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Linux, as a Whole

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[quote name='redvamp128' timestamp='1356199437' post='595409708']
The Windows version did not fall under the MIT license since it did not use the same code.
[/quote]
Still FUD, as the Windows version is the original one and has been licensed under MIT for ages...

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Thread cleaned. Please post maturely, or not at all.

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[quote name='ingramator' timestamp='1356157283' post='595408960']
Hahaha true but for the record you can use PuTTY free of charge for personal AND commercial usage with absolutely no limitations whatsoever, that guy is just trying to spread FUD. As many people have said, if you use Linux, you're going to have to hit up terminal at least daily. When I'm on Linux, the terminal never closes. The thing with Linux is that it was never designed to handle a GUI, this is one of its biggest shortcomings. Windows and the NT kernel (OSX as well to agree) have kernels built for a mouse/keyboard/digitiser to interact directly with a GUI object. Linux has it so your mouse interacts with the kernel which is interacting with code, the GUI being a layer above this. There are many extra layers in Linux which cause it to be bogged down whenever trying to do anything with graphics. As I said before, I have every linux distro know to man on HDDs and Live CD/DVDs but not for getting real work done (only pentesting/hacking). Windows works, looks good and is easy to do things even when you have no idea what's going on. Other things that make it unstoppable: software support, hardware support, the entire network/graphics/sound/IO stack, GPU accelerated tasks such as WDDM and RDP, user/noob friendly whilst still retaining full power user functionality over the OS through CMD and PowerShell. The list just keeps going.
[/quote]

This is almost completely untrue. You are certainly not required to "hit up the terminal daily" in any modern user friendly distro, such as ubuntu. It sounds like you are using a distro from 5 years ago, you might want to upgrade. I have no problem doing "real tasks" in linux daily.

Windows certainly has advantages when it comes to hardware and software support, but please don't spread this ridiculous FUD. With compatible hardware linux works great out of the box, even better out of the box than windows in many cases. For example lets take my asus laptop:

When I install windows on it:

I need to install some super crappy/buggy elantech drivers to get the touchpad to work right.
I need to install bloated asus software to get any of the fn keys to work, and the software is terrible (for example the play/pause key is hardcoded to open windows media center)

Installing ubuntu on it all of the above works out of the box, and works much better than it does in windows. Its not always so black and white. Of course if you get some hardware that has ****ty linux compatibility then you may end up having to muck around in the terminal, but you can't expect linux to flawlessly support all hardware out there, especially when hardware manufactorers often don't support linux. With good hardware its quite a pleasure to use. My current laptop is a system76 machine that came with ubuntu and the hardware worked as well out of the box as any windows laptop.

I'm so sick of people spreading this FUD that you are "required to use the terminal all the time" in linux.

And that stuff about linux being graphically slow because of "layers of abstraction" is also ridiculous. Some video cards just don't have particularly well performing linux drivers, its not that linux itself can't handle graphically intense tasks. Linux is commonly used for industry use, like graphical rendering farms, you really think linux just can't handle graphical tasks? Linux can also perform just as well as windows for gaming: [url="http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/08/valves-optimizations-make-linux-port-of-l4d2-outperform-windows-version/"]http://arstechnica.c...indows-version/[/url]

The graphics situation in linux certainly does still have plenty of problems, but saying things like "linux can't handle graphically intensive tasks" is rather absurd.

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[quote name='Mindovermaster' timestamp='1356151218' post='595408850']
Sudo apt-get install SSH-server, you are DONE.

Bunch of 3rd party? Sounds like Windows.
[/quote]

just like natively I dn't think 1st and 3rd party means what you think it does.

you seem to fail to understand that a Linux distro is just a bunch of third party apps thrown together as a single distro. this doesn't make it "native" or first party. it makes it appear native.

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Do you always have to leave a cliffhanger, Hawk?

Does Windows use true blue SSH? I thought it uses a client that mimics SSH. As putty.

Like Viper said, both OS's are better at a task than the other, hardware and software.

And terminal is not your ONLY choice. Although, it is the backbone of Linux. Server distros often don't have a DE.

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[quote name='Mindovermaster' timestamp='1356214339' post='595410192']Does Windows use true blue SSH? I thought it uses a client that mimics SSH. As putty.[/quote]
Mimics? A client or server is either SSH compatible or it's not. That and hate to break it to you, but SSH was ported to Linux as well, it didn't start there. How is that any better/different?

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[quote name='ArialBlue' timestamp='1356154138' post='595408896']
...no good modeling software...
[/quote]

Just to clarify, there is a lot of good modeling software for Linux. Maya, Mudbox for normal modeling. Houdini if you need procedural modeling power. Maya and Houdini(or maybe it predecessor called Prisms) are programs that where first developed for Unix like systems (Irix) and than they came to Windows and OSX.
As for Photoshop, if you work in 3D, there are other programs for texture creation on Linux. The Foundry is a company that develops a lot of post-production and 3D tools. Mari is very good software for texture creation. Nuke is standard for composition used in every movie with ton of 3d effects in last 10 years. Many of those programs where born in post-production houses before they became commercial software. And they where first developed for Linux.

And no, I'm not a Linux user. Linux still stinks in too many places. Windows 7 all the way. Then maybe Windows 8 after Blue update.

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Posted

So what if it's your thread? You post on a public forum, anyone else can post in it. If you feel he is breaking a rule, press the "Report" button. :rolleyes:

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One [b]HUGE[/b] problem with GNU/linux is; backwards compatibility.
Don't let it being open source make you think everything is supported, it isn't.

Gamecube/Wii stuff in 2.x kernel is all open source, NONE of it has been updated to work in 3.x kernels.
Loads of old webcams have stopped working in 3.x kernels too, again the majority of it is open source.

Being open source has it's upsides but it also has huge downsides.

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Posted

How is that a downside? Technology evolves. Windows 7/8 drivers are not compatible with XP either. So? Things have to evolve. The problem with open-source is it is too fragmented, so as you mention, a lot of the software written for an old kernel does not work (this is understandable), but there is no one to update it.

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[i]Cleaned again[/i]

Post on topic or don't post at all. Also, anyone is free to post as long as it's within the rules.

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[quote name='mantragora' timestamp='1356217029' post='595410288']


Just to clarify, there is a lot of good modeling software for Linux. Maya, Mudbox for normal modeling. Houdini if you need procedural modeling power. Maya and Houdini(or maybe it predecessor called Prisms) are programs that where first developed for Unix like systems (Irix) and than they came to Windows and OSX.
As for Photoshop, if you work in 3D, there are other programs for texture creation on Linux. The Foundry is a company that develops a lot of post-production and 3D tools. Mari is very good software for texture creation. Nuke is standard for composition used in every movie with ton of 3d effects in last 10 years. Many of those programs where born in post-production houses before they became commercial software. And they where first developed for Linux.

And no, I'm not a Linux user. Linux still stinks in too many places. Windows 7 all the way. Then maybe Windows 8 after Blue update.
[/quote]
Even if you say this, and lets assume this software would allow theoretical development of equivalent speed;...

Combine this software with Linux lack luster hardware support and you have yourself a slower development environment for high end software.

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[quote name='ArialBlue' timestamp='1356280985' post='595411360']
Even if you say this, and lets assume this software would allow theoretical development of equivalent speed;...

Combine this software with Linux lack luster hardware support and you have yourself a slower development environment for high end software.
[/quote]

It's not theoretical. Every major post-production house uses Linux as a main operating system. Windows and OSX are great for mainstream but when you need to create pipeline in your company, there is nothing better for this task then Linux. You can strip out everything you don't need from Linux and have stability you will not get from other OS's.

And just to add fuel to the fire, rendering on Linux in Houdini is a lot faster than on Windows/OSX. Modeling, animation, simulation, rendering, compositing is at least on the same level on Linux like on Windows/OSX and sometimes even faster.

For small houses (5-10 people) it's easier to use Windows/OSX, but they mostly don't develop their own software/plugins, just use what is available. Anything bigger than 60< and you can bet they have own developers, Linux is prefered OS, all rendering is Linux based and if you see Windows anywhere there it's on picture you found in internet.

You can get faster development environment only with game creation on Windows. And maybe architecture/engineering software (Autocad etc.)

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Posted

Here should show you one thing:

http://www.neowin.net/credits






[quote]
[b] [b]Server Hardware[/b][/b]
[size=3]
Our Servers run the latest stable version of Redhat Enterprise, or CentOS. We use Dell 19" [url="http://www.neowin.net/credits#"][color=#336699][font=inherit][u]rack Servers[/u][/font][/color][/url] hosted on a multi-homed connection, all are Intel Pentium Xeon's with at least 4 GB of system memory per server. Our database is managed by MySQL (latest stable) and we currently run PHP 5 on our Apache servers.[/size]
[/quote]

So that should tell you something... even Neowin runs Linux

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Posted

[quote name='redvamp128' timestamp='1356297254' post='595411732']
So that should tell you something... even Neowin runs Linux
[/quote]

So you're saying Linux makes for terrible web servers then ? :p

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Removed

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[quote name='the evn show' timestamp='1356331047' post='595412330']
Can you cite sources for this please? I've little doubt you could find evidence but so far you're just asserting the claim rather than demonstrating it. You can imagine how frustrating it would be for somebody to come along and assert the opposite (ie: Everyone uses Windows because it's better for some reason). You'd certainly reject their claim but without some evidence to support your position nobody has any reason to believe you.



Which is all wonderful but you'll notice that the majority of the developers, staff, and the content creators (forum posters, news writers, and the people making funny cat videos getting linked to) are using something else. Linux might be a wonderful environment for hosting a website but that's not really making a strong claim for it being suitable for mainstream desktop tasks.

Statements like that work against the position I think you're trying to establish. Even super-nerds who run websites about computers are opting against using Linux for their primary desktop operating system despite being aware of how suitable it is for server duty. How do you propose to explain that?

It's difficult to expand that argument too broadly: the average forum poster probably doesn't think twice about what software runs this website - but the moderators, administrators, developers, and reporters have almost entirely opted for "not linux". I think it's a bit of a stretch to say "Neowin runs on linux" -- the website does, but that focuses on a pretty boring part of the site (putting webpages on the internet) and ignores the part that makes this site different from any other reasonably high-traffic site: the content.
[/quote]

I was curious about the same thing.

I think what examples will probably be available that I could find are these.

[url="http://www.cgsociety.org/index.php/CGSFeatures/CGSFeatureSpecial/industrial_light_magic_deploys_linux_version_of_softimagexsi_v3.0_through_p"]http://www.cgsociety..._v3.0_through_p[/url]


[url="http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Movie_Making_Manual/Linux_in_film_production"]http://en.wikibooks....film_production[/url]






[quote]
[b] Filmmakers[/b][list]
[*][url="http://www.buf.fr/"]BUF[/url]
[*][url="http://www.coredp.com/"]C.O.R.E.[/url]
[*][url="http://www.d2.com/"]Digital Domain[/url] (Titanic)
[*][url="http://news.com.com/HP,+Linux+snag+DreamWorks+deal/2100-1001_3-825967.html"]Dreamworks[/url]
[*][url="http://ilm.com/"]Industrial Light and Magic[/url]
[*][url="http://www.intelligentcreatures.com/"]Intelligent Creatures[/url]
[*][url="http://lamenagerie.com/"]La m

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Posted

[quote name='the evn show' timestamp='1356331047' post='595412330']
Statements like that work against the position I think you're trying to establish. Even super-nerds who run websites about computers are opting against using Linux for their primary desktop operating system despite being aware of how suitable it is for server duty. How do you propose to explain that?
[/quote]

Regarding Neowin it's a site primarily devoted to Windows, so you'd expect the people running the site to use that OS.

I very much doubt that those running sites like omgubuntu or webupd8 are using Windows though.

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[quote name='mantragora' timestamp='1356296654' post='595411718']
It's not theoretical. Every major post-production house uses Linux as a main operating system. Windows and OSX are great for mainstream but when you need to create pipeline in your company, there is nothing better for this task then Linux. You can strip out everything you don't need from Linux and have stability you will not get from other OS's.

And just to add fuel to the fire, rendering on Linux in Houdini is a lot faster than on Windows/OSX. Modeling, animation, simulation, rendering, compositing is at least on the same level on Linux
like on Windows/OSX and sometimes even faster.
[/quote]

This is debatable due to different hardware, different windows versions, different APIs, and different drivers.
I am not trying to say anything negative about anything, but speed can be subjective

[quote]
For small houses (5-10 people) it's easier to use Windows/OSX, but they mostly don't develop their own software/plugins, just use what is available. Anything bigger than 60< and you can bet they have own developers, Linux is prefered OS, all rendering is Linux based and if you see Windows anywhere there it's on picture you found in internet.

You can get faster development environment only with game creation on Windows. And maybe architecture/engineering software (Autocad etc.)
[/quote]

All of the movie studios that I have seen either use a PC or a MAC for 3D development. I used to work for a company in Los Angeles and I met some people doing work down there and Macs were huge there and PC's with 3D rendering hardware and that was in 2006.

I use Linux but for other purposes like PBX software that is open source.

I just dislike the only way to love linux is to hate on windows or mac (or vice versa). That is just too shallow for me, it doesn't matter what you use, nobody cares.
It's completely stupid and pointless.

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[quote name='Yogurtmaster' timestamp='1356339044' post='595412390']
I just dislike the only way to love linux is to hate on windows or mac (or vice versa).
[/quote]

As with everything else you'll only hear about those who are the most vocal about their OS preferences, and those will obviously be the most fanatics.

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I used to love Linux, I loved that I could have a 100% 64 bit OS, I loved bash scripting so I could type "update && cleanup" in a term and it would update and cleanup my system, I loved that everything was under my control and that I was well and truly the master of my system.

Problem is gaming, first thing gaming does is to pretty much force the need to multilib which just rubs me the wrong way, needing duplicate libs of an inferior architecture just because the games publisher won't release a native 64 bit build, as soon as I multilib a system it feels tainted.

The Steam circlejerk has really irked me, needs multilib, ignores the package manager and another point I don't hear mentioned it that a lot of the game ports, including non Steam games are shoddy! Torchlight, running around with no head, still not fixed, HB7 games like Dungeon Defenders absolutely butchered with crazy dependencies, game won't even start it it can't find gnome-screensaver! And people are happy about this and are applauding the developers for basically killing off any hope of pure 64 bit OS's and releasing very shoddy game ports.

I've been back using Windows for the last 6 months or so, I realised that by making a Linux system "gaming ready" you basically throw away everything that makes Linux great and may as well just use Windows.

Edit/ Quick note, everybody can thank Steam for killing off any future 64 bit native releases since they don't distribute 64 bit builds, no game developers/publishers will bother with 64 bit builds, has set things back years, lets applaud them for that!
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Posted

[quote name='the evn show' timestamp='1356331047' post='595412330']
Can you cite sources for this please? I've little doubt you could find evidence but so far you're just asserting the claim rather than demonstrating it. You can imagine how frustrating it would be for somebody to come along and assert the opposite (ie: Everyone uses Windows because it's better for some reason). You'd certainly reject their claim but without some evidence to support your position nobody has any reason to believe you.
[/quote]

[url="http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/4803"]http://www.linuxjour...om/article/4803[/url]
[url="http://digitalproducer.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=415193"]http://digitalproduc...e.jsp?id=415193[/url]
[url="http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/190903/linux_dances_penguins_happy_feet/"]http://www.pcworld.i...ins_happy_feet/[/url]
[url="http://www.cgw.com/Publications/CGW/2001/Volume-24-Issue-9-September-2001-/Linux-Invades-Hollywood.aspx#.UNg1bTXh5lM"]http://www.cgw.com/P...px#.UNg1bTXh5lM[/url]
DR. D from Australia is full CentOS.
Weta is full onboard with Linux from a long time ago.

just to name few. Thats the reality guys. I know this may come as a shock to some but it's the state of the industry. Yeah, if studio works on 3dsmax they are on Windows, they have no other choice. Maya and the rest of pack are different case. Small studios work on Windows because they use all those plugins and they are create mostly for TV. But when you create next "Matrix", "2012" or "Lord of the rings" you will not use Windows for this. Those studios almost certainly had SGI workstations before and the obvious choice for them was only Linux. You have to understand that this market newer was important for Microsoft, it's just too small.

Another thing is support. SideEffect release bugfixes on daily basis. Sometimes even more than once a day. You can even hire them for help just to help develop tools specifically for some shots. The same is for Linux support. Studio can hire specialists and solve problems themself, they don't have to wait for fix to some not working feature. Now try that with Microsoft. Also if you believe that profesional workstations with Quadro cards doesn't offer support for Linux you will be dissapointed.

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[quote name='Yogurtmaster' timestamp='1356339044' post='595412390']
This is debatable due to different hardware, different windows versions, different APIs, and different drivers.
I am not trying to say anything negative about anything, but speed can be subjective.
[/quote]

If 100 people runs Linux/Windows on different configurations and Linux always renders faster thats not subjective. The same comparision but this time with simulation (RBD, Fluids etc.) and times are pair on each system. So how it's possible that rendering is faster but simulation don't ? Parallelism. Rendering is easier to make work on multiple processors than simulation, and Linux is born to work in situations like this, that's why it's faster.

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[quote name='mantragora' timestamp='1356347628' post='595412484']
[url="http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/4803"]http://www.linuxjour...om/article/4803[/url]
[url="http://digitalproducer.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=415193"]http://digitalproduc...e.jsp?id=415193[/url]
[url="http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/190903/linux_dances_penguins_happy_feet/"]http://www.pcworld.i...ins_happy_feet/[/url]
[url="http://www.cgw.com/Publications/CGW/2001/Volume-24-Issue-9-September-2001-/Linux-Invades-Hollywood.aspx#.UNg1bTXh5lM"]http://www.cgw.com/P...px#.UNg1bTXh5lM[/url]
DR. D from Australia is full CentOS.
Weta is full onboard with Linux from a long time ago.

just to name few. Thats the reality guys. I know this may come as a shock to some but it's the state of the industry. Yeah, if studio works on 3dsmax they are on Windows, they have no other choice. Maya and the rest of pack are different case. Small studios work on Windows because they use all those plugins and they are create mostly for TV. But when you create next "Matrix", "2012" or "Lord of the rings" you will not use Windows for this. Those studios almost certainly had SGI workstations before and the obvious choice for them was only Linux. You have to understand that this market newer was important for Microsoft, it's just too small.

Another thing is support. SideEffect release bugfixes on daily basis. Sometimes even more than once a day. You can even hire them for help just to help develop tools specifically for some shots. The same is for Linux support. Studio can hire specialists and solve problems themself, they don't have to wait for fix to some not working feature. Now try that with Microsoft. Also if you believe that profesional workstations with Quadro cards doesn't offer support for Linux you will be dissapointed.
[/quote]

While a lot of 3D studios do use linux, there's no "all" about it, a lot of Maya studios also use windows or both. I think you'll be hard pressed to prove that even "most" 3D studios work in linux, but yes a lot do. not as many now anymore as a lot have started shifting in recent years and other modeling tools have become ore powerful such as MAX, and smaller studios who where windows only with max and lightwave have become bigger studios.

As for the support from microsoft, actually that's how it works with MS, big high end clients like this will get MS engineers on site to help fix problems or for help with specific problems on request. There was a case earlier this year or last year where some major company had a **** up with Office, and even then MS sent out engineers to try to recover important documents.

Besides what does MS have to do with the 3D software vendor fixing problems frequently....

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[quote name='mantragora' timestamp='1356349992' post='595412524']
If 100 people runs Linux/Windows on different configurations and Linux always renders faster thats not subjective. The same comparision but this time with simulation (RBD, Fluids etc.) and times are pair on each system. So how it's possible that rendering is faster but simulation don't ? Parallelism. Rendering is easier to make work on multiple processors than simulation, and Linux is born to work in situations like this, that's why it's faster.
[/quote]

When are we seeing proof of these claims that linux renders faster ? since I do 3D modeling and rendering and I've used both window and linux, I find these claims... wildish. I have not seen any of these supposed magic performance increases on linux.

The reason rendering has traditionally been done one linux, is because in the past many bigger studios like pixar and such made their own renderers(well they still do) and if you're making a renderfarm with your own software, then it's a lot cheaper to hire a linux engineer to manage the OS, on your several hundred rendering machine and get the OS for free, instead of buying one of the extremely expensive server cluster+support licenses from the big linux vendors, and it's cheaper than buying hundreds of windows licenses.
Nowadays, more and more studios are using commercial solutions like finalRender and vRay and Maxwell, for rendering instead of in house renderers. making the choice of renderfarm OS secondary. and it might end up cheaper for them with windows in that case anyway.

Either way the point is, there is no clear divide that all, or even most studios use linux. a lot do, mostly very specific large scale operations that have used linux for a long time. however even these have learnt to adapt and for them it's the talent of the modeller/animator that's important, not the software he uses. so if ILM hires a new guy that's used to using MAX, then he gets a windows workstation with MAX on it. and they have tools for export and collaborative work across platforms.

As for not a market for Microsoft, do you mind looking up the history of a rather well known 3D software called SoftImage, that has in the past been used for a LOT of high budget movies...

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