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Linux, as a Whole


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#151 +Majesticmerc

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 09:01

If I come across a project where I need a simple database server or some kind of server system, my first thought is Linux because why pay licensing if you can be a weasel...


... What? Are you telling me that if something is legitimately free to download and use, as per the developers wishes, I should be considered a weasel?


#152 ichi

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 11:53

I sure as hell wouldn't want to go all command line when managing servers.


You don't really have to, but still you wouldn't need to have a GUI running on the server. What you'd usually do is getting the server GUI apps to connect to a X server on your computer (be it the actual X or something like xming or ReflectionX).

#153 jaylittle

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 12:40

Disclaimer: I've been using Linux in some form since 1996. I recently switched to using Linux fulltime at home in the beginning of 2012 as I made a new years resolution to do so.

What an interesting discussion we have here. I'd like to make some points on either side:

[1] When discussing software compatibility in Linux, it seems most are content to ignore the existence of WINE. Some of you claim that you cannot move to Linux until it supports your games. WINE doesn't work with all Windows games - but it does work with a large number of them. For instance I just finished playing through Dishonored in Linux and recently began a play through of Borderlands 2 in Linux. Those of you with an interest in WINE's level of compatibility would be well advised to start searching the compatibility database located @ http://www.winehq.com

[2] Listening to people complain about X11 today makes me laugh. I mean its really freaking hilarious. There was a time when I too used to hate X11, but those days are long gone. In fact the majority of the criticisms leveled by the original Unix Haters Handbook are no longer valid. I remember spending time trying to tweak my X11 config files way back when as I desperately tried to guess the horizontal and vertical sync ranges of my CRT. Or even running xf86config. Or any number of inane and stupid things that X11 required me to do to make it work. Somewhere along the way between the infamous XOrg fork and the FreeDesktop movement, most of that stupid **** went away. Good riddens. But seriously, X11 today compared to X11 of yesteryear isn't even a comparison at all. That having been said, I'm still looking forward to Wayland. Which briings me to point 3...

[3] Linux is the most dynamic software environment I have ever had the pleasure of working in. And yes it is also one of the most complicated (at least in today's terms). But to me that is the beauty of Linux. The freedom to choose my packages and tweak the configuration to my heart's content is what drove me to start using Linux full time. Make no mistake, Windows 7 is a spectacular operating system. However that is largely because Microsoft made a lot of choices, the majority of which I agree with, that made for a spectacular user experience. With the development and release of Windows 8 they have walked back and/or abandoned most of that progress. However Windows 8 and Windows 7 both share the same fatal flaw from the perspective of a Linux user: I, as a user, am beholden to what Microsoft thinks. If Microsoft wants to remove the start button, I have to abide by that decision (or install some half ass replacement). If Microsoft wants to replace a perfectly functional Start Menu with a Start Screen, I have to abide by that decision. If Microsoft decides to replace the capable native default Windows apps with half ass default Metro replacements, I have to abide by that. When it comes to Linux, I don't have to abide by anything, regardless of what distribution I install. Don't like with the package the latest release of Ubuntu installs by default? Uninstall it. Don't like the latest Unity/Gnome/KDE/XFCE/Cinnamon changes? Switch to a different desktop environment! Freedom is a powerful elixir my friends.

[4] Linux is suitable for most end users, assuming it is pre-configured for them. Now now I can already hear the cries of anguish arising in response to that statement, so let me be clear. 99.99% of Windows users have to have Windows pre-configured for them as they only upgrade Windows by purchasing a new computer and using whatever version has been pre-installed. Most Windows users do not and cannot install Windows and/or configure it. They are largely incapable of doing that. Linux is no different in this regard. My wife, who I recently switched over to Ubuntu, isn't capable of doing this. She is a fairly typical user who cruises the web, reads email and plays a handful of little games. All of these tasks can be accomplished in native Linux. I simply configured the machine, set it up with Cinnamon, copied her documents over and let her loose on it. It's been a week and she has yet to run into any sort of major issue. She was scared ****less of the switch at first, but it was all for nothing. The switch to Linux has proven to be boring from her perspective :)

[5] Linux is not going to take over the world of end users, ever. I'm guessing most of you didn't see this one coming. The basic reality is this: As time goes on, computer users are becoming less and less capable. This has led them to accept the walled garden environments such as iOS as they seem quite willing to trade away their freedom for ease of use. That mindset is the antithesis of Linux. Linux will become a refuge for those of us who dare to cling to the days in which our computers were simply the blank slates upon which we could create masterpieces. Users want single buttons that encapsulate and automate powerful operations whereas the design philosophy of *nix is about chaining together small capable tools with a singular purpose to achieve greatness. User's cannot handle this environment. They are too used to being coddled and babied. This will not change.

#154 DonnieJim

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 12:51

[5] ...They are too used to being coddled and babied. This will not change.

Do you drive a standard or automatic automobile? Do you use a debit card or still write checks? Do you use a remote control for your tv or do you get up and start pushing buttons?

It has nothing to do with being coddled and babied and everything to do with convenience. Linux is not convenient in any sence of the word for 99% of the population.

#155 jaylittle

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 13:05

When I use a remote control, I'm not losing any functionality. When I use a debit card instead of writing a check, I'm not losing any functionality. When I drive an automatic instead of a manual, I'm not losing any functionality. On the other hand, if I use a Metro application instead of native Windows and/or Linux equivalent, I'm almost certainly going to lose functionality. If I choose iOS as my primary OS, then I'm going to lose functionality by virtue of the fact that I'm no longer free to choose the applications I want without those applications having been approved by Apple beforehand.

#156 Haggis

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 13:16

It has nothing to do with being coddled and babied and everything to do with convenience. Linux is not convenient in any sence of the word for 99% of the population.


I dont understand your point

If you install Ubuntu say onto your computer its come with a built in web browser the same as window

If you want a new browser you go to the website of said browser download the installer and run it, the same as windows

Name one thing that you cant do in linux that you can do in Window that IS the fault of Linux as an OS?

Not being able to play games made for Windows is not a fault of the OS itself its the fault of the developer

If you drive a toyota and you try and put a Land Rover gearbox in it whats gonna happen? its gonna break and not work the same as would happen if you tried to install a rpm in window

so there is your challenge

tell me one thing that Linux cant do that windows can that is the fault of the OS

#157 DonnieJim

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 13:21

When I use a remote control, I'm not losing any functionality. When I use a debit card instead of writing a check, I'm not losing any functionality. When I drive an automatic instead of a manual, I'm not losing any functionality. On the other hand, if I use a Metro application instead of native Windows and/or Linux equivalent, I'm almost certainly going to lose functionality. If I choose iOS as my primary OS, then I'm going to lose functionality by virtue of the fact that I'm no longer free to choose the applications I want without those applications having been approved by Apple beforehand.


what functionality are you losing by using Windows? I do not understand this at all.
You don't think you lose functionality by driving an automatic vs. a standard? Sounds like someone who has never driven one before. Not only are you losing functionality you are losing money. This alone shows that your logic is flawed on so many levels.
I have a feeling if Metro never came out you would still use this argument with any other version of Windows. .
All this talk you have has nothing to do with almost the entire population of the world and has everything to do with tweaking this or tweaking that or whatever get's you going with Linux. But guess what? Almost the entire population doesn't want to know how to do that nor do they care to learn it. Windows and IOS are convenient and they just work.

tell me one thing that Linux cant do that windows can that is the fault of the OS

The fault of the OS? Play ALL of my games WITHOUT having to add 3rd party apps.
Compatablility with new hardware. Sure, you can blame vendors for this but in reality, if Linux was as popular as you want it to be then this would not be an issue.
Customer Service when your internet goes out or your computer crashes. Who you going to call? Your kid neighbor? Doubtful.
If the OS was as remarkable as some people try to make it , It would be a standard on prebuilts and it would be readily available in retail stores. That is a fault of Linux.
Photoshop. Gimp bites. Oh yea, I could use wine. Yay.
I could go on but the fact is that nobady (or almost no one) gives a rat's behind about Linux as a useful alternative to Linux. That's just truth.

#158 Haggis

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 13:33

The fault of the OS? Play ALL of my games WITHOUT having to add 3rd party apps.
Compatablility with new hardware. Sure, you can blame vendors for this but in reality, if Linux was as popular as you want it to be then this would not be an issue.
Customer Service when your internet goes out or your computer crashes. Who you going to call? Your kid neighbor? Doubtful. That's two things. If the OS was as remarkable as some people try to make it , It would be a standard on prebuilts and it would be readily available in retail stores. That is a fault of Linux.


You either did not read what i wrote or fail to understand

Your games are written for WINDOWS not linux thats the developers fault not the OS

what happens if you download Tux Racer rpm and try to install it on windows?

It breaks because IT'S written for linux not windows


Also does Windows not need drivers and other software such as DirectX to play games?
regarding your second comment on customer service

If your not intelligent enough to use Linux or to read and search online if something goes wrong then why use it in the first place?

I dont dismantle my car enough just because i fancy trying something new i leave it to the people that know what they are doing and can deal with any problems that arise, again this is not the OS fault

#159 DonnieJim

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 13:42

Your games are written for WINDOWS not linux thats the developers fault not the OS]

That is 100% wrong. It is the fault of the OS for why developers do not create for Linux.

Also does Windows not need drivers and other software such as DirectX to play games?

Installed with a new game installation by default. Sorry.

If your not intelligent enough to use Linux or to read and search online if something goes wrong then why use it in the first place?


If someone has to research online on how to use thier OS then to me that isn't a very friendly OS. ( Windows 8 is included in that)
The ONLY benefit for using Linux is that it's free. Provided you do not care of how much wasted time you use to "research" how to use it
It's a hobby OS and nothing more.

#160 Haggis

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 13:55

That is 100% wrong. It is the fault of the OS for why developers do not create for Linux.



Installed with a new game installation by default. Sorry.



If someone has to research online on how to use thier OS then to me that isn't a very friendly OS.
The ONLY benefit for using Linux is that it's free. Provided you do not care of how much wasted time you use to "research" how to use it
It's a hobby OS and nothing more ( talking bout the average user).



ok lets break this down lol

1. Its the developers choice not to make it work in Linux hence not the OS fault

2. Direct X is installed with the game its still something extra needed to install to make it work hence mute point you still need drivers for graphics and such in the basic sense so third party software still needs to be installed

3. Have you seen the wealth of information on google around problems people have with windows? so again your wrong the AVERAGE user will use the internet to research something that they do not know how to do, unless of course they are too lazy to and they then call tech support


As i said though if you dont want to look into stuff, research stuff or try and learn something new then dont do it, its that simple

People did not just pick up DOS when it first came out and instantly knew how to use it, same goes for windows, have you ever used Windows 3.1?

#161 HawkMan

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 14:10

[1] When discussing software compatibility in Linux, it seems most are content to ignore the existence of WINE. Some of you claim that you cannot move to Linux until it supports your games. WINE doesn't work with all Windows games - but it does work with a large number of them. For instance I just finished playing through Dishonored in Linux and recently began a play through of Borderlands 2 in Linux. Those of you with an interest in WINE's level of compatibility would be well advised to start searching the compatibility database located @ http://www.winehq.com

[2] Listening to people complain about X11 today makes me laugh. I mean its really freaking hilarious. There was a time when I too used to hate X11, but those days are long gone. In fact the majority of the criticisms leveled by the original Unix Haters Handbook are no longer valid. I remember spending time trying to tweak my X11 config files way back when as I desperately tried to guess the horizontal and vertical sync ranges of my CRT. Or even running xf86config. Or any number of inane and stupid things that X11 required me to do to make it work. Somewhere along the way between the infamous XOrg fork and the FreeDesktop movement, most of that stupid **** went away. Good riddens. But seriously, X11 today compared to X11 of yesteryear isn't even a comparison at all. That having been said, I'm still looking forward to Wayland. Which briings me to point 3...


1. Wine is not the same as native, and not everything runs in it, especially not very well

2. So when I installed Ubuntu the other day n my older gaming laptop with an Nvidia 7800GT, I then change the display driver from the nouveau crap to one of the official proprietary drivers, Not only did I lose my display resolution o 1400x900 ish, and only get 12800 resolutions as the max option, I also lose all the panels in Unity. oh well switching a bit back and forth and relogging and rebooting, still the same issue. Switch back to the crap nouveau driver, and the unity interface is back (I was able to get to the driver change interface by goign to the right click and change wallpaper menu and then back to the main control panel, if you want to call that limited POS a control panel), However I'm still at a horrible scaled 1280 desktop, not only that, but it thinks my display is a lower res so I have to scroll the desktop even on that res.

at this point the only way to get back the correct display is to edit the config files. X11 is better than it was true. it's still pretty bad though, and with hardware acceleration, they're still not able to fix tearing... in a fricken accelerated GUI. That **** should just not be acceptable today.

I'll have to see if Mint handles changing my display driver to the proprietary one better.

When I use a remote control, I'm not losing any functionality. When I use a debit card instead of writing a check, I'm not losing any functionality. When I drive an automatic instead of a manual, I'm not losing any functionality. On the other hand, if I use a Metro application instead of native Windows and/or Linux equivalent, I'm almost certainly going to lose functionality. If I choose iOS as my primary OS, then I'm going to lose functionality by virtue of the fact that I'm no longer free to choose the applications I want without those applications having been approved by Apple beforehand.


Meanwhile Windows 8 allows you to run regular win32 apps as well. so you're not losing any functionality, what was your argument again ?

if you're going to bring WinRT into that discussion, you better also complain why you can't run regular linux apps on Android. but then you'd have to decide what linux standard apps that can't run there. gnome, KDE, what standard library packages and so on.

what happens if you download Tux Racer rpm and try to install it on windows?


What happens if you download the tux racer rpm and run it on any of the distros that don't use rpm...

#162 Haggis

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 14:12

What happens if you download the tux racer rpm and run it on any of the distros that don't use rpm...


Thats Pedantic lol

Ok what happens if you download anything and run it on a system its not written for lol

#163 DonnieJim

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 14:12

ok lets break this down lol

1. Its the developers choice not to make it work in Linux hence not the OS fault


That is 100%!! wrong! WHAT are thier reasons for not developing for Linux???
Give me an example....

Direct X is installed with the game its still something extra needed to install to make it work hence mute point you still need drivers for graphics and such in the basic sense so third party software still needs to be installed


Third party software that is ALREADY included with the hardware you buy. There is no need to go looking for some driver in hopes that it will work. IT'S INCLUDED. Talk about grasping.......


... unless of course they are too lazy to and they then call tech support

Lazy? No, smart. Sure most people can and do look things up but to deny that tech support is a lazy way of figuring out a problem? ..........grasping meet straw..

#164 Max Norris

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 14:20

That is 100% wrong. It is the fault of the OS for why developers do not create for Linux.

This I partially agree with; it's not the OS at fault as in "they can't develop for it", but it's the OS's market share at fault that they won't.. there's just no financial incentive for them to spend a lot of money on a port for something that's currently at a tiny market share. Indie/freebies aside, some games cost a ridiculous amount of money to make, the publishers are going to want a return on that investment. Maybe Gabe might do something for this between Steam and the SteamBox, who knows, didn't do much for OSX but more power to 'em.

what happens if you download Tux Racer rpm and try to install it on windows? It breaks because IT'S written for linux not windows

Why use an RPM though when there's a Windows build of the game? ;D

So when I installed Ubuntu the other day n my older gaming laptop with an Nvidia 7800GT, I then change the display driver from the nouveau crap to one of the official proprietary drivers, * snip * so I have to scroll the desktop even on that res.

I actually had pretty decent results with nVidia.. not quite as good as I get with Windows but quite acceptable for the most part, sans a bit of multi-monitor weirdness occasionally. It's ATI that makes me want to smash my fist thru the displays.. the open source drivers are slow, the proprietary ones are buggy as all hell, and that's assuming they even support the card any more, a good number have been retired, forcing a freeze on updating the X server. Thanks for that, ATI.

As far as Wine goes, I prefer not to use it. Nice when it works, but overall it's (for me) a crutch. It basically boils down to one OS running everything I need, the other doesn't without tricks or emulation, if at all. If I'm using a compatibility layer, virtual machine or dual booting, that's a huge flag that the OS isn't doing what I need it to do. I've been using *Nix consistently before Linux was even a reality and I love it for a server environment, but I still prefer Windows on the desktop, bar none.

Third party software that is ALREADY included with the hardware you buy. There is no need to go looking for some driver in hopes that it will work. IT'S INCLUDED. Talk about grasping.......

Nothing unique to either OS. They both have dependencies for drivers and API's, if they're not there you have to get them one way or another, and more often than not it's already included with your installed OS or pulled in automatically.

#165 Haggis

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 14:21

That is 100%!! wrong! WHAT are thier reasons for not developing for Linux???
Give me an example....



Third party software that is ALREADY included with the hardware you buy. There is no need to go looking for some driver in hopes that it will work. IT'S INCLUDED. Talk about grasping.......


3. Have you seen the wealth of information on google around problems people have with windows? so again your wrong the AVERAGE user will use the internet to research something that they do not know how to do, unless of course they are too lazy to and they then call tech support


Lazy? No, smart. Sure most people can and do look things up but to deny that tech support is a lazy way of figuring out a problem? ..........grasping meet straw..


1. I dont know thier reasons but there is games for Linux and developers make the choice not to develop for Linux
2. You made the arguement you dont need to install 3rd party software but in the very basic sense you do in all operating systems

3. i am not saying Tech Support is the Lazy way but its the easy way, this is the reason people dont learn they rely on other people to do stuff for them, my gran is not very computer savvy but she will have a search on google to see if she can fix her problem before calling me

Lets put it in a nice simple way for you

You want to cook Duck with Orange Sauce

you dont know how to do it....oh no what should you do....i know get a recipe book and read up on how to do it

everything in life requires a little bit of research with the exception of breathing and going to the toilet but even then you still have to learn how to wipe your own arse lol