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#46 vcfan

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 14:19

I see sony doing the exact same they did with the PS3 and the CELL. Yes the CELL on paper looked pretty amazing,but in the real world,it didn't get there. They are doing the same thing with the ram. Sure GDDR5 has more bandwidth than DDR3, but it also has more latency.

The GPU runs a parallel pipeline,so if it stalls because of latency,another part of the GPU can be doing something else. There is a performance penalty,but its not too bad,and the bandwidth will make up for it and more.

What is bad is the CPU penalty. The CPU is linear. It executes instructions in order. Because of the latency,the CPU will basically stall,making the CPU less efficient.

The CPU is important because of the AI and physics. If the graphics has to keep waiting for the calculations and its taking a long time, where is the supposed advantage now?


#47 OP Audioboxer

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 14:31

it was never designed to be a transportable carrier. even so, it was a LOT easier to remove and carry over to a friend than the PS3 "removable" HDD.

so yes it was user friendly. ANYONE could buy a 360 without a HDD or with a smaller HDD and upgrade when they needed a HDD or a bigger one was available.

and again. the 360 never had a problem with the ventilation system, it had a problem with how the CPU was soldered to the motherboard. causing repeated heat and cold cycles, to break the soldering. This problem slipped through QnA because it required both time and many many many repeated on off cycles with cool off inbetween the appear.

of course Sony just redesigned the PS4 with twice the memory, meaning they need a new motherboard and console design. leaving them open to a similar undetected long term usage fault. since there's no chance they now have enough time to finish a full long term QnA test on the new hardware before it has to go into production.


I just do not know how people can say things like this with certainty.

It's almost as if you want to add your long term 'RROD' prediction simply to hit Sony with a negative slant. You're talking about stuff you really have absolutely no idea about.

#48 vetDirtyLarry

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 14:41

Man, count me out if what was only rumor is now absolutely considered fact. They are rushing because they used 8GB at the last minute? How do people know this exactly? Because dev kits historically have twice the ram? I mean call me crazy, but could it just be they decided it made a whole lot of sense that the dev kit would actually have the same RAM the system would.

And not showing the design means nothing more then they also wanted to have something major to show at e3. Are people really that desperate to make Sony look bad that they are now going to compare them to the same mistakes Microsoft made with rushing the 360 out and totally dismissing a little thing called marketing? Anyone who plays poker knows you do not show all your cards right away, and hate to break it to you all, this business is as much of a poker game as it is everything else. Sony no doubt is holding back on showing the design as they want to also have a great showing at e3.

I am actually close to being done with this community after last night. The amount of XBros sickens me to no end. God forbid your precious piece of plastic is not the best, which yes, all signs are pointing in that direction.

What really, really bothers me about all of you XBros is you fail to forget Sony has been doing this for a long, long time. This is not their first time at the Rodeo. What is amazing is they are not only still around after releasing what many called a disaster of a system because of the Cell, but they appear to be in a place that they will at least have equal specs to the next XBox, and it will be just as easy to develop for. They learned their lesson from The Cell. And this is what has so many people talking ****, and trying to make them sound as bad as they can whenever they can, as they are, for whatever dumb reasons, scared of the fact that even with what so many people called a nightmare of a system with The Cell in the PS3, Sony hung around strong this generation. And now they have a developer friendly console. And a console that appears to be as powerful as the next XBox will be. Why are you all so butthurt about this fact? Because your precious XBox brand may actually not be as great as you all swear that it is? Because the company who so many of you this generation said was destined to fail did not fail? Is your own life really that shallow and empty you have to choose sides on something like a console? Seriously?

#49 HawkMan

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 14:51

or it could be because all the leaked specs had ner EXACTLY the correct specs. Except the RAM, which was ALSO the ONE spec they SPECIFICALLY made a point to mention on their announcement.

It's pretty gullible to think this wasn't a last minute change after they saw MS did 8GB.

Also considering how close we are to production and the extremely long turnaround on electronics production, if this wasn't a last minute change, then they should have had a final PS4 design to show off.

and it will be just as easy to develop for.

Unknown, This is not a statement that can be made today. how hard somethign is to develop for goes FAR beyond what architecture the system uses. the API and SDK is far more improtant. And THAT, not the architexture is where Sony has historically failed. sure the Cell didn't help the issue, but a good API and SDK on top of the CELL woudl have alleviated a lot of those problems.

and Sony did this late in the PS3's life, they added a lot of automated stuff in the SDK that automatically took advantage of the Cell architecture for the developer, like the SDK should, and made development a lot easier.

#50 OP Audioboxer

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 14:53

or it could be because all the leaked specs had ner EXACTLY the correct specs. Except the RAM, which was ALSO the ONE spec they SPECIFICALLY made a point to mention on their announcement.

It's pretty gullible to think this wasn't a last minute change after they saw MS did 8GB.

Also considering how close we are to production and the extremely long turnaround on electronics production, if this wasn't a last minute change, then they should have had a final PS4 design to show off.


Well when are these leaked specs from? We do not know. The leaked pictures of the PS4 controller were out of date. In order to be certain in this instance you have to fill in gaps with predictions and speculation, both of those cannot be passed as fact, ever.

And how can we see MS are doing 8GB? MS haven't announced the next Xbox, do you really think Sony would base the PS4 specs on a VGleaks article? .... See my point? Leaks/rumours and speculation are not what you run your business on. Until MS announce the next Xbox we cannot say the leaked specs are fact, the leaked PS4 specs turned out not to be, or at least they were not based upon up to date information.

#51 HawkMan

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 14:56

Also can I not criticize something without you calling me a fanboy ? is YOUR life that shallow. sorry but you seem to be the one who gets your panties in a bunch over something actually criticizing the choices they have made.

are we all supposed to just prostrate ourselves and say "all hail Sony, you did the best decision that could have been made, there is no way you could have made the PS4 any better". Seriously, this is a discussion forum, we're supposed to voice our opinions and praise what they do right and criticize what they do wrong or could have done better.

Well when are these leaked specs from? We do not know. The leaked pictures of the PS4 controller were out of date. In order to be certain in this instance you have to fill in gaps with predictions and speculation, both of those cannot be passed as fact, ever.

And how can we see MS are doing 8GB? MS haven't announced the next Xbox, do you really think Sony would base the PS4 specs on a VGleaks article? .... See my point? Leaks/rumours and speculation are not what you run your business on. Until MS announce the next Xbox we cannot say the leaked specs are fact, the leaked PS4 specs turned out not to be.


I'm fairly certain Sony has better sources for what MS does than a VGLeaks article, sources they can check after the rumors pop out.

factories need to be outfitted, and factory people talks easily when sony slip them a few dollars.

#52 OP Audioboxer

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 14:57

I'm fairly certain Sony has better sources for what MS does than a VGLeaks article, sources they can check after the rumors pop out.

factories need to be outfitted, and factory people talks easily when sony slip them a few dollars.


So now we have bribes and extortion? :p

#53 dead.cell

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 15:01

"You guys are gullible, you should listen to me because I'm an expert on the matter!"

That's basically all I'm hearing here. No one would be calling you out if you didn't present your argument as if it were a fact, HawkMan. When you talk like you know for a fact that the PS4 was just redesigned, it really takes away from your credibility that you know what you're talking about.

People like TheLegendOfMart made the same speculation; the difference being how he presented himself...

Case and point:

of course Sony just redesigned the PS4 with twice the memory, meaning they need a new motherboard and console design.

I am also a little worried about the GDDR5, the leaked specs said 4Gb and I think the reason they didn't show off the console today was that the 8Gb change was in response to Durango 8Gb which means having to redesign the whole console to fit the memory into it.



#54 psyn

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 15:05

Is your own life really that shallow and empty you have to choose sides on something like a console? Seriously?


Holy smokes. You took the words outta my mouth.

On another note though, I would have really wished that Sony just gave us a full on introduction of the console, full features of dual shock 4 etc etc.

I don't know about you guys, but i'm getting a bit fatigued with 'mystery' themed press launches and then not having all the answers after it's over.

Would have really wanted to get some pricing information, see the actual console and how dual shock really exemplifies itself as a next gen type controller and how the social media features really all tie in.

I'm excited about Ps4, but a tad annoyed that not everything was revealed.

#55 HawkMan

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 15:10

So now we have bribes and extortion? :p

non of the above, but industrial espionage on factories is pretty standard fare and something "everyone" does down there.

#56 threetonesun

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 15:16

The Xbox whatever and the PS4 will be essentially the same, they'll be able to do 1080p at 30fps. The specifications are pretty pointless. The consoles are differentiated by their ability to lure exclusives, which Microsoft has an upper hand in by charging for their online service, giving them a pile of cash to throw at every developer they can find.

#57 OP Audioboxer

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 15:17

The Xbox whatever and the PS4 will be essentially the same, they'll be able to do 1080p at 30fps. The specifications are pretty pointless. The consoles are differentiated by their ability to lure exclusives, which Microsoft has an upper hand in by charging for their online service, giving them a pile of cash to throw at every developer they can find.


Killzone for the PS4 is confirmed at 1080p 30FPS, so you've got that right :p I'm sure some games will do 1080/60, especially as the generation goes on and developers squeeze more out of the hardware.

As a final parting thought, people really need to look at this event as an unusually early peak into what Sony are currently doing with the PS4, not a release announcement. As I posted on another forum

As a gamer I love finding out what I can when I can. It's sad we can't have a glimpse into the PS4 future as early as possible.

It's kind of like a developer showing a game early and then getting roasted that there is bugs/screen tear/weak looking graphics. It's to be expected this early on things are still in the works. What are Sony to do for the next 8 months, sit and twiddle their thumbs on a completed box? If the PS4 were complete right now it would be launching in a few months, it's not complete, the holiday 2013 date shows this.

This fast food type industry is a pain. A little bit of patience never hurt anyone.


They told us their philosophy is to put developers first, have given developers the memory allowance they were asking for and are expanding free to play solutions as well as discussing the importance of indie games. The conference was a small, but important 'love letter' to gamers/developers on a few key points that historically the PS brand has had issues, especially by going x86. A launch of a console is a long haul, there is usually 5-7 years between hardware, not 6 months like mobile phone refreshes. You can't just out of nowhere hold a conference and release a price point/date for a console like you can a new phone.

#58 Jester124

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 15:30

I see sony doing the exact same they did with the PS3 and the CELL. Yes the CELL on paper looked pretty amazing,but in the real world,it didn't get there. They are doing the same thing with the ram. Sure GDDR5 has more bandwidth than DDR3, but it also has more latency.

The GPU runs a parallel pipeline,so if it stalls because of latency,another part of the GPU can be doing something else. There is a performance penalty,but its not too bad,and the bandwidth will make up for it and more.

What is bad is the CPU penalty. The CPU is linear. It executes instructions in order. Because of the latency,the CPU will basically stall,making the CPU less efficient.

The CPU is important because of the AI and physics. If the graphics has to keep waiting for the calculations and its taking a long time, where is the supposed advantage now?


I was thinking the same thing... GDDR is made for GPUs not CPUs. I thought it was a mistake at first... I guess we will see on how it performs.

#59 shakey

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 15:31

All I know is, I'm getting a ****ing PS4 when it comes out.
Seems that both systems, according to leaks and whatnot, will be about the same power. So this next gen console "war" will be determined by what else the console has to offer. What apps it provides, price of service, and what little extras can be done.
If Sony sticks to their free online model as they have with the PS3, and the next Xbox still charges for live, we will see the PS4 lead in sales and usage. I just don't see MS having any grounds to charge for Live service with this next gen hardware.

The Xbox whatever and the PS4 will be essentially the same, they'll be able to do 1080p at 30fps. The specifications are pretty pointless. The consoles are differentiated by their ability to lure exclusives, which Microsoft has an upper hand in by charging for their online service, giving them a pile of cash to throw at every developer they can find.


They should be able to do 1080p with 60fps with the current specs we see with no problems.

#60 BajiRav

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 15:34

At the end of the day I think it's worth mentioning, but it's easily justifiable why 8 months before release they're either

a) Not showing all their cards
b) The design still isn't final

People have mentioned that the 8GB of GDDR5 is last minute, but what you have to remember is it's a privilege to live in today's internet world where there aren't really any surprises any more and the gaming world is leak tastic. However, not everything leaked can be taken as fact, especially when it's not picture/video based evidence.

It's fun to discuss leaks, but ultimately they bias actual unveils. We're either sitting with a checklist against prior leaks ticking off what Sony say, or moaning afterwars that a leak isn't true... or doesn't appear to be at the moment. Unless Sony say they were targeting 4GB and changed to 8GB recently, we can't simply say VGleaks proves they're redesigning the PS4 again. VGleaks in now way explained how integrated the gaikai streaming was with all the OS share features - Recording video in the background is memory intensive. At one point 4GB may of been the target, who knows, but to say its undoubtedly true in the past month there has been a bump to 8GB isn't a given, it could of happened, it could've been 8GB for a while. 4GB of GDDR5 was still going to arguably be better than the rumoured 8GB of slower memory in the next Xbox...

Leaks really do spoil us, I truly think if we didn't have rumoured PS4 specs and they announced 8GB of GDDR5 and near 2 TFLOPs those unhappy with the conference would seem more impressed - As we heard about GDDR5 and the teraflop count prior to the event, it undoubtedly takes the wind away a little when we can't say we were surprised.

The memory jump between the PS3 to PS4 is the largest in % scale from any PS generation. 16x I think it is, the next largest I believe was PS1 to PS2 at 14x. I know it's the largest after seeing the stats last night, but my actual multipliers may be slightly wrong this morning.

I would say both a&b are factor into why they are not showing. About the VGLeaks specs thing, I find it hard to believe that they will change this late in the game (production should be starting in late May/June, right?) but it is still possible because almost of the other info was correct. I guess increasing RAM is a low risk change and I don't believe they need to redesign anything, they can probably use higher capacity chips on the same design? (if cost is not prohibitive).

Edit: and yeah, :ninja:
tumblr_m2p6xpTQcb1qbolbn.jpg


Man, count me out if what was only rumor is now absolutely considered fact. They are rushing because they used 8GB at the last minute? How do people know this exactly? Because dev kits historically have twice the ram? I mean call me crazy, but could it just be they decided it made a whole lot of sense that the dev kit would actually have the same RAM the system would.

And not showing the design means nothing more then they also wanted to have something major to show at e3. Are people really that desperate to make Sony look bad that they are now going to compare them to the same mistakes Microsoft made with rushing the 360 out and totally dismissing a little thing called marketing? Anyone who plays poker knows you do not show all your cards right away, and hate to break it to you all, this business is as much of a poker game as it is everything else. Sony no doubt is holding back on showing the design as they want to also have a great showing at e3.

I am actually close to being done with this community after last night. The amount of XBros sickens me to no end. God forbid your precious piece of plastic is not the best, which yes, all signs are pointing in that direction.

What really, really bothers me about all of you XBros is you fail to forget Sony has been doing this for a long, long time. This is not their first time at the Rodeo. What is amazing is they are not only still around after releasing what many called a disaster of a system because of the Cell, but they appear to be in a place that they will at least have equal specs to the next XBox, and it will be just as easy to develop for. They learned their lesson from The Cell. And this is what has so many people talking ****, and trying to make them sound as bad as they can whenever they can, as they are, for whatever dumb reasons, scared of the fact that even with what so many people called a nightmare of a system with The Cell in the PS3, Sony hung around strong this generation. And now they have a developer friendly console. And a console that appears to be as powerful as the next XBox will be. Why are you all so butthurt about this fact? Because your precious XBox brand may actually not be as great as you all swear that it is? Because the company who so many of you this generation said was destined to fail did not fail? Is your own life really that shallow and empty you have to choose sides on something like a console? Seriously?

Xbros? seriously? :p The **** has been flying both ways if you look closely. There is no point in singling out one over the other.