, it's been the exact same mantra. For 15+ years, Linux, "with some work", could "do anything Windows can, and more". And for 15+ years, the claim has meant nothing to 99% of the ears its fallen on.

The same story that failed a thousand times isn't going to suddenly work. There's a reason why Linux is only interesting when people don't know it's there (Android).

It's cool that you're having a good time, but, you know, FYI, your attitude will never go further than preaching to the choir.

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i just cant stand Linux b/c you have to use the command line to do anything with it. perhaps the Distros have evolved since a few years ago when i was using Fedora and Ubuntu. It takes me 20x longer to find or do something in Linux than Windows. i find myself constantly in linux forums looking for the stupid 15 commands i have to type to find the buried conf file. Then you have to open your cmd line file editor and manually mod it. why? why would anyone have to do this in 2012?

then there's the perpetual issue of installing software. sure, the GET stuff is convenient, but not when you have to download a .tar.gz file from a website. good luck installing it! you have to unzip, run 'make /install' and watch the command line (once again) go to work. why cant i just download an exe, double click it and click install from a nice GUI?

Then people say that Windows has too many patches. in my experience, Ubuntu had massive amounts of patches, daily.

<exaggeration> Then i love the people that suggest using Linux-based equivalent software. So Ubuntu doesnt run Office like Windows does. Just use kOffice, they say! boy, that's fun until it wont open any docx files </exaggeration>
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[quote name='Mindovermaster' timestamp='1356106213' post='595407272']
[b]Everything just... works.[/b] [i][u]While I had a few problems along the way, I broke through them. Help is there, all you need to do is look for it.[/u][/i]
[/quote]

Way to [i]immediately[/i] contradict yourself.

And if you think everything just works, you obviously haven't attempted an upgrade. Last time I attempted an upgrade on Ubuntu (last year), it borked everything up. It still works, but the package manager on my install is now shot to hell. Add in me having to compile and install my wireless drivers manually on the command line only just last month and my visit to Linux driver hell trying to help someone else with their graphics driver and it's honestly not a system I can recommend to the general public. I can manage it, and it's great when it works, but... there are giant holes you can very easily fall in and be completely unsupported.
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[quote name='Jdawg683' timestamp='1356115236' post='595407614']
i just cant stand Linux b/c [s]you have to use the command line to do anything with it[/s]. perhaps the Distros have evolved since a few years ago when i was using Fedora and Ubuntu. It takes me 20x longer to find or do something in Linux than Windows. i find myself constantly in linux forums looking for the stupid 15 commands i have to type to find the buried conf file. Then you have to open your cmd line file editor and manually mod it. why? why would anyone have to do this in 2012?

then there's the perpetual issue of installing software. sure, the GET stuff is convenient, but not when you have to download a .tar.gz file from a website. good luck installing it! you have to unzip, run 'make /install' and watch the command line (once again) go to work. why cant i just download an exe, double click it and click install from a nice GUI?

Then people say that Windows has too many patches. in my experience, Ubuntu had massive amounts of patches, daily.

<exaggeration> Then i love the people that suggest using Linux-based equivalent software. So Ubuntu doesnt run Office like Windows does. Just use kOffice, they say! boy, that's fun until it wont open any docx files </exaggeration>
[/quote]

That is the point-- YOU DON"T have to run a single command line with the Software Center or the Package Manager.

(the point is that like I said - instead of saying open this... click that... change one drop down a menu.... save then go somewhere else and click then reboot you do have the option unlike windows to copy and paste one command)


Most things these days you don't have to "GET" just a simple click in the Package Manager.....

So once again perpetuating what Linux was in the past.

Have you ever just clicked on a .deb file??? They have them out now you know that work just like an exe -- only thing is that you need to put your password because Linux by default blocks execution of a file that did not originate from the computer to minimize the dangers.

I know for example I can go to teamviewer site download one teamviewer.deb file then click and run it-- where it opens up the software center and asks me for a password.. then it will also download the libraries need for the program to run --- Without a command Line.
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Posted

Ya. I don't see how you can say "it just works" but then say "Help is there, all you need to do is look for it."

Literally, windows "just works". I install my game, it works. I don't need to look for updated drivers, or install an emulator, or whatever else. That is what "it just works" means.
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[quote name='rfirth' timestamp='1356115717' post='595407638']
Way to [i]immediately[/i] contradict yourself.

And if you think everything just works, you obviously haven't attempted an upgrade. Last time I attempted an upgrade on Ubuntu (last year), it borked everything up. It still works, but the package manager on my install is now shot to hell. Add in me having to compile and install my wireless drivers manually on the command line only just last month and my visit to Linux driver hell trying to help someone else with their graphics driver and it's honestly not a system I can recommend to the general public. I can manage it, and it's great when it works, but... there are giant holes you can very easily fall in and be completely unsupported.
[/quote]

You did not read the update issues -- where it suggests - hardwired for upgrades (specifically says There are known failures of some wireless devices and it is recommended to hard-wire for upgrades)

that way it would download the new packages for the devices

Before I upgraded my system I read it and hardwired -- sounds like you had the Broadcom wireless issue then ...BCM43 -60 chipset issue.

Software center not working?? That is strange-- I know there were a few that I had to re-enable them because the upgrade told me that it would disable them. Some you need to add the new Key for the new distribution for them to work. Also by default things like mediabuntu as well as closed driver support is turned off during an upgrade (something it said it would when you first start an upgrade- it said you may have to re-enable repositories)

But then again --
Same is true about 90% of the time when you upgrade WIindows... but then again no complaint there.

You tell me how many upgrades with Windows that you did not have to reinstall things such as video drivers or wireless devices.

[quote name='Lo Tec' timestamp='1356115056' post='595407608']
Nixie Pixel. LOL!
[/quote]

That was before she let her hair grow and dyed it red.

[img]http://a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/50/a16ff4522fb74c1e9a0ca5867c67a95d/l.jpg[/img]

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Posted

[quote name='Jdawg683' timestamp='1356115236' post='595407614']
i just cant stand Linux b/c you have to use the command line to do anything with it. perhaps the Distros have evolved since a few years ago when i was using Fedora and Ubuntu. It takes me 20x longer to find or do something in Linux than Windows. i find myself constantly in linux forums looking for the stupid 15 commands i have to type to find the buried conf file. Then you have to open your cmd line file editor and manually mod it. why? why would anyone have to do this in 2012?
[/quote]

While it is true that the Linux culture leans more toward CLI applications with GUI as an afterthought, I think that is an acute advantage not a disadvantage. Ken Thompson summarized the UNIX philosophy in the quote, "Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface." It is fundamentally different from Microsoft's philosophy, but it has proven its worth. In fact, the thing I miss the most when I use Windows is the power of the command-line. Sure, Windows has a command-line, but its crippled compared to even a basic UNIX shell with simple core utilities (such as BusyBox). Microsoft has tried to remedy this in recent years with PowerShell, and while its certainly a step in the right direction, its still missing much of the power of BASH with GNU Core Utilities.
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[quote name='Jdawg683' timestamp='1356115236' post='595407614']
i just cant stand Linux b/c you have to use the command line to do anything with it. perhaps the Distros have evolved since a few years ago when i was using Fedora and Ubuntu. It takes me 20x longer to find or do something in Linux than Windows. i find myself constantly in linux forums looking for the stupid 15 commands i have to type to find the buried conf file. Then you have to open your cmd line file editor and manually mod it. why? why would anyone have to do this in 2012?

then there's the perpetual issue of installing software. sure, the GET stuff is convenient, but not when you have to download a .tar.gz file from a website. good luck installing it! you have to unzip, run 'make /install' and watch the command line (once again) go to work. why cant i just download an exe, double click it and click install from a nice GUI?

Then people say that Windows has too many patches. in my experience, Ubuntu had massive amounts of patches, daily.

<exaggeration> Then i love the people that suggest using Linux-based equivalent software. So Ubuntu doesnt run Office like Windows does. Just use kOffice, they say! boy, that's fun until it wont open any docx files </exaggeration>
[/quote]

Oh wow...

First of all, you just admitted that you have not tried Linux in a few years. Even 3-4 years ago there were .deb and .rpm packages for most software. Very rarely did you have to compile from a tar.gz or otherwise. The last handful of releases of Ubuntu, Fedora, openSUSE, etc. can work just fine without ever touching a terminal window. Especially in Ubuntu, there are programs for everything imaginable. Give me an example of when you may have to do this in 2012 with Ubuntu. With other more advanced distros, sure. I use Arch and I know there is some terminal work to accomplish.

I am not sure about the mainstream distros, but I cannot imagine they have more patches than Windows has. Some small updates, sure. If you are not on a dial-up connection, what is horrible about a Software Center upgrading your packages for a moment in the background?

No, Ubuntu does not run a native Microsoft Office. I have never used KOffice that I can recall, but you can simply install LibreOffice. It opens .docx files with no issue. Seriously man, you should at least use a product within the last five years before you say how horrible it is. Things change.

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[quote name='Lo Tec' timestamp='1356113489' post='595407562']
Wow Tyler. That sounds like something you need to see a doctor about. (Sorry, these are the words my eyes picked out first. So I ran with it,couldn't resist.)
[/quote]

:p LOL! I'll pencil that into my schedule ASAP.
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[quote name='Tyler R.' timestamp='1356117073' post='595407714']
:p LOL! I'll pencil that into my schedule ASAP.
[/quote]

I would think so. Sounds a mite terrible. :rofl:
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[quote name='xorangekiller' timestamp='1356113839' post='595407576']
Admittedly, X is a pain to work with. It was a great idea when System V was king in the early days of computing, but has slowly evolved into a nightmare. That's why toolkits such as GTK+ and Qt were created: to make development of GUI applications on top of X11 less painful. Wayland certainly has potential, and is backed by many of the current X11 developers. The video you linked to is quite old, however, and doesn't represent the current state of the project. Take a look at [url="http://wayland.freedesktop.org/releases.html"]Wayland releases[/url] page for a more up-to-date feature set. In particular, read the release announcements for each release.
[/quote]

Yup, X needs to go. Thanks for the link to the website. I read some of the release notes and flipped through the screenshots. Looks nice--the fonts are so buttery smooth compared to what we have now. Off hand, do you have a link to a current video demo/keynote? Thanks! :)

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[quote name='Detection' timestamp='1356106599' post='595407280']
Linux is fun for geeking about in, but its a royal PITA to use full time, Windows is easy and works fine without having to trail through endless forums looking for a way to make it do the simplest of tasks

I like Linux, but not for a main OS on my main PC, I have it dual booted on my laptop and have never booted into it more than twice since I installed it
[/quote]

Sounds like Linux isn't meant for you then. If you give it time, then perhaps you would like it. When i get my new pc it will be Linux only.

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[quote name='Tyler R.' timestamp='1356117721' post='595407758']
Yup, X needs to go. Thanks for the link to the website. I read some of the release notes and flipped through the screenshots. Looks nice--the fonts are so buttery smooth compared to what we have now. Off hand, do you have a link to a current video demo/keynote? Thanks! :)
[/quote]

The most recent Wayland demo I can find is [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrcTWdPCj2U"]this one[/url] from Phoronix. Unfortunately, while it demonstrates the general quality and smoothness of Wayland running as the sole display server, it doesn't demonstrate most of Wayland's more advanced capabilities. Alternatively, [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LnYaGYIF_I"]this demo[/url] shows Wayland 1.0 and more of its advanced features, but its running in an X11 window rather than as the primary display server.

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[quote name='soldier1st' timestamp='1356118214' post='595407774']
Sounds like Linux isn't meant for you then. If you give it time, then perhaps you would like it. When i get my new pc it will be Linux only.
[/quote]

I do like it, just not for my main OS :)

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[quote name='xorangekiller' timestamp='1356118898' post='595407804']
The most recent Wayland demo I can find is [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrcTWdPCj2U"]this one[/url] from Phoronix. Unfortunately, while it demonstrates the general quality and smoothness of Wayland running as the sole display server, it doesn't demonstrate most of Wayland's more advanced capabilities. Alternatively, [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LnYaGYIF_I"]this demo[/url] shows Wayland 1.0 and more of its advanced features, but its running in an X11 window rather than as the primary display server.
[/quote]

Wow. Thank you. That looks awesome. They've made a ton of improvements.
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[quote name='Joshie' timestamp='1356115067' post='595407610']
The problem with preaching Linux is that, for--what, 15+ years?--a long ass time, it's been the exact same mantra. For 15+ years, Linux, "with some work", could "do anything Windows can, and more". And for 15+ years, the claim has meant nothing to 99% of the ears its fallen on.

The same story that failed a thousand times isn't going to suddenly work. There's a reason why Linux is only interesting when people don't know it's there (Android).

It's cool that you're having a good time, but, you know, FYI, your attitude will never go further than preaching to the choir.
[/quote]

So my opinion is now law? Interesting.

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[quote name='soldier1st' timestamp='1356118214' post='595407774']
Sounds like Linux isn't meant for you then.
[/quote]
With this moronic "Linux isn't for you then" approach still heads on, is it really wonder that "teh year" has not, and will not for the foreseeable future, come? :rolleyes:

Until the zealous community pulls its head out of its ass, Linux will be a niche aimed only at a fraction of computer users.
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Posted

Haters will hate until the end of time..
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[quote name='Joshie' timestamp='1356115067' post='595407610']
The problem with preaching Linux is that, for--what, 15+ years?--a long ass time, it's been the exact same mantra. For 15+ years, Linux, "with some work", could "do anything Windows can, and more". And for 15+ years, the claim has meant nothing to 99% of the ears its fallen on.

The same story that failed a thousand times isn't going to suddenly work. There's a reason why Linux is only interesting when people don't know it's there (Android).

It's cool that you're having a good time, but, you know, FYI, your attitude will never go further than preaching to the choir.
[/quote]

Linux is already capable of everything that Windows can do, it's just lack of software support in the few cases where it falls behind.

[quote name='@Leo' timestamp='1356122428' post='595407956']
With this moronic "Linux isn't for you then" approach still heads on, is it really wonder that "teh year" has not, and will not for the foreseeable future, come? :rolleyes:

Until the zealous community pulls its head out of its ass, Linux will be a niche aimed only at a fraction of computer users.
[/quote]

The majority of people that pedal that BS about Linux and the year of the desktop are the haters. Most actual Linux users really don't care if Linux becomes the favoured desktop OS. Whether it's #1 or not, we're happy with our PCs running our OS of choice.

I have little allegiance either way. Linux works well for me, but if there ever comes a point that it doesn't, then I'll jump to OSX or Windows or whatever. I use whatever gives me the best experience at the time.
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Personally I don't use Linux because:
- I've always got Windows for free, so the money argument is moot
- Windows does everything I want and has the best software and hardware support by far.
- Linux doesn't run the majority of the software I rely on every day, at least not in any officially supported capacity: Visual Studio, Microsoft Office, all my games, my favorite music player (foobar2000), my favorite bittorent client (uTorrent), my favorite free paint application (Paint.NET), Fraps, Virtual Dub. Where the alternatives exist, they're more or less inferior, at least for my needs.
- All popular Linux distributions look terrible out of the box, and I have better things to do than trying to make it look good. I'm ready to pay for software if that means I don't have to work to [i]make[/i] it work the way I want.
- I'm really not a fan of the package management approach to installing software: if the version you want isn't available, the only alternative is often to compile the code yourself

[quote name='Majesticmerc' timestamp='1356110128' post='595407414']I don't use Windows because Linux is inferior or impossible to play games on, simply because the games I want to play are only available on Windows. If the games I want to play were available natively in Linux, I'd uninstall Windows.[/quote]Is there any Linux software you use that's not available on Windows or that doesn't have an equivalent or better Windows alternative?

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[quote name='Majesticmerc' timestamp='1356124228' post='595408032']
I use whatever gives me the best experience at the time.
[/quote]

[size=6][b]THIS x a million[/b][/size]

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