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#61 OP Mindovermaster

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 00:46

Really, guys, if you want to bitch about Windows being better than Linux, get the **** out of here. This was not a comparison between the two. It is my two cents.


#62 MFH

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:21

Linux = NO VIDEO GAMES.. Steam doesn't run on it


Why the hell do all Linux users now think that Steam means that all interessting games will run on Linux?
Guess what: I don't use Steam, I don't even consider to buy games that depend on Steam!

So if you take Steam out of the equation what's the story on professional games for Linux again?

#63 Detection

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:23

Really, guys, if you want to bitch about Windows being better than Linux, get the **** out of here. This was not a comparison between the two. It is my two cents.


Umm, you started it

Quote from OP

------

Hey guys, it's very odd to me. I've been 100% on Ubuntu (12.10 x64) for 2 months straight and never looked back to Windows 7. Well, except to help my Mom on her computer.

Everything just... works. While I had a few problems along the way, I broke through them. Help is there, all you need to do is look for it.

Oddly enough, my Dad was intrigued by it as well. I put it on his laptop a few months ago, and he loves it. He wants it on his desktop, too.

Yeah, you get the people who say, "Why switch?", "Linux isn't compatible", "It looks ugly". With a little know how, you can do anything in Linux, in some cases more, than you can do in Windows.


#64 @Leo

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:23

Do yourself and everyone on Neowin a favour a delete your account please, I cannot for the love of god figure why you'd make such idiotic comments other than trying to look as if you know something. As for Linux, use it if you want to for what you want, just don't harp on and on and b*tch continuously, you aren't entitled to sqat..... jesus the level of ignorance on Neowin is starting to irritate me :crazy:

Since you are intolerable of opinions that might not fit your world view, how about you disconnect you network cable? The internet seems to be full of such opinions. While you are at it, recompile your kernel.

I use Monodevelop, and QTCreator.. they feel professional grade to me. Thunderbird is an awesome mail client that I can skin to match my theme. Everything I want I can find.
Hmm.. my Arch linux install looks 1000x better than the **** that "the actual designers" made Windows 8 look like.
Right, Linux = NO VIDEO GAMES.. Steam doesn't run on it, Nvidia and ATI Didn't make any drivers, No one has ever written their own drivers, no video games will run at all like.. not even pong. /s
Get over yourself.

Typical zealot response. And I am sure GIMP is a perfectly functional replacement for Photoshop. And OpenOffice is as powerful as Microsoft Office. :laugh:
Oh right, Steam on Linux hahaha. How many games are there for Linux on that? (Or on Mac, for that matter.)
Linux AMD and nVidia drivers are abysmal. Horrible. Have to fallback to the opensource crap, which is even worse.

Windows 8 is atrocious. I agree. But that has 1% marketshare (more than Linux). On the other hand, Windows 7 has a vast library of top quality software, much more consistent and visually pleasing than most Linux software. Who cares how Metro looks. It is dead in the water. Windows 3.11 is more pleasing than Windows 8 Metro.

Do yourself a favor, open your eyes. You like Linux and that is fine. There is plenty to like. But criticism is criticism, and accepting it can only improve the situation, not worsen it.

Okay, fair point. However, this fact is also true of any operating system. Macs were, for a long time (still?) the go to desktop for creative designers for their good media editing software. Adobe favoured Mac OS over Windows for many years, and this shows in the UI designs in the likes of Photoshop. I'm a professional software developer, and most of my home/work projects can be done on either Windows or Linux. This might not be the case for many people, but it is for me, which is why I use Linux.

FWIW, I think you're concept of "bad UI and ugly ugly software" in Linux is outdated. Check out the Linux desktops threads and the likes of new Ubuntu or Elementary OS for a better picture of modern Linux. Things are much more pleasing to the eye these days.

I think I was a little hyperbolic with this statement. What I should have said was:

"Many of the people that I know who use Linux on a regular basis find it to be a perfectly viable operating system, and they do not really seek it to be the #1 operating system. The fact that it works for them is enough. The majority of people I hear/read making statements like "2013 will be the year of Linux on the desktop" are the clueless fanatics, or the haters whose only argument against Linux is that it has a minor market share".

I install every Ubuntu release in a VM. I don't bother with others, as Ubuntu is the most visually consistent of the major distributions. I have been doing so since 2009. I agree that there is a huge improvement, but on the large scale, when compared to Windows or especially OS X, there is still a long long way to go. I also dislike the "touch-friendly" direction that Ubuntu is taking, but that is for another discussion. Generally, I agree that an Ubuntu install out of the box looks well.
But the problem isn't how the desktop looks 1 min after install. The problem is the software. For example, take a look at the Elementary OS "Discover" page: http://elementaryos..../when-its-ready
Starts well, very OS X like (too much, if I might add). Now scroll down. Notice the screenshot of "Files". Notice how inconsistent it is. Here lies the problem. There is no consistency in the software. Everything looks completely different. There are no accepted human interface guidelines, and each piece of software adheres to different rules, different visual cues, different visual art. Often, it is the developers that decide how the software should look, and they do a ****-poor job at it. I am a developer, I know. :laugh:

I will analogue this to the Windows world. Have you ever run a Java app on Windows? Know how different it feels, because it isn't using native widgets, doesn't follow HIG (it has to please cross-platform users). That's how Linux software feels to me. But it's not just one app, it's almost every.

Now, add to that the lack of basic missing features, such as ****-poor font selection, lack of advanced typography (for example, ligature support was added only recently to the office suites, and is still very unstable), etc. make the overall package very unattractive. And these are important aspects. I know, you are a developer (I am too), your first instinct is to roll your eyes at things such as fonts, colors, consistency. But if you stop for a few moments and think about it, you will see this is at the utmost importance. More so than what kernel is underneath, what GNOME/xfce build number is installed, etc.

Really, I do not see why people fear criticism so much, and why zealots pop blood vessels every time someone posts a criticism of Linux. My pointing out of shortcomings are not with the intention to mock, but of wanting things to improve.

Cheers.

#65 OP Mindovermaster

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:43

Umm, you started it

...


There's one teenie tiny letter in there...

I

It is how I never looked back. Not how you perceive it. If you hate Linux because it can't do this or that, I'm happy for you.

I thought that "You can do anything in Linux, in some cases more, than you can do in Windows." was like common knowledge. I should have said most anything. Yes, some software can only be run in Windows. It's not a hidden fact. Try doing SSH in Windows. Yes, it can be done, but not natively. Can you install 20 applications with one click? Try running EX4 in Windows, out of the box.

#66 Detection

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:49

There's one teenie tiny letter in there...

I

It is how I never looked back. Not how you perceive it. If you hate Linux because it can't do this or that, I'm happy for you.

I thought that "You can do anything in Linux, in some cases more, than you can do in Windows." was like common knowledge. I should have said most anything. Yes, some software can only be run in Windows. It's not a hidden fact. Try doing SSH in Windows. Yes, it can be done, but not natively. Can you install 20 applications with one click? Try running EX4 in Windows, out of the box.


You should already know, if you say anything even vaguely comparing two OSs, especially Linux and Windows, your thread is going to turn into an OS flame war

I thought that was common knowledge

#67 +Majesticmerc

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:56

I install every Ubuntu release in a VM. I don't bother with others, as Ubuntu is the most visually consistent of the major distributions. I have been doing so since 2009. I agree that there is a huge improvement, but on the large scale, when compared to Windows or especially OS X, there is still a long long way to go. I also dislike the "touch-friendly" direction that Ubuntu is taking, but that is for another discussion. Generally, I agree that an Ubuntu install out of the box looks well.
But the problem isn't how the desktop looks 1 min after install. The problem is the software. For example, take a look at the Elementary OS "Discover" page: http://elementaryos..../when-its-ready
Starts well, very OS X like (too much, if I might add). Now scroll down. Notice the screenshot of "Files". Notice how inconsistent it is. Here lies the problem. There is no consistency in the software. Everything looks completely different. There are no accepted human interface guidelines, and each piece of software adheres to different rules, different visual cues, different visual art. Often, it is the developers that decide how the software should look, and they do a ****-poor job at it. I am a developer, I know. :laugh:

I will analogue this to the Windows world. Have you ever run a Java app on Windows? Know how different it feels, because it isn't using native widgets, doesn't follow HIG (it has to please cross-platform users). That's how Linux software feels to me. But it's not just one app, it's almost every.

Now, add to that the lack of basic missing features, such as ****-poor font selection, lack of advanced typography (for example, ligature support was added only recently to the office suites, and is still very unstable), etc. make the overall package very unattractive. And these are important aspects. I know, you are a developer (I am too), your first instinct is to roll your eyes at things such as fonts, colors, consistency. But if you stop for a few moments and think about it, you will see this is at the utmost importance. More so than what kernel is underneath, what GNOME/xfce build number is installed, etc.

Really, I do not see why people fear criticism so much, and why zealots pop blood vessels every time someone posts a criticism of Linux. My pointing out of shortcomings are not with the intention to mock, but of wanting things to improve.

Cheers.


Fair point again, I don't really think it's fair to say that Linux GUIs are all mega ugly though. Maybe it's just the software I've got installed, but I wouldn't call any of them hideously bad except Netbeans, which, funnily enough, is a Java application. I do tend towards GTK applications over anything else though, so I guess it all just comes okay. Linux's problem with GUIs is the fact that the Gnome and KDE teams both decided to back different GUI Toolkits. Gnome went with GTK, and KDE went with Qt. The end result is that we end up with a mash of differently styled GUIs. Add in the likes of TK, JavaFX, Mono, etc and it all goes downhill from there The beauty of choice in this case is also a disadvantage.

Then again, I guess maybe I just don't notice this stuff so much?

I think Linux font selection is getting better, you just have to know what to look for because the defaults for most distros are cack. Droid sans looks good on XFCE, and the new Adobe Source Sans does too, but mostly I'll just install the Windows 7 fonts when I get chance :laugh:.

I also agree that developers can't design worth a damn. Every time I try, I get stressed out because I can't translate what's in my head onto the screen, and then when I can, it's because I want to "try something new", which just ****es a bunch of people off :p

There's one teenie tiny letter in there...

I

It is how I never looked back. Not how you perceive it. If you hate Linux because it can't do this or that, I'm happy for you.

I thought that "You can do anything in Linux, in some cases more, than you can do in Windows." was like common knowledge. I should have said most anything. Yes, some software can only be run in Windows. It's not a hidden fact. Try doing SSH in Windows. Yes, it can be done, but not natively. Can you install 20 applications with one click? Try running EX4 in Windows, out of the box.


Sure it's detracted past your original post, but it's a civil discussion on why other people chose Linux (or didn't), I don't see any OS trolling here per se. Be proud that you created a decent and thought provoking topic :).

#68 Yogurtmaster

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:05

I would like to see many areas of Linux modernized when it comes to multimedia.

I know a lot of people are going to hate me for this..

1) Get rid of X windows completely (do a complete rewrite) yes I saw Wayland, but it needs more effort behind it.
2) Get rid of the horrible sound drivers and put something in that is low latency to begin with.
3) Unify code bases, and UI (don't have the programmers create the UI either, get people that are UI experts in the field)

When I use Linux, very little of it feels really that innovative. I know Unity is trying to build out the type interface like Ubuntu, but what about other aspects without typing.

I think when security is as good as Unix that is fine, but when the OS is too much like Unix, that isn't fine. Innovate and bring something new or go home. This is how I feel.
I don't mean 12 different versions of UI, that is not working together towards a common goal.

#69 redvamp128

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:17

Since you are intolerable of opinions that might not fit your world view, how about you disconnect you network cable? The internet seems to be full of such opinions. While you are at it, recompile your kernel.


Typical zealot response. And I am sure GIMP is a perfectly functional replacement for Photoshop. And OpenOffice is as powerful as Microsoft Office. :laugh:
Oh right, Steam on Linux hahaha. How many games are there for Linux on that? (Or on Mac, for that matter.)
Linux AMD and nVidia drivers are abysmal. Horrible. Have to fallback to the opensource crap, which is even worse.

Windows 8 is atrocious. I agree. But that has 1% marketshare (more than Linux). On the other hand, Windows 7 has a vast library of top quality software, much more consistent and visually pleasing than most Linux software. Who cares how Metro looks. It is dead in the water. Windows 3.11 is more pleasing than Windows 8 Metro.

Do yourself a favor, open your eyes. You like Linux and that is fine. There is plenty to like. But criticism is criticism, and accepting it can only improve the situation, not worsen it.


I install every Ubuntu release in a VM. I don't bother with others, as Ubuntu is the most visually consistent of the major distributions. I have been doing so since 2009. I agree that there is a huge improvement, but on the large scale, when compared to Windows or especially OS X, there is still a long long way to go. I also dislike the "touch-friendly" direction that Ubuntu is taking, but that is for another discussion. Generally, I agree that an Ubuntu install out of the box looks well.
But the problem isn't how the desktop looks 1 min after install. The problem is the software. For example, take a look at the Elementary OS "Discover" page: http://elementaryos..../when-its-ready
Starts well, very OS X like (too much, if I might add). Now scroll down. Notice the screenshot of "Files". Notice how inconsistent it is. Here lies the problem. There is no consistency in the software. Everything looks completely different. There are no accepted human interface guidelines, and each piece of software adheres to different rules, different visual cues, different visual art. Often, it is the developers that decide how the software should look, and they do a ****-poor job at it. I am a developer, I know. :laugh:

I will analogue this to the Windows world. Have you ever run a Java app on Windows? Know how different it feels, because it isn't using native widgets, doesn't follow HIG (it has to please cross-platform users). That's how Linux software feels to me. But it's not just one app, it's almost every.

Now, add to that the lack of basic missing features, such as ****-poor font selection, lack of advanced typography (for example, ligature support was added only recently to the office suites, and is still very unstable), etc. make the overall package very unattractive. And these are important aspects. I know, you are a developer (I am too), your first instinct is to roll your eyes at things such as fonts, colors, consistency. But if you stop for a few moments and think about it, you will see this is at the utmost importance. More so than what kernel is underneath, what GNOME/xfce build number is installed, etc.

Really, I do not see why people fear criticism so much, and why zealots pop blood vessels every time someone posts a criticism of Linux. My pointing out of shortcomings are not with the intention to mock, but of wanting things to improve.

Cheers.


Not going to pick your posts apart too much--

Gaming on LInux --

http://en.wikipedia....OpenGL_programs
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Linux_gaming

Now you talk about the font rendering- Now your problem may be that you are running it in a VM which can't use a propitiatory driver. I would suggest installing Linux through Wubi to have a compressed image install where you will then be able to install Propitiatory Drivers.

The reason I suggest using Wubi is so that after a month you can easily remove it leaving your Windows Untouched through the Programs and Features.


I personally use Linux more than Windows because I can create my own themes when I choose too and am not STUCK with Windows ones or have to pay some things like stardock to have a replacement.

With a few clicks and I can change from KDE to Gnome - Cinnamon or LXDE just to name a few.

I run Ubuntu and if you look at my screenshot it is not the "Touch Friendly" as you describe.

I have no issues you describe about the scroll for me it is smooth both on my Old laptop and My newer desktop.

Actually to me Elementary looks horrid.

But then again I have not made the 100% switch either.

#70 @Leo

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:22

Not going to pick your posts apart too much--

Gaming on LInux --

http://en.wikipedia....OpenGL_programs
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Linux_gaming

Now you talk about the font rendering- Now your problem may be that you are running it in a VM which can't use a propitiatory driver. I would suggest installing Linux through Wubi to have a compressed image install where you will then be able to install Propitiatory Drivers.

The reason I suggest using Wubi is so that after a month you can easily remove it leaving your Windows Untouched through the Programs and Features.


I personally use Linux more than Windows because I can create my own themes when I choose too and am not STUCK with Windows ones or have to pay some things like stardock to have a replacement.

With a few clicks and I can change from KDE to Gnome - Cinnamon or LXDE just to name a few.

I run Ubuntu and if you look at my screenshot it is not the "Touch Friendly" as you describe.

I have no issues you describe about the scroll for me it is smooth both on my Old laptop and My newer desktop.

Actually to me Elementary looks horrid.

But then again I have not made the 100% switch either.

I did not mean font smoothing. That works and looks fine. I mean actual "advanced" font rendering, such as font kerning, contextual ligatures, glyph variants, etc. This has nothing to do with drivers, but the actual font renderer.

Regarding Linux gaming, you do not need to convince me that it is possible to game. I know. But native Linux games are very few and far between. The reason for this is very small market share.

#71 ingramator

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:35

Wow relax guys! I use many many many operating systems, UNIX based, Linux based, Windows and OSX (couple of low level micro controller ones as well :p). You cannot argue that Linux operating systems are better than Windows, you just can't. I'm a great fan of linux and have everything from Backtrack 5R3 to Ubuntu 12.10 but to do anything, you have to be pretty savvy. I have to hit up the CLI-every time, editing configs-all the time, getting kernel panics from corrupt drivers/dodgy memory writes- all the time. Windows made the PC popular because it was easy to use and everything worked- hardware and software. If you are on;y going on Facebook and that is all you do, then yeah you can use Linux. Want to manage databases, write up documents/spreadsheets/presentations/schematics/technical diagrams then you're stuck with Windows. Want to edit videos/music or anything else then windows( or maybe OSX)

#72 HawkMan

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:43

There's one teenie tiny letter in there...

I

It is how I never looked back. Not how you perceive it. If you hate Linux because it can't do this or that, I'm happy for you.

I thought that "You can do anything in Linux, in some cases more, than you can do in Windows." was like common knowledge. I should have said most anything. Yes, some software can only be run in Windows. It's not a hidden fact. Try doing SSH in Windows. Yes, it can be done, but not natively. Can you install 20 applications with one click? Try running EX4 in Windows, out of the box.


I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the word "natively". or you don't understand how linux actually works. either way...

as for steam and gaming and open GL.

1: steam coming to linux does not mean games will be coming to linux, and for those saying games used to be both DX and OGL. well sorry to burst your bubbles, but just because a game is OGL doesn't make it easy to port to Linux. you still have all the actual hard work to do.

#73 @Leo

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:45

1: steam coming to linux does not mean games will be coming to linux, and for those saying games used to be both DX and OGL. well sorry to burst your bubbles, but just because a game is OGL doesn't make it easy to port to Linux. you still have all the actual hard work to do.

And even if a game is OGL and easy to port, does not mean that publishers would actually port games and support them. :laugh:

#74 Growled

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:42

Wow relax guys! I use many many many operating systems, UNIX based, Linux based, Windows and OSX (couple of low level micro controller ones as well :p). You cannot argue that Linux operating systems are better than Windows, you just can't. I'm a great fan of linux and have everything from Backtrack 5R3 to Ubuntu 12.10 but to do anything, you have to be pretty savvy. I have to hit up the CLI-every time, editing configs-all the time, getting kernel panics from corrupt drivers/dodgy memory writes- all the time. Windows made the PC popular because it was easy to use and everything worked- hardware and software. If you are on;y going on Facebook and that is all you do, then yeah you can use Linux. Want to manage databases, write up documents/spreadsheets/presentations/schematics/technical diagrams then you're stuck with Windows. Want to edit videos/music or anything else then windows( or maybe OSX)


I love Linux and it took me a long time to finally admit that there is a lot of great software that is available for Windows that you can't get for Linux. And basically without apps you are sunk.

#75 OP Mindovermaster

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 04:16

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the word "natively". or you don't understand how linux actually works. either way...


na·tive (nPosted ImagePosted ImagetPosted Imagev)
adj.
1. Existing in or belonging to one by nature; innate: native ability.
2. Being such by birth or origin: a native Scot.
3. Being one's own because of the place or circumstances of one's birth: our native land.
4. Originating, growing, or produced in a certain place or region; indigenous: a plant native to Asia.
5.
a. Being a member of the original inhabitants of a particular place.
b. Of, belonging to, or characteristic of such inhabitants: native dress; the native diet of Polynesia.
6. Occurring in nature pure or uncombined with other substances: native copper.
7. Natural; unaffected: native beauty.
8. Archaic Closely related, as by birth or race.
9. Biochemistry Of or relating to the naturally occurring conformation of a macromolecule, such as a protein.

Sounds exactly what I mean. SSH is naturally Linux, EX4 is naturally Linux. Windows didn't create it first.



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