Jump to content

157 posts in this topic

Posted

Personally I liked Opera developers efforts for Presto engine but they had little user base so cost benefit was less. Webkit is free open source contributed by many many people so it will good for them switch but it will be monopoly. Which I hate...
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Zlip792' timestamp='1360835346' post='595521014']
Personally I liked Opera developers efforts for Presto engine but they had little user base so cost benefit was less. Webkit is free open source contributed by many many people so it will good for them switch but it will be monopoly. Which I hate...
[/quote]

Monopoly is really in regards to one company. If Chromium for example becomes the standard it won't be a monopoly as many companies and people contribute to it.

1st Step: Get everyone on Chromium/Webkit
2nd Step: Get it to be official standard where everyone contributes to and is tightly connected with W3C
3rd Step: Enjoy rapid innovation and progress on the web without waiting a decade for new features to trickle down and deal with different browsers that wanted to integrate and interpret the HTML/CSS/JS standards however they want.

There's a reason why we are still waiting on ECMAScript 6

Look at this mess:

http://kangax.github.com/es5-compat-table/es6/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Boz' timestamp='1360835901' post='595521022']
Monopoly is really in regards to one company. If Chromium for example becomes the standard it won't be a monopoly as many companies and people contribute to it.

1st Step: Get everyone on Chromium/Webkit
2nd Step: Get it to be official standard where everyone contributes to and is tightly connected with W3C
3rd Step: Enjoy rapid innovation and progress on the web without waiting a decade for new features to trickle down and deal with different browsers that wanted to integrate and interpret the HTML/CSS/JS standards however they want.

There's a reason why we are still waiting on ECMAScript 6

Look at this mess:

[url="http://kangax.github.com/es5-compat-table/es6/"]http://kangax.github...mpat-table/es6/[/url]
[/quote]

No actually as some one on previous pages mentioned that sometime user contribution is ignored because other does not want in case of Webkit then this is sad fact. I am personally not a follower of Webkit or Chrome development except I read Chromium changelogs while I do follow Mozilla development quite much. Again Microsoft is quite silent and secretive except their Microsoft Connect for feedback.

Lets hope whatever happen, it will be in favour of developers, users both at a time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

BTW one general question? Whether they will go with Webkit or Webkit2 API, Webkit 2 API is same as Chrome multiprocess architecture (as far as I know) and used in Safari 5.2+ which never released for Windows? Am I right? So which one Opera choice?
I suggest Webkit 2 API..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Boz' timestamp='1360835901' post='595521022']


Monopoly is really in regards to one company. If Chromium for example becomes the standard it won't be a monopoly as many companies and people contribute to it.

1st Step: Get everyone on Chromium/Webkit
2nd Step: Get it to be official standard where everyone contributes to and is tightly connected with W3C
3rd Step: Enjoy rapid innovation and progress on the web without waiting a decade for new features to trickle down and deal with different browsers that wanted to integrate and interpret the HTML/CSS/JS standards however they want.

There's a reason why we are still waiting on ECMAScript 6

Look at this mess:

http://kangax.github.com/es5-compat-table/es6/
[/quote]

I see you still don't understand the difference between a standard and software. It's important to have a standard and it let software be the standard. It stifles innovation, even when OS and breaks thievery purpose of a standard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Zlip792' timestamp='1360845050' post='595521162']
BTW one general question? Whether they will go with Webkit or Webkit2 API, Webkit 2 API is same as Chrome multiprocess architecture (as far as I know) and used in Safari 5.2+ which never released for Windows? Am I right? So which one Opera choice?
I suggest Webkit 2 API..
[/quote]

from the wording in the article, it sounds like opera is going to be based on chromium.
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Boz' timestamp='1360834760' post='595521008'] Well exactly.. that's the whole point.. if we had that on desktop it would 10x better than what we have now. [/quote]


No it wouldn't... and I like how you ignored everything else in my post, par for the course of course when it comes to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='HawkMan' timestamp='1360847207' post='595521202']
No it wouldn't... and I like how you ignored everything else in my post, par for the course of course when it comes to you.
[/quote]

Developing HTML5 stuff for mobile where we really have two major webkit based browsers is 10 times easier than for desktop. I read your whole post, this FACT disproves your opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Boz' timestamp='1360848850' post='595521226']
Developing HTML5 stuff for mobile where we really have two major webkit based browsers is 10 times easier than for desktop. I read your whole post, this FACT disproves your opinion.
[/quote]

The easiest is of course to develop using the STANDARD, not using the prefixes at all until the prefixed function are actually standardized.

the only thing you're accomplishing here is giving away control of the web, AGAIN, and hindering innovation, AGAIN.

The fact you can't code and write the same code 15 times for no good reason is besides the fact. and the reason it's easier to code for mobile isn't because 90% of mobile internet users are on iOS/Webkit/Safar. it's because they'r eon mobile and mobile sites by default are simpler and easier.

omg it's easier to put together a 20 piece puzzle than a 500 pieze one, THE REVELATION!!!


It also doesn't help that the majority of code added to websites for browser specific functions are not there to ad functionality, but to falsely detect the browser(which is the wrong way anyway, you're supposed to detect what the browser supports, not the browser, but as a coder I suppose you know this...), and then most of the code for this again, is simply to push broken code to certain browsers. I mean look at the amount of webpages that suddenly work perfectly even better than in Chrome if you let opera pretend to be chrome.

The great holy google did this themselves right after they bought google docs. their very first update(this was before Chrome when IE had 90% market and FF was heavily paid by Google), the very first google update to the "google docs" before they even changed the name only did one thing. It used deep browser scanning to detect Opera(so changing the user agent wouldn't work) and sent broken code to it. there was NO other changes. just breaking the webapps in Opera, and suggestign they switch to the google supported FF.
4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='ViperAFK' timestamp='1360846698' post='595521196']
from the wording in the article, it sounds like opera is going to be based on chromium.
[/quote]

So Webkit1 with Chrome like multiprocess architecture. Thanks for pointing my thinking at that point as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Zlip792' timestamp='1360845050' post='595521162']
BTW one general question? Whether they will go with Webkit or Webkit2 API, Webkit 2 API is same as Chrome multiprocess architecture (as far as I know) and used in Safari 5.2+ which never released for Windows? Am I right? So which one Opera choice?
I suggest Webkit 2 API..
[/quote]

WebKit2 and Chromium (Chrome) aren't the same. Chromium is based on WebKit "1" and Google developed their own multiprocess & sandbox environment and slapped it on top of it. WebKit2 is built differently, but offer similar functionality.

In my experience, while testing Safari and Chrome, is that WebKit2 seems to manage processes better (memory) but apart from that I couldn't really say... I'm by no means an expert in the area and I couldn't talk about/compare their security to save my soul.

I wish Opera had chosen WebKit2 in any case, but it seems to me quite clear that they're going to fork Chromium. It'll be interesting either way though. Opera have innovated so much already!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='HawkMan' timestamp='1360849374' post='595521240']
it's easier to code for mobile isn't because 90% of mobile internet users are on iOS/Webkit/Safar. it's because they'r eon mobile and mobile sites by default are simpler and easier.

omg it's easier to put together a 20 piece puzzle than a 500 pieze one, THE REVELATION!!!
[/quote]

Absolutely wrong..

Have you written serious web apps for mobile? Well I have.

The reason why it's easier to write is because of Webkit.. we have most of the features unified (with some slight differences that Apple added on iOS Safari but are really not deal breaking - aka you don't have to use them and have mostly to do with scaling and zooming in/out pages). The only real big difference is that Apple uses Nitro JS VM while Google uses V8 so there might be some discrepancy in JS performance but that's not really much of an issue as well because they are both pretty fast.

The reason HTML5 actually started getting used more and more is exactly BECAUSE of mobile. The first and more advanced web apps have been written for mobile first because the HTML5 features have been added rapidly for both Android and iOS. Both Android and iOS browsers have been able to innovate very quickly and bring new features and fix issues that didn't work.

CSS3 stuff has been working on both since pretty much the beginning when no desktop browser really supported it (I built things in 2008 for iOS that used cool 3D effects and crap). The only difference between the two were that Google got a bit later in to have hardware acceleration on CSS3 transitions and stuff but that was because of the OS and not really related with webkit.

Today even, HTML5 is hardly used on the desktop because of the mess it is in, however people have started building full blown apps with HTML5 on mobile and they are now combining with tools that package that code along with hardware APIs so we can access specific device capabilities (aka PhoneGap and others).

You won't see this ubiquity on the desktop web for a while. If we are lucky in 5 years. Which would make it about 10-11 years since HTML5 officially got to W3C/WHATWG.

Hell, even WebGL is now being introduced in Chrome on Android (via [color=#000000][size=3]--enable-webgl flag - experimental) [/size][/color]and most likely in Safari soon as well when Google officially pushes it.
And it's going to have 90%+ support on mobile years before it will have that ubiquity on desktop (if ever).

I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say it's not easier.. it's 10 times easier. It's nicer for development too. Less waste of time and unnecessary code just to make your web app appear and work the same across browser. It's really a joy to develop for unlike for desktop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Boz' timestamp='1360850700' post='595521276']
Today even, HTML5 is hardly used on the desktop because of the mess it is in, however people have started building full blown apps with HTML5 on mobile and they are now combining with tools that package that code along with hardware APIs so we can access specific device capabilities (aka PhoneGap and others).
[/quote]

:huh:

PhoneGap (owned by Adobe), other tools owned by other companies, and you think this is a good thing?

HTML is a markup language, and you can barely find a good agreement on how to just write a document that gets presented with standard markup that has a logical semantic outline, yet some companies want it to flash and dance and work as some magical do-it-all client side language which is a terrible idea. Five years out we're going to have HTML the document language, and HTML/js/CSS the application development language, which is fragmented but works on every device if you don't mind kludging it together with 3rd party tools.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Jub Fequois' timestamp='1360849998' post='595521250']
WebKit2 and Chromium (Chrome) aren't the same. Chromium is based on WebKit "1" and Google developed their own multiprocess & sandbox environment and slapped it on top of it. WebKit2 is built differently, but offer similar functionality.

In my experience, while testing Safari and Chrome, is that WebKit2 seems to manage processes better (memory) but apart from that I couldn't really say... I'm by no means an expert in the area and I couldn't talk about/compare their security to save my soul.

I wish Opera had chosen WebKit2 in any case, but it seems to me quite clear that they're going to fork Chromium. It'll be interesting either way though. Opera have innovated so much already!
[/quote]

Thanks for information but I already know this though. Also same wish that Opera should go with Webkit 2 but as pointed by ViperAFK, they might go with Chrome approach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Zlip792' timestamp='1360849706' post='595521244']
So Webkit1 with Chrome like multiprocess architecture. Thanks for pointing my thinking at that point as well.
[/quote]

Multiprocess can be done with any rendering engine and has nothing to do with the actual rendering engine. It's the actual program and how that is programmed that defines that. hopefully Opera decides to do it as they currently do, multi process, but wrapped inside the opera file so your task manager isn't flooded by 50 opera.exe files. god that's annoying in chrome.

Personally I much prefer a well programmed browser like opera that doesn't crash, as opposed to a browser like chrome where the crashes are separated. to not affect the whole browser.
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Boz' timestamp='1360850700' post='595521276']
I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say it's not easier.. it's 10 times easier. It's nicer for development too. Less waste of time and unnecessary code just to make your web app appear and work the same across browser. It's really a joy to develop for unlike for desktop.
[/quote]

It's also 10 times easier to JUST STICK TO THE FRICKEN STANDARD, and don't use the damn prefixes. less resources, better code, faster site, cleaner code. and far less effort.

Just because you're incapable of coding without adding in 50 fancy and completely unnecessary "cool" effects that are only supported on some browsers, doesn't make it harder, it just means you're unable to to not add in lots of unnecessary CSS code that makes your life harder.

Also you're not supposed to code for browser, you're supposed to use the standard function for checking what is supported in the browser visiting the site an activate CSS effects based on that. easy, and clean on the code and efficient. as opposed to checking for the browser and manually adding code for each browser and each version of the browser.



Also as for VRML2... err I mean, WebGL.... bwahaha. sorry that crap isn't and shouldn't be used, EVER. it makes horribly designed 100% flash sites look like user friendly interface masterpieces. and it's horrible to use for games as well. better to use an actual plugin for that, r an actual app. but hey you're completely against separate apps like flash and think html5 is the greatest best thing ever... err wait a min now...
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='.stan' timestamp='1360750331' post='595518866']
That is bull**** because WebKit is open source.
[/quote]

Just because something is open source, doesn't automatically mean it's gods gift to mankind. Webkit has plenty of flaws.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Boz' timestamp='1360835901' post='595521022']
Monopoly is really in regards to one company. If Chromium for example becomes the standard it won't be a monopoly as many companies and people contribute to it.

1st Step: Get everyone on Chromium/Webkit
2nd Step: Get it to be official standard where everyone contributes to and is tightly connected with W3C
3rd Step: Enjoy rapid innovation and progress on the web without waiting a decade for new features to trickle down and deal with different browsers that wanted to integrate and interpret the HTML/CSS/JS standards however they want.
[/quote]

Funny, I have a deja-vu feeling. It was 20 years ago with UNIX and all the standards like POSIX or CDE, when Sun, IBM, Digital, HP and SGI were all battling while promising a better standardized UNIX future.
I heard the same kind of arguments from developers who were working in the comfort zone of SunOS and did not want anything to do with Irix because it was different
We all know how it ended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='HawkMan' timestamp='1360855273' post='595521440']
Multiprocess can be done with any rendering engine and has nothing to do with the actual rendering engine. It's the actual program and how that is programmed that defines that. hopefully Opera decides to do it as they currently do, multi process, but wrapped inside the opera file so your task manager isn't flooded by 50 opera.exe files. god that's annoying in chrome.

Personally I much prefer a well programmed browser like opera that doesn't crash, as opposed to a browser like chrome where the crashes are separated. to not affect the whole browser.
[/quote]

If it is not at engine level in case of Webkit but I think Gecko is different. Where Mozilla ditched idea of E10S (electrolysis|) project and now they are doing snappy project by moving code to aysnc and from away from main thread.
Lets hope whatever we get makes web developers and users both happy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

This is awful news.

[quote name='Boz' timestamp='1360834760' post='595521008']
Well exactly.. that's the whole point.. if we had that on desktop it would 10x better than what we have now.
[/quote]

Just like 90% of people using IE6, right? Jesus Christ your lack of logic is hurting my brain.
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='HawkMan' timestamp='1360855273' post='595521440']
Personally I much prefer a well programmed browser like opera that doesn't crash, as opposed to a browser like chrome where the crashes are separated. to not affect the whole browser.
[/quote]

Spot on. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Know whats funny? Boz still hasn't answered to Athenar's challenge but keeps repeating the same crap he always does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='-Razorfold' timestamp='1360866228' post='595521776']
Know whats funny? Boz still hasn't answered to Athenar's challenge but keeps repeating the same crap he always does.
[/quote]
He hasn't answered anyone challenges and merely selectively quotes 1/10th of people's posts when he replies or just ignores them altogether.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='Athernar' timestamp='1360813321' post='595520740']So you're saying Webkit is a closed source project now? Or maybe that "It's fine because it's open source" defence doesn't work out so well in practice?[/quote]

He's saying that Google doesn't own Webkit. Google can't just do whatever they want to with it.

[quote name='Syanide' timestamp='1360857800' post='595521526']This is awful news.[/quote]

Why?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1360868607' post='595521834']


He's saying that Google doesn't own Webkit. Google can't just do whatever they want to with it.
[/quote]

They can, and then we have WebKit fragmentation and... Square one

Again, software is not a standard. Standard is not software. Software follows standards. Standards are written for software.
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.