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Mindovermaster

Linux, as a Whole

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Besides what does MS have to do with the 3D software vendor fixing problems frequently....

I never heard of Microsoft fixing Windows just for some client on daily basis. They always wait till, what day it is , thursday ? 100 million production stopped because dear Microsoft refuses to release fix on monday.

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I never heard of Microsoft fixing Windows just for some client on daily basis. They always wait till, what day it is , thursday ? 100 million production stopped because dear Microsoft refuses to release fix on monday.

what exactly do you think those special hot fixes that you can download form MS through special links sometimes come from ? the ones that say "Not fully tested, only use IF you experience these problems". They come from big clients that have experienced a problem they need fixed and MS fixed it for them.

and as I said, they regularly send out engineers on site for big clients on support contracts, and sometimes even clients without support contracts to help fix issues with the OS or other MS Software(generally Office)

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Truth it, I don't switch to Linux, not because it's bad, but because I couldn't find a reason to do so...

- Windows isn't that expensive, or comes pre-sold with the new PC

- I don't hate MS

- I never had huge problems with Windows (e.g. BSOD etc.)

- It can run everything is need

But, it's not just that... I think Linux - in order to please the crowd - tries to mimic Windows - so unless you're into open source because of the freedom aspect of it, why switch to something that mimics what you already have ? I wish Linux would try a diffrent apporach to PCs, so I could have a choice...but switching the start button to "Linux Mint" button ? What's the point... ?

Also, there are TONS of distros, and they all claim to be the best... I don't have time to test them all, and to spend time with checking if they're up to date... there should be "nexus" style linux. which is always the lastest, official linux installation - it would be easier to keep track of.

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When are we seeing proof of these claims that linux renders faster ? since I do 3D modeling and rendering and I've used both window and linux, I find these claims... wildish. I have not seen any of these supposed magic performance increases on linux.

The reason rendering has traditionally been done one linux, is because in the past many bigger studios like pixar and such made their own renderers(well they still do) and if you're making a renderfarm with your own software, then it's a lot cheaper to hire a linux engineer to manage the OS, on your several hundred rendering machine and get the OS for free, instead of buying one of the extremely expensive server cluster+support licenses from the big linux vendors, and it's cheaper than buying hundreds of windows licenses.

Nowadays, more and more studios are using commercial solutions like finalRender and vRay and Maxwell, for rendering instead of in house renderers. making the choice of renderfarm OS secondary. and it might end up cheaper for them with windows in that case anyway.

Either way the point is, there is no clear divide that all, or even most studios use linux. a lot do, mostly very specific large scale operations that have used linux for a long time. however even these have learnt to adapt and for them it's the talent of the modeller/animator that's important, not the software he uses. so if ILM hires a new guy that's used to using MAX, then he gets a windows workstation with MAX on it. and they have tools for export and collaborative work across platforms.

As for not a market for Microsoft, do you mind looking up the history of a rather well known 3D software called SoftImage, that has in the past been used for a LOT of high budget movies...

You said it yourself - "has in the past" - it was end of the 90's. That's a whooole era in 3D. Now where is Softimage this days ? Barely living on the edge of extinction. ICE developers moved to Maya development team.

Never heard of big production that used Maxwell as main renderer. Please, don't bring "The Pirates, Band of misfits !". This is not movie of LOTR complexity. You don't have this level of control on the shot you get with Arnold, Rman, Mantra, MentalRay with it and that's what is required for shows like LOTR. You can't cheat in Maxwell and many times in those renderers you get shaders that are optimized for specific shot and gives results in seconds that are comparable to shots made with Maxwell in minutes.

You can download yourself copy of Houdini from SideEffects and play with rendering to see difference in speed.

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Maxwell no, but Maxwell is a very specialized renderer and unpractical for animations anyway for Mattes however...VRay and fR however as well as the advanced built in one in MAX which I forget the name of(I was never a fan, it's slow, doesn't provide as good results as fR while using a lot more resources and tweaking of settings and it chokes on large textures) are all major renderers who all run on windows.

And Maya is also windows software. and MAx is of course only windows. but then audodesk is on a roll to buy up all the major 3D software packages as it is.

Also SoftImage "died" long after MS sold them on.

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I like Linux as a hobbyist's tinkering OS, but from a usability POV it's still a pain in the rear end. The charity that I volunteer at has a Linux file server (Ubuntu 12.04) and I couldn't login to the main admin account due to a permissions error with a .ICEauthority file, I needed a complicated command line based workaround just to get to the machine's desktop. Every time I work with Linux it gives me headaches so I am still not currently going to consider it as a genuine Windows replacement. Hopefully Valve porting their games to it will get them to improve things but I still have my doubts.

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I like Linux as a hobbyist's tinkering OS, but from a usability POV it's still a pain in the rear end. The charity that I volunteer at has a Linux file server (Ubuntu 12.04) and I couldn't login to the main admin account due to a permissions error with a .ICEauthority file, I needed a complicated command line based workaround just to get to the machine's desktop. Every time I work with Linux it gives me headaches so I am still not currently going to consider it as a genuine Windows replacement. Hopefully Valve porting their games to it will get them to improve things but I still have my doubts.

So linux isn't userfriendly because you ran into a poorly maintained fileserver? Speaking of anecdotal evidence, I recently had to delve into the registry for an hour on my brother's windows 7 laptop because a virus totally screwed up his windows install, and disabled/removed a bunch of core windows services. :rofl:

Ubuntu is a very userfriendly system, the main reason it can't be considered a full windows replacement for most people is hardware/software support is still lacking very much compared to windows. This can give headaches to new users when they have trouble getting their hardware to work etc... But if you take a system that has good linux support for example, the experience is just as smooth as windows when it comes to hardware, and everything works out of the box. The other issue is a lot of users rely on windows only software, or simply don't realize what alternatives are available (or in some cases they find an alternative and its not as good as the windows version).

My dad's windows laptop recently died, so I just gave him my spare asus to use (which is running ubuntu). He's not very computer literate and I was very suprised how quickly he took to it, he had no problems at all.

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Just one experience on top of all the others Linux has given me ;)

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Do you always have to leave a cliffhanger, Hawk?

Does Windows use true blue SSH? I thought it uses a client that mimics SSH. As putty.

Like Viper said, both OS's are better at a task than the other, hardware and software.

And terminal is not your ONLY choice. Although, it is the backbone of Linux. Server distros often don't have a DE.

While I often agree with you, I think that you are starting to come off as a little rude in this thread. I understand where you're coming from. Maybe this thread isn't what you originally intended it to be. That's OK. Every time someone creates a thread like this on Neowin it ends up more-or-less the same way. I know. If you posted the same thing on the Ubuntu forums it would probably go the opposite way. It plays to people's biases, and that's fine.

As for your point about SSH, you should probably end that line of reasoning. If you look at the SSH history on Wikipedia, it clearly states that while SSH was originally free software, it was primarily developed as a closed-source program by its creator prior to standardization. Since it is, in fact, a standard today, anyone can develop an SSH client/server that will be able to interact with other, similar products on the market, regardless of operating system. SSH is merely a protocol. It doesn't guarantee anything about the data it is tunneling or the characteristics of the shell on the other end. While it is true that the OpenBSD project's OpenSSH is by far the most popular SSH client/server on the market today, it is far from the only one. Tectia SSH is a commercial SSH client/server solution that is designed for Windows, not a nasty Cygwin port of OpenSSH. Similarly, PuTTY is an excellent open-source SSH client for Windows because it adheres to the SSH standard and focuses on providing those standard services to Windows as neatly as possible.

I like Linux as a hobbyist's tinkering OS, but from a usability POV it's still a pain in the rear end. The charity that I volunteer at has a Linux file server (Ubuntu 12.04) and I couldn't login to the main admin account due to a permissions error with a .ICEauthority file, I needed a complicated command line based workaround just to get to the machine's desktop. Every time I work with Linux it gives me headaches so I am still not currently going to consider it as a genuine Windows replacement. Hopefully Valve porting their games to it will get them to improve things but I still have my doubts.

The thing that stands out most to me is that you are using a GUI on a file server. Even Microsoft is working hard to move Windows Server away from GUI dependence! I think the previous admin, or whomever installed the GUI on the server, did something very wrong.

Also, if the "admin account" you refer to is the root account, not a regular user account with elevated privileges, that was probably your issue. Most desktop environments will attempt to prevent you from logging in as root. While it can be done, it is strongly discouraged for security reasons.

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@xorangekiller Thanks for the links. It isn't necessary to establish that all movies ever done are made using Linux "desktop" software and render farms, only that viable options exist and you've done that.

I guess the second part of the question is "So what?" This line of argument (that "Houdini is really good and works on linux") doesn't really appeal to anybody outside of a large visual effects company. It seems to follow the same argument that Mac users used in the 90s "Photoshop is way better on Mac OS 8 than on Windows so everybody uses it" or "Only a fool would even consider doing page layout without QuarkExpress/PageMaker on System 7." Today you might find Windows user making a similar claim using Solidworks: sure it runs on Mac OS X but nobody does it and Windows is clearly the best platform for that tool.

Linux users can easily grant those claims and point out "but even engineers don't play with Solidworks at home: they just browse the web, watch movies, and ship cat photos to grandma." It seems like the reverse strategy would work here too: "Linux has great software if you've got a $100 million dollar visual effects budget to spend?the rest of us are not convinced." It's not like anybody is going to be using that stuff to jazz-up their Christmas morning videos, though you might expect them to do a bit of editing using iMovie, Windows Movie Maker, or maybe even FinalCut/Premiere if they're particularly video-edit savvy. Are their compelling replacements for applications like WMM/iMovie, entry-level NLEs like Vegas, or FinalCutExpress?

Openshot and Pitivi are good easy to use basic video editors similar to windows moviemaker. Not sure about higher-end video editors, but lightworks is coming to linux in the near future.

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I can't wait to see Lightworks for Linux. Should be awesome.

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While I often agree with you, I think that you are starting to come off as a little rude in this thread. I understand where you're coming from. Maybe this thread isn't what you originally intended it to be. That's OK. Every time someone creates a thread like this on Neowin it ends up more-or-less the same way. I know. If you posted the same thing on the Ubuntu forums it would probably go the opposite way. It plays to people's biases, and that's fine.

Well, I know very little of the differences in big boy software. Games don't work 100%, I understand that. But I never got into graphics or video editing. Or even used SSH but for a few minutes. This is from what I know. And everybody seems to contradict me, not teaching me the right way to think. And that is going to get anyone upset. Unlike all the pro's here, you seem to be the only one that fully correct me, just not bitching about it.

(why was this thread opened again? I told the mods to close it, and it was, for a time...)

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Well, I know very little of the differences in big boy software. Games don't work 100%, I understand that. But I never got into graphics or video editing. Or even used SSH but for a few minutes. This is from what I know. And everybody seems to contradict me, not teaching me the right way to think. And that is going to get anyone upset. Unlike all the pro's here, you seem to be the only one that fully correct me, just not bitching about it.

(why was this thread opened again? I told the mods to close it, and it was, for a time...)

There is a guy names Bryan Lunduke who does the annual Why linux (NSFW) S** and what we can do about it.

He said some important things about Linux.

Linux is not about what it does not have but what it could have with your effort to fix it instead of complaining about it.

Where before we complain about Windows or OSX then hope they will fix it for us eventually.

There is where Linux works the best... people see a security flaw or issue.... then report it on a board somewhere then someone is already working on a fix. (then he changed his tone a quick one) Or that person just fixes it and puts it back into the mix.

That is where Linux is different than any other OS on the Market.

Here is his site you might find interesting.

http://lunduke.com/

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except people want to use an OS, not fix it. even programmers, don't open linux source files to fix problems, they program for a living during their work hours, they don't want to fix problems on the OS on their spare time, they want an OS that works, not an OS with "potential".

It's one of the stupidest arguments from the linux camp, and one you hear the most often.

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Very interesting, thanks, redvamp.

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Truth it, I don't switch to Linux, not because it's bad, but because I couldn't find a reason to do so...

- Windows isn't that expensive, or comes pre-sold with the new PC

- I don't hate MS

- I never had huge problems with Windows (e.g. BSOD etc.)

- It can run everything is need

Same here except I'm an OS X user, although, admittedly, I use iOS a lot more these days.

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The thing that stands out most to me is that you are using a GUI on a file server. Even Microsoft is working hard to move Windows Server away from GUI dependence! I think the previous admin, or whomever installed the GUI on the server, did something very wrong.

Also, if the "admin account" you refer to is the root account, not a regular user account with elevated privileges, that was probably your issue. Most desktop environments will attempt to prevent you from logging in as root. While it can be done, it is strongly discouraged for security reasons.

It was not the root account, and the same problem persisted across quite a few of the machine's account. It was just a normal Ubuntu install with a couple of additional parts installed, I'm not sure how exactly it was set up, but unlike Windows putting it straight was not easy. Nor are Microsoft in any sense trying to move away from a GUI, they offer some products without the normal GUI, but their main versions of Windows Server are still GUI enabled. I sure as hell wouldn't want to go all command line when managing servers.

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It was not the root account, and the same problem persisted across quite a few of the machine's account. It was just a normal Ubuntu install with a couple of additional parts installed, I'm not sure how exactly it was set up, but unlike Windows putting it straight was not easy. Nor are Microsoft in any sense trying to move away from a GUI, they offer some products without the normal GUI, but their main versions of Windows Server are still GUI enabled. I sure as hell wouldn't want to go all command line when managing servers.

You never ran a Linux server in terminal, have you?

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Been using Linux for years now (only used Gentoo, never liked the bloated Debian distros) but after Win7 and now Win8 I haven't touched my Gentoo partition. I actually removed it when I installed Win8

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It was not the root account, and the same problem persisted across quite a few of the machine's account. It was just a normal Ubuntu install with a couple of additional parts installed, I'm not sure how exactly it was set up, but unlike Windows putting it straight was not easy. Nor are Microsoft in any sense trying to move away from a GUI, they offer some products without the normal GUI, but their main versions of Windows Server are still GUI enabled. I sure as hell wouldn't want to go all command line when managing servers.

I've never seen that issue in ubuntu. It sounds like they did something to f up permissions. Windows can have permissions issues too.

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I like Linux for some tasks, but the notion that Windows is prohibitively highly priced so therefore I should use Linux is absurd. I agree in its freedoms, but I don't see much benefit in it being free.

Note: Probably 10 years ago, I was highly active in the Linux forums on this website and worked in Linux daily. I still have an affinity for Linux, but don't feel like it is a good desktop solution for me at the moment. In my current field of Engineering, most of the software I use and am invested in is either only available for Windows or best supported in Windows.

If I come across a project where I need a simple database server or some kind of server system, my first thought is Linux because why pay licensing if you can be a weasel...

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Linux has more support than it did 10 years ago

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Nor are Microsoft in any sense trying to move away from a GUI, they offer some products without the normal GUI, but their main versions of Windows Server are still GUI enabled.

I was under the impression that Microsoft is transitioning more roles to Server Core at the request of admins. It would be a shame if they abandon that plan IMHO.

I sure as hell wouldn't want to go all command line when managing servers.

This is where I wholeheartedly disagree with you. I sure as hell wouldn't want to go all GUI when managing servers!

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