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ubuntu Mir: Ubuntu's New Display Server

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i like that linux gives the user the choice and what the bashers and haters calling fragmentation i call variety and change. the fact that so many similar yet different solutions can coexist together means just that none of it has yet proven to be the very best. of coruse some would love to have a dictatorship company like microsoft forcing the users to use this and that, but when it comes to GUI for example, linux is really open. i am soooo happy that i still can use lets say gnome 2 and dont HAVE TO accept unity or gnome 3 and run arround the world lying myself how good it is (hint: metro anyone?)

so you dont like x11 or mir in that example: then use another one! no one is forcing you. its freedom and democracy.

and if you dont like anything at all: build your own linux. now try that with ballmers-loser-os :rofl:

on a sidenote:im happy that our proven linux hater hawkman is already in full bashing mode against linux in general. this will be a crucial test if the moderatores react the same way - and hopefully they do - as in the windows thread.

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Except I don't hate linux, and I use it, I just don't have a blind love affair with it. and unlike others, I don't troll with "Ballmers loser OS". So you're proven is proven patently false.

and choice is all well and good, but there's a point when to much choice is bad, or rather it's not the choice itself. it's when you developer can't work together and create 2-3 good products and instead create 10+ sub par products. instead of working together.

That is the point, had linux worked together, and actually made a common standard which they still haven't been able to do, and created a couple of well working base systems. THEN linux might have been a valid alternative for users, companies and enterprise. as it is. Linux will NEVER be a desktop OS replacement, they are stuck at the ~1%

Also how long can you actually use Gnome2, since last I checked it's not really compatible with the new desktop compositors. and you will need Mate or some of the other forks.

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of coruse some would love to have a dictatorship company like microsoft forcing the users to use this and that, but when it comes to GUI for example, linux is really open. i am soooo happy that i still can use lets say gnome 2 and dont HAVE TO accept unity or gnome 3 and run arround the world lying myself how good it is (hint: metro anyone?)

Just to point out, you've had the ability to switch to a different shell in Windows since forever, you don't have to use Explorer, there are alternatives out there.. granted most aren't very good, but that's not Microsoft's fault as they didn't write them. Hardly a dictatorship... just an out-of-the-box default. Got one Win8 system running with the Windows 7 shell, and another running KDE. Just saying.

On topic, just out of curiosity (lost interest in Unity a while ago, more of a KDE fan), with their switch to QT, are they still going to be using Nautilus, etc? The GTK based stuff that is. Personally not a big fan of mix-and-matching GTK and QT, just a hassle to get them all looking consistent, extra resource usage, etc. Wondering how that's going to play out.

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Its bad news for linux but I don't really like x11 either......

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I don't get the "Freedom and choice" argument about having a separate display server just for the hell of it, you guys want to use IPX instead of TCP for "freedom"?

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Gnome 2 is dead and gone. There's mate but meh, after using gnome 3 in fallback mode I find gnome 2 pretty much annoying, though I find gnome annoying now for dumping fallback mode. And cinnamon would be brilliant if it didn't use 100% GPU doing buggar all, my macbook's fan runs at full speed giving a lot of heat and it lags like hell just MOVING a window, something is not right with it.

Switching from TS to Citrix :s strange choice that. I've never liked citrix, other than you can use it on a laggy-as-hell 33Kbps modem and it'll work, very slowly, but it does work, TS on the other hand disconnects you.

RE: Windows shells, there are LOADS! I remember playing around with a very nifty one years ago with a bunch of extensions... God knows what it was called, if I find the old drive I could take a look, there was a hack of it and a 64-bit version released and it had extensions etc. so yes, definately not limited to explorer.

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Litestep, my personal thoguh short lived favorie IceSphere/IceShell, Blackbox, and variant of blackbox and litestep in abundance. and you also have a few more flashy ones that are supposedly easier to setup and modify for the regular user but cost money.

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Just to point out, you've had the ability to switch to a different shell in Windows since forever, you don't have to use Explorer, there are alternatives out there.. granted most aren't very good, but that's not Microsoft's fault as they didn't write them. Hardly a dictatorship... just an out-of-the-box default. Got one Win8 system running with the Windows 7 shell, and another running KDE. Just saying.

I had no idea there was a port of KDE for Windows! I looked it up and it looks pretty awesome. I'm definitely going to install this in one of my Windows VMs. I really like the fact that its officially supported by the KDE project. Thanks for the tip!

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I had no idea there was a port of KDE for Windows! I looked it up and it looks pretty awesome. I'm definitely going to install this in one of my Windows VMs. I really like the fact that its officially supported by the KDE project. Thanks for the tip!

It's not feature complete by any stretch of the imagination, you'll wind up with more of a "Windows/KDE Hybrid" setup (uses various Windows bits instead of Linux for obvious reasons, etc), but it's still an interesting option. Personally it's not for me for day-to-day usage, but it's fun to work with on a spare setup, especially as I prefer KDE anyway when I work with a Linux desktop.. the other options just don't do it for me.

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Ubuntu wants Ubuntu OS and they want to monetize. I don't think Linux or the open source community is their first priority.

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Just to point out, you've had the ability to switch to a different shell in Windows since forever, you don't have to use Explorer, there are alternatives out there.. granted most aren't very good, but that's not Microsoft's fault as they didn't write them. Hardly a dictatorship... just an out-of-the-box default. Got one Win8 system running with the Windows 7 shell, and another running KDE. Just saying.

On topic, just out of curiosity (lost interest in Unity a while ago, more of a KDE fan), with their switch to QT, are they still going to be using Nautilus, etc? The GTK based stuff that is. Personally not a big fan of mix-and-matching GTK and QT, just a hassle to get them all looking consistent, extra resource usage, etc. Wondering how that's going to play out.

If I had to guess they'd probably keep the gnome applications stack at first, and just get unity rewritten in QT/QML first, and then after they work on new default apps (I hope so anyway)

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If I had to guess they'd probably keep the gnome applications stack at first, and just get unity rewritten in QT/QML first, and then after they work on new default apps (I hope so anyway)

I've been wanting them to ditch all the gnome stuff for a very long time. The Ubuntu developers want to have complete control over their OS. This is blatantly obvious because they have their own desktop environment, and now their new display server. This is somewhat a good thing, IMO because the app is deeply baked in to the OS, and they aren't at the mercy of the developer's decisions. Besides, the default apps just don't make the cut anymore with the bugs, lag, horrible UI's and lack of build in features.

Other things I would like them to fix is:

1. That black bar at the top. When you open dash, it takes the color of the quick launch bar, but close it and it's black again. I think they should make it the color of the launcher all the time. It would also be really cool if the select square and the progress bars would blend in.

2. Give us an easy way to turn off global menus and put them back where they belong.

3. A new icon theme. The current one is starting to show its age and consistency is all over the place.

4. A new sound theme. The current one is annoying. It's the first thing I hack off on a new system.

I'm sure all the general UI inconsistencies and graphical glitches will be fixed by 14.04 when Mir is integrated. :)

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I've been wanting them to ditch all the gnome stuff for a very long time. The Ubuntu developers want to have complete control over their OS. This is blatantly obvious because they have their own desktop environment, and now their new display server. This is somewhat a good thing, IMO because the app is deeply baked in to the OS, and they aren't at the mercy of the developer's decisions. Besides, the default apps just don't make the cut anymore with the bugs, lag, horrible UI's and lack of build in features.

Other things I would like them to fix is:

1. That black bar at the top. When you open dash, it takes the color of the quick launch bar, but close it and it's black again. I think they should make it the color of the launcher all the time. It would also be really cool if the select square and the progress bars would blend in.

2. Give us an easy way to turn off global menus and put them back where they belong.

3. A new icon theme. The current one is starting to show its age and consistency is all over the place.

4. A new sound theme. The current one is annoying. It's the first thing I hack off on a new system.

I'm sure all the general UI inconsistencies and graphical glitches will be fixed by 14.04 when Mir is integrated. :)

I agree, the gnome stack has become increasingly disappointing, many of the apps I use these days are qt apps. I'd be using KDE if I didn't hate plasma so much (and I have issues with kwin tearing on intel graphics).

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I've been wanting them to ditch all the gnome stuff for a very long time. The Ubuntu developers want to have complete control over their OS. This is blatantly obvious because they have their own desktop environment, and now their new display server. This is somewhat a good thing, IMO because the app is deeply baked in to the OS, and they aren't at the mercy of the developer's decisions. Besides, the default apps just don't make the cut anymore with the bugs, lag, horrible UI's and lack of build in features.

I can get behind this. My dislike of Unity isn't Unity itself, it's just the little things. Reminds me a lot of Win8.. some great ideas, but fumbled on some of the execution and makes me want to bang my head into the keyboard repeatedly. I actually like the overall Unity concept, just needs a bit of work yet.. parts of it are actually very nice. Especially liking if they lose the baggage.. get rid of Compiz (pleeeeeease), stop depending on Gnome, for the love of everything good do something with the absurdly slow search speed, etc etc. I'm not terribly thrilled with where Gnome's going, and the "variants" are neat but still bandaids (Cinnamon, etc.) Going with QT is (for me anyway) icing on the cake as I prefer it to most GTK apps... it's not the gaming that's keeping me on a Windows desktop, it's the desktops themselves. Here's hoping.

4. A new sound theme. The current one is annoying. It's the first thing I hack off on a new system.

+1000. Hated it since 7.04 lol...

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For some reason I'm not that surprised to see Ubuntu ignore other open source projects and recreate something other people are already working on.

Wayland uses plain OpenGL via established APIs, there's nothing extra drivers have to support, the main problem is getting apps to use it (Which isn't that hard since they've been transitioning to a client drawn model for ages.)

If there's nothing extra to be supported in drivers...then why is there such a big push to get driver devs to support it?

Also from I read here...it seems to me that Mir and Wayland are basically the same...so I still don't understand why folks are bashing it.

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I agree, the gnome stack has become increasingly disappointing, many of the apps I use these days are qt apps. I'd be using KDE if I didn't hate plasma so much (and I have issues with kwin tearing on intel graphics).

+1 I've really been enjoying KDE 4.10. I have my old NVIDIA 250 GTS in my secondary machine and also have the occasional graphical glitch/weirdness. It's good to know I'm not the only one and it's not me or my system. Kwin/Compiz is cool and all, but I really wish we would just drop it already and move on to something more finer tuned. Just curious--do you have vsync turned on in kwin settings?

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I can get behind this. My dislike of Unity isn't Unity itself, it's just the little things. Reminds me a lot of Win8.. some great ideas, but fumbled on some of the execution and makes me want to bang my head into the keyboard repeatedly. I actually like the overall Unity concept, just needs a bit of work yet.. parts of it are actually very nice. Especially liking if they lose the baggage.. get rid of Compiz (pleeeeeease), stop depending on Gnome, for the love of everything good do something with the absurdly slow search speed, etc etc. I'm not terribly thrilled with where Gnome's going, and the "variants" are neat but still bandaids (Cinnamon, etc.) Going with QT is (for me anyway) icing on the cake as I prefer it to most GTK apps... it's not the gaming that's keeping me on a Windows desktop, it's the desktops themselves. Here's hoping.

Agreed. Unity has some great killer concepts, however execution was sub par. And yes: Compiz/kwin needs to go. :D

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+1 I've really been enjoying KDE 4.10. I have my old NVIDIA 250 GTS in my secondary machine and also have the occasional graphical glitch/weirdness. It's good to know I'm not the only one and it's not me or my system. Kwin/Compiz is cool and all, but I really wish we would just drop it already and move on to something more finer tuned. Just curious--do you have vsync turned on in kwin settings?

yes I do, its a known bug with kwin it tears no matter what at the top inch or so of the screen (very annoying when watching videos) :( Have to wait till 4.11 for the fix, only workaround is using the tearfree option in the intel driver, but that has terrible performance (because it enables an in-driver compositor so you end up with a lot of extra copies/extra work running two compositors)

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yes I do, its a known bug with kwin it tears no matter what at the top inch or so of the screen (very annoying when watching videos) :( Have to wait till 4.11 for the fix, only workaround is using the tearfree option in the intel driver, but that has terrible performance (because it enables an in-driver compositor so you end up with a lot of extra copies/extra work running two compositors)

Ugh...well that sucks. Hope they fix it for you soon, then :)

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Ubuntu wants Ubuntu OS and they want to monetize. I don't think Linux or the open source community is their first priority.

And how is that different from any distribution with a paid option, such as the original two most-well-known distributions in the US - RedHat and Mandrake (now Mageia, but Mandriva before that)?

As soon as money comes into it, it's like it becomes a squabble-fest (at least, among non-RH distributions; RHI itself has their head on straight, despite a semi-fork between RHEL and Fedora) between purists and those that want at least SOME compensation for their hard work.

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Gnome 2 is dead and gone.

the fuduntu community seems to think otherwise.

RE: Windows shells, there are LOADS! I remember playing around with a very nifty one years ago with a bunch of extensions... God knows what it was called, if I find the old drive I could take a look, there was a hack of it and a 64-bit version released and it had extensions etc. so yes, definately not limited to explorer.

the problem with windows shells is, that they are like windows: fundamentally BAD.

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the fuduntu community seems to think otherwise.

Well at the end of the day, no-one is developing gnome2 anymore, it's like using windows 2000, if it works, it works, if it doesn't, it isn't getting patched up.

There's MATE but progress on that is very slow.

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If there's nothing extra to be supported in drivers...then why is there such a big push to get driver devs to support it?

Also from I read here...it seems to me that Mir and Wayland are basically the same...so I still don't understand why folks are bashing it.

Because even though OpenGL via EGL is "stable", there are drivers that have issues running with it (I think the AMD drivers are better than the Nvidia drivers at it, etc.). And I think Wayland (at least) wants to run via OpenGL ES (Makes it a better fit for mobile, etc.) and only recently have desktop drivers started supporting that well (Browsers also want to use OpenGL ES because WebGL is basically a 1:1 mapping to it, but they currently back it with the full blown OpenGL stack)

So while there is stuff to be supported that isn't, it's stuff that should have been exposed if the drivers were any good, etc.

And it's annoying because Ubuntu decided that instead of helping Wayland, they're just going to do it themselves. Considering they were backing Wayland for a while it seems like they got tired of waiting and decided to just do it themselves (There's a reason the Wayland project is moving slowly, there's a lot of issues to work out, Canonical might get it done faster at the expense of stability, support, etc.)

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I'm just worried that Ubuntu is taking on more than they can deliver. They have a lot on their plates right now.

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