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Mum vs Windows 8 - attempting a shutdown

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I shouldn't have to use a 3rd party tool or "hack" to do something that was there in the first place. If I'm replacing the shell, why did I buy Windows 8?

If you don't like how Windows 8 works, then did you buy Windows 8?

This has been debated endlessly before and just ends up been a flame fest and this thread is going the same way, this video can't have been posted for any other reason but to re-open the age old debate, about time it was put to bed forever and people moved on from it.

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Classic shell fixed most of the issues I had -- hide all the hot corners, bring back start button, voila, you get Windows 7 Part 2.

But there are dire consequences of Microsoft abandoning the desktop, for instance HIG. Windows was always weak in enforcing application design guidelines, and at the moment they don't even exist, so most apps look horrible next to each other, each one goes by their own invented guidelines instead of trying to follow common rules. You can say "but hey, it's all about the Modern UI now, desktop apps should focus on porting to that," to which I say that Modern UI has no place on the desktop in the first place, at least not in the shape it is right now. It's a vicious cycle, really, and I'm willing to bet it will hurt Microsoft in the long run.

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I don't know, why did you? I can't answer that for you. That's ignoring the obvious fact that you still have access to all the Windows software, etc etc, regardless of what shell or start menu you use.

You mention Linux being flexible as a positive thing, yet having that exact sort of flexibility in Windows is a bad thing. Biased much?

I think I understand what he's talking about, most users of Linux are advanced users so a common user interface doesn't matter. Windows, on the other hand, is on about 95% of the worlds computers and the majority of those users are beginners so a common user interface is required, making flexibility a bad thing.

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I don't know, why did you? I can't answer that for you. That's ignoring the obvious fact that you still have access to all the Windows software, etc etc, regardless of what shell or start menu you use.

You mention Linux being flexible as a positive thing, yet having that exact sort of flexibility in Windows is a bad thing. Biased much?

Hey, man I'm just telling it like it is. There's no need to get snotty. I understand I have access to all the Windows software. Replacing critical system files is not stable. I use Windows because of it's stability and sheer horse power. I don't want to be messing with bugs and issues related to replacing my shell. Ask my Uncle that replaced Windows 8's shell with Windows 7's with the hack. It's simply not worth it. Linux is Linux in the end. It doesn't matter what Desktop environment you use. KDE is KDE on Ubuntu, Gentoo, whatever distro. I use Linux as my tinkering and lightweight computing OS. Not my rock solid performance gaming/main machine.

If you don't like how Windows 8 works, then did you buy Windows 8?

This has been debated endlessly before and just ends up been a flame fest and this thread is going the same way, this video can't have been posted for any other reason but to re-open the age old debate, about time it was put to bed forever and people moved on from it.

I didn't buy Windows 8. I'm not flaming. I'm simply giving my opinion on Windows 8.

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ike_where_this_thread_is_going-vi.jpg

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The fact is, 1) she's on a multimonitor setup making access to the charms bar slightly more annoying on the main screen in front of her. And the OOBE and main instruction for USING windows 8 is to have a go and see what it does when you stick your mouse in the corners! SO, tell her that and THEN see how long it takes.

there's a couple of pixels on each corner that prevents your mouse from sliding over.

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Hey, man I'm just telling it like it is. There's no need to get snotty.

Wasn't getting snotty; just responding on your comments on how flexibility is a good thing. Except in Windows. You don't like a shell, application, or some other feature on a Linux desktop, replace it! Same argument in Windows? It's total garbage, forget replacing it, bad idea. It comes across as very biased.

I understand I have access to all the Windows software. Replacing critical system files is not stable

Shell replacements usually don't (or at least shouldn't) be replacing system files though, it's literally a quick registry edit to change your shell, the actual software can be located wherever you like. That one shell you're mentioning, if its the one I think you mean, doesn't replace system files, it installs 7's Explorer elsewhere, doesn't overwrite 8's. You can switch on the fly. That aside, it's easy. Two seconds and presto, I can make a console your shell. Or even Notepad. Not that it's terribly useful of course, although there's no Metro start screen anymore, so I guess that's subjective.

I do agree with the current state of third party shells for Windows though... they need a lot of work. (Not that it's Microsoft's fault obviously.) Community for that sort of thing is rather weak on the Windows side, whereas in *Nix various shells are a must unless you you're a console jockey. I did try that Windows 7 shell trick myself a while back.. it's actually pretty decent if you're into that sort of thing, barring a couple minor quirks. Personally, if a user wants the Windows 7 shell that bad, stay with 7. It's supported until 2020, and if XP's any indication, probably longer than that as far as users are concerned... not going anywhere any time soon. Either that or, well, snotty not intended, but the user in question should RTFM or take a few seconds to adjust it to their workflow.

I didn't buy Windows 8. I'm not flaming. I'm simply giving my opinion on Windows 8.

Personally, I somewhat agree with you. I actually do like the new start screen, but it has a few serious deficiencies that I hope they take care of by SP1 before I commit to it full time. My biggest gripe is these stupid videos where they plop down somebody who has zero experience in front of an unfamiliar version of an OS and record it for "the lulz" without even giving them the benefit of at least watching that little tutorial first. Shocker, something's different, people can get stuck. Throw her at a virtual machine running Windows 3.11. Bet she can't figure out how to shut that one down either. Well, safely anyway.

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Oh my gosh people will have to learn something! The world is going to end.

It's funny to me that people rail about adding a few clicks to shut down when you use a lot less everywhere else (once you know the new UI and shortcuts.)

Seems like trolling, whether intentional or not.

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this is the only gripe i have about win8, stupid place for the power option.

My mum, sister AND father, all have called me atleast once to ask "how do i shut my fecking pc down!!!!???"

and i did show all three how to do it! People forget about the charms bar

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It's pretty ridiculous to judge Windows 8 on how many steps it takes to shut down. It's a task most people don't do at all and if they do it, they do it at most once a day, so four steps isn't exactly indicative of crappy software. It takes me one tap or a swipe and a tap to open all of my frequently used programs and they open in a snap. I'd say that makes Windows 8 a success from a UI standpoint.

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I'd go a bit further and call it poor design choices for the different form factors. Hiding the power off setting maybe makes sense on tablets, but applying the same logic to desktop and you end up with videos like this one. And it's just one of many issues it suffers from.

What about other PC form factors make manual shutdown inherently more important than it is on tablets?

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Change incurs.

People take a while to adapt to said change.

Internet calls said change a failure, because people don't adapt right away.

Oh boy. What's the purpose of this thread again?

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Windows 8 has some issues, this isn't one of them. At some point someone told her how to click the start menu and select shutdown. First time she's shutting down on windows 8, just say move mouse to upper left corner, then go down to settings. Wouldn't have had to tell her anything else.

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If I put aside the issue of the shutdown button, what I've noticed on the video is all the customizations, and the big number of icon on the start screen. So it seems that the owner has been enjoying enough win 8, to put all these stuff.

Also it looked less ugly than I usually think on that big start screen, perhaps the customizations helped .

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What about other PC form factors make manual shutdown inherently more important than it is on tablets?

The fact that you're operating the computer with a mouse and keyboard makes it logical that you'd also shut it down the same way (using mouse or keyboard) instead of standing up and or reaching down for the button. Changing that destroys almost 20 years of muscle memory most people have built up since the standard Windows 95 set. It wouldn't be such an issue if the new location of the shutdown button wasn't hidden behind three screens, but, as we can obviously see, it is proving to be a problem. It's just very unintuitive. Even the clowns from GNOME tried hiding the shut down option and had to revert a couple of releases later.

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I thought it would be on start screen, beside username, where you click for user customizations.

Thats were all 3 of my family members who had problems finding it, looked first.

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Microsoft apologists: "Windows 8 is OK. That?s her brain, she?s using it wrong"

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We've been telling people for 2 decades not to do that! Besides, why should I have to bend over and push a button on my computer? On Windows 7, shut down is 2 clicks away. 2 FRICKIN CLICKS AWAY FOR CHRIST SAKE!!!!!!! Not swipe, click settings, click power, click shutdown or push a power button.

its 3 clicks in Windows 7 and 3 clicks in WIndows 8.

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Microsoft apologists: "Windows 8 is OK. That?s her brain, she?s using it wrong"

Change takes time. More at 11.

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its 3 clicks in Windows 7 and 3 clicks in WIndows 8.

It's two in Win 7 depending on how you've got that button configured, click start, click shutdown, go to bed. Three if you have to bring up that other menu to the side without waiting for the mouseover if you got the default to something else. (I forget, is sleep default? Haven't done a fresh install of 7 in quite a while, never mind using a hotkey for it.)

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It does not matter if "Change takes time".

They need to put it back in the Start Screen. That way people who have the habit of going to Start - Shut Down still perform the same steps.

And will people stop saying "Just press the power button on the computer". It is not a 100% guarantee that they have it configured that way. Mine is not.

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As for her not seeing the initial setup that shows where the charm bar is, you should of at least told her that it was there and seen if she could of shut it down after that. When I install and setup other computer I add shortcuts to the modern interface to restart and shutdown, easy for users to find and simple one click and your done.

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Start, Arrow, Shutdown. > Win7

Settings, Power, Shutdown > Win8

or

CTRL+ALT+DELETE, Shutdown > Win7

CTRL+ALT+DELETE, Shutdown > Win8

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It does not matter if "Change takes time".

They need to put it back in the Start Screen. That way people who have the habit of going to Start - Shut Down still perform the same steps.

And in the future people will feel the same way about the new setup...that was their point.

I don't see the point of adding it to the Screen. That would just add redundancy...which most ways they've gone to great lengths to remove in 8.

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The plain truth is that Windows 8 suffers from poor design choices.

For a system that is intended to be 'slept' all the time, the design choice is fine.

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