157 posts in this topic

Posted

[quote name='MightyJordan' timestamp='1363782257' post='595587854']
Here's a tip: Don't be a douche when replying to someone who's ignorant on the issue; you'll be taken more seriously then.
[/quote]

[img]http://static2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/yeah+he+buys+the+plastic+bags+over+dish+soap+_247af6523711c1c6c62fa5fdc369c1b2.jpg[/img]
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The only thing that really is a bit off to me is Kinect must be plugged in. I am not sure where I would put it if it needs to be above or below the TV like the Wii sensor bar does since I already have a Wii sensor bar installed. My wife hates **** just floating around on our entertainment center, so that could be a slight issue. Other then that, the rest of the features do not bother me at all.

A few pages back HawkMan said something I actually finally have come to agree with, and that is one does not need to own both consoles. I have always known it, but I have owned them both because I could. However I may not pick up both consoles this upcoming generation. I will be 40 in less then 2 years now, and I just do not have time to play games like I once did. I can afford both consoles no issues, but I honestly may for once be smart about things and not get them both. So if that somehow does become a reality, it is a slim chance but if I only did get one console, if these rumors are true, I would get the PS4 as it suits my gaming needs better.

[quote name='Blackhearted' timestamp='1363784777' post='595587924']
Please take off your microsoft fan goggles.
[/quote]
You clearly have never seen this member post before if you think this is even remotely a possibility.
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Posted

[quote name='HawkMan' timestamp='1363764641' post='595587582']
The have to install is because of bluray and the slow read speed. And it doesn't say you have to do a full install like the 360 "installs", just that you have to do an install, which is likely a mini install.

And it'd be surprised if it wasn't 1TB. And since it's most likely a mini install, of course you need the disk, if you didn't you could just install and give it away. Unless every disk was signed and it could ony be played on your account.
[/quote]

"[font="Verdana"][color="#000000"]games will not use content from optical disc[/color][/font]" sounds like requires a full install to me, if games can not use content from optical discs

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Posted

[quote name='DirtyLarry' timestamp='1363785581' post='595587932']
The only thing that really is a bit off to me is Kinect must be plugged in. I am not sure where I would put it if it needs to be above or below the TV like the Wii sensor bar does since I already have a Wii sensor bar installed.[b] My wife hates **** just floating around on our entertainment center[/b], so that could be a slight issue. Other then that, the rest of the features do not bother me at all.

A few pages back HawkMan said something I actually finally have come to agree with, and that is one does not need to own both consoles. I have always known it, but I have owned them both because I could. However I may not pick up both consoles this upcoming generation. I will be 40 in less then 2 years now, and I just do not have time to play games like I once did. I can afford both consoles no issues, but I honestly may for once be smart about things and not get them both. So if that somehow does become a reality, it is a slim chance but if I only did get one console, if these rumors are true, I would get the PS4 as it suits my gaming needs better.


You clearly have never seen this member post before if you think this is even remotely a possibility.
[/quote]

She's much like me then, an OCD minimalist :laugh:

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Posted

[quote name='TheLegendOfMart' timestamp='1363784376' post='595587914']
Weak specs, media focused, anti used games, always on, always connected, always watching, mandatory game installs, how is that progressive. Microsoft is giving developers/consumers what Microsoft thinks they want rather than what the devs/consumers actually want.

[/quote]

Rumored specs close enough to the PS4 that it doesn't matter which one you pick. especially since specs don't mean everything as far as performance or graphics goes. Media focused, like the PS4, only MS is better at it and has better media services with their xbox movies and music services. Xbox movies is still the highest bitrate movie streamer. always conected, umm like the PS4 .... always watching ? err what ? stop smoking the weed. mandatory game installs. which is irrelevant, has to be done on all high quality PS3 games as well, and I'm sure you'll find the PS4 will do the same thing, or it'll have severely low quality textures and/or texture popping.

it's progressive because:

Developers KNOW everyone has a Kinect available, and a Kinect2.0 at that that can see a lot more and in much higher detail, and is the only usable gesture control control in any case. you can control menus and movies with your voice and hand gestures. and for full body and exercise "games" full body tracking makes a 100 times more sense than wands and ninchucks. that allows developers to make games that make good use of the next gen kinect much more than today when it was all or nothing, with a few notable exceptions like ghost recon.

Always on, always online is definitely progress. granted the 360 patched games so fast it didn't matter anyway, but now I can get on my game, and not only is my console already patched up, all my metro apps are patched up, my games are patched, DLC for my games are downloaded so I just need to pay for them where that is needed. It can download new arcade games for me as it sees fit (remember the xbox had download of every new arcade game from the start as a setting).

As for the used games thing, which is just a rumor and has nothing to do with the always online rumor(which doesn't mean it has to be online). Imagine this. All games are basically digital copies, you just buy a license code to apply the download to your account(s), this code is embedded on the disks, and the disks are merely a physical copy of the download. This means I can play the games on any console I'm on(like steam), I can play the game without the disk as the disk, is just storage for the game data. Basically giving you all the benefits of a digital download system like steam, without the drawbacks of having to download several gigabytes on slow, unreliable and capped lines. that's what I call an advantage, [b]IF[/b] that's what they've chosen to do, most likely, I think this is on option the publishers can chose but not the only one.

As for game installs, well allowing you to install games while you play, seems like progress to be.

dunno, maybe your definition of progress just happens to be a bit biased ?

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Posted

[quote name='HawkMan' timestamp='1363787907' post='595588016']mandatory game installs. which is irrelevant, [b]has to be done on all high quality PS3 games as well[/b], and I'm sure you'll find the PS4 will do the same thing, or it'll have severely low quality textures and/or texture popping.
[/quote]

No it doesn't.

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Posted

[quote name='Audioboxer' timestamp='1363786965' post='595587982']
She's much like me then, an OCD minimalist :laugh:
[/quote]

Wii bar under tv, Kinect on top of tv. problem solved :)

[quote name='Audioboxer' timestamp='1363788052' post='595588022']
No it doesn't.
[/quote]

well no, not if you don't care about long loading times, then no sure.

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Posted

[quote name='Yogurtmaster' timestamp='1363781469' post='595587828']
1) We don't know that is the case yet.
2) If used correctly I wouldn't see an issue with this. Examples: Part of your world could be changed dynamically as you play it by using the cloud or you could have an option that you turn on where people could spectate your game play. Maybe a character could interact with you using the latest news or technology headlines.

Using online could actually enhance game play in real time in the background as you play. If used properly of course.
[/quote]

Don't disagree with any of that.

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Posted

[quote name='Blackhearted' timestamp='1363784777' post='595587924']
The fact that the (worthless) kinect is forced upon you and included in the box makes the earlier reports of the xbox 3 being significantly underpowered(compared to the ps4) seem all the more true.[/quote]

I wouldn't call it worthless. It's not for everyone. I have one and have found limited use. For navigation it's actually easier and faster if a controller is nearby. If not, it is convenient to be able to then speak your way through. Of course talking out loud for general navigation probably isn't going to be, and hasn't become a big thing to do. If you "have" to connect it, hopefully it has been streamlined. With no motor, it should be much smaller. Also requiring less physical space will help increase its use.

As for the Xbox 3 reportedly being underpowered compared to the PS4. That is the interpretation of PS fans. Most centered around GDDR5 vs. DDR3. While all things being equal GDDR5 is faster, and more expensive, there are many things that can be done to erase or eliminate the modest real world performance gain. And talking 8GB, it could result in a significant console price difference. Cost means a LOT these days.

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Posted

[quote]
Sure they refer to it as a way of keeping the console and your games always up to date when you're not using it, and they didn't explicitly state it was DRM. But lets be honest, the way the industry is headed today, it's going to be some form of DRM. In fact, it already technically is, [b]since it's not going to allow used games.[/quote][/b]

That is the issue with always connected. If it is indeed that, and Sony does not implement this, it'll be a disaster for the Xbox platform. This is the critical spec everyone is waiting for clarification on.

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Posted

[quote name='MorganX' timestamp='1363791633' post='595588164']
I wouldn't call it worthless. It's not for everyone. I have one and have found limited use. For navigation it's actually easier and faster if a controller is nearby. If not, it is convenient to be able to then speak your way through. Of course talking out loud for general navigation probably isn't going to be, and hasn't become a big thing to do. If you "have" to connect it, hopefully it has been streamlined. With no motor, it should be much smaller. Also requiring less physical space will help increase its use.

As for the Xbox 3 reportedly being underpowered compared to the PS4. That is the interpretation of PS fans. Most centered around GDDR5 vs. DDR3. While all things being equal GDDR5 is faster, and more expensive, there are many things that can be done to erase or eliminate the modest real world performance gain. And talking 8GB, it could result in a significant console price difference. Cost means a LOT these days.
[/quote]

Going solely by the leaked specs, the compute power of the Xbox 3 is 1.23 TFlops, the PS4's is 1.85 TFlops. It's not really interpretation, it's based on the numbers we have so far. That's pretty much the difference between a model range in PC GPU's. AMD 7770 vs. AMD 7850. or Nvidia GTX 650 vs. GTX 660.

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[quote name='giantpotato' timestamp='1363792051' post='595588190']
Going solely by the leaked specs, the compute power of the Xbox 3 is 1.23 TFlops, the PS4's is 1.85 TFlops. It's not really interpretation, it's based on the numbers we have so far. That's pretty much the difference between a model range in PC GPU's. AMD 7770 vs. AMD 7850. or Nvidia GTX 650 vs. GTX 660.
[/quote]

And as we found with the PS3, specs alone don't tell you the whole picture.
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I don't think anyone read my post..


[b]This is most likely only for the XDK Kits. Microsoft had bad issues with 360 XDKs getting out in the wild and resorted to bricking unauthorized XDKS (by using the MAC address of a console that had been marked off, stolen, lost, broken..) Now, you have to submit your IP to microsoft to have it whitelisted.[/b]

With that said, the real reason microsoft requires this on retail consoles is,

[img]http://cuddlebuggery.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/aliens-meme.jpeg[/img]

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Posted

[quote name='giantpotato' timestamp='1363792051' post='595588190']
Going solely by the leaked specs, the compute power of the Xbox 3 is 1.23 TFlops, the PS4's is 1.85 TFlops. It's not really interpretation, it's based on the numbers we have so far. That's pretty much the difference between a model range in PC GPU's. AMD 7770 vs. AMD 7850. or Nvidia GTX 650 vs. GTX 660.
[/quote]

Actually it is open to interpretation. It depends on bus configuration and throughput throughout the system, system and graphics caching, shared cache, memory, memory allocation, etc. etc.

Edit: No one even knows the performance impact of the four Move engines.

"Durango hardware has four [i][b]move engine[/b]s[/i] for fast direct memory access (DMA)
This accelerators are truly fixed-function, in the sense that their algorithms are embedded in hardware. They can usually be considered [b][i]black boxes[/i][/b] with no intermediate results that are visible to software. When used for their designed purpose, however, they can offload work from the rest of the system and obtain useful results at minimal cost.

The four move engines all have a common baseline ability to move memory in any combination of the following ways:[list]
[*]From main RAM or from ESRAM
[*]To main RAM or to ESRAM
[*]From linear or tiled memory format
[*]To linear or tiled memory format
[*]From a sub-rectangle of a texture
[*]To a sub-rectangle of a texture
[*]From a sub-box of a 3D texture
[*]To a sub-box of a 3D texture
[/list]
The move engines can also be used to set an area of memory to a constant value."

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Posted

I'm going to buy both consoles anyway, who cares.

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Posted

[quote name='giantpotato' timestamp='1363792051' post='595588190']
Going solely by the leaked specs, the compute power of the Xbox 3 is 1.23 TFlops, the PS4's is 1.85 TFlops. It's not really interpretation, it's based on the numbers we have so far. That's pretty much the difference between a model range in PC GPU's. AMD 7770 vs. AMD 7850. or Nvidia GTX 650 vs. GTX 660.
[/quote]

Pure data crunching performance means absolutely NOTHING in real world performance of course. even if these use mostly the same architecture there are key differences, for example the two move engines in the nextbox could have a huge impact on certain graphics performance as well as other performance and eliminate that whole gap and give advantages in certain situations to the xbox.

so you can't just look by the numbers of fantasyflops one APU pushes vs another. that's just one piece of a very big puzzle.

[quote name='MorganX' timestamp='1363792337' post='595588212']
Actually it is open to interpretation. It depends on bus configuration and throughput throughout the system, system and graphics caching, shared cache, memory, memory allocation, etc. etc.

Edit: No one even knows the performance impact of the four Move engines.

"Durango hardware has four [i][b]move engine[/b]s[/i] for fast direct memory access (DMA)
This accelerators are truly fixed-function, in the sense that their algorithms are embedded in hardware. They can usually be considered [b][i]black boxes[/i][/b] with no intermediate results that are visible to software. When used for their designed purpose, however, they can offload work from the rest of the system and obtain useful results at minimal cost.

The four move engines all have a common baseline ability to move memory in any combination of the following ways:[list]
[*]From main RAM or from ESRAM
[*]To main RAM or to ESRAM
[*]From linear or tiled memory format
[*]To linear or tiled memory format
[*]From a sub-rectangle of a texture
[*]To a sub-rectangle of a texture
[*]From a sub-box of a 3D texture
[*]To a sub-box of a 3D texture
[/list]
The move engines can also be used to set an area of memory to a constant value."
[/quote]


basically they free up a LOT of work that the PS4 has to do with shaders, stuff the shaders aren't actually optimized for since.. they're.. shaders...

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Posted

The Move Engines are for Kinect, hardware compression/decompression, they are mainly used to maximise the throughput limited RAM and to ease CPU burden not to supplement GPU power. They are basically just the SPUs like on the CELL CPU.

All the shaders on the PS4 are beefed up anyway, it was originally only going to be 4 of the 18 CUs but all 18 will have extra ALU.

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[quote name='theyarecomingforyou' timestamp='1363792245' post='595588202']
And as we found with the PS3, specs alone don't tell you the whole picture.
[/quote]

I agree, but in this case both platforms are using the same GPUs, so this time around the specs are easier to compare.


[quote name='MorganX' timestamp='1363792337' post='595588212']
Actually it is open to interpretation. It depends on bus configuration and throughput throughout the system, system and graphics caching, shared cache, memory, memory allocation, etc. etc.

Edit: No one even knows the performance impact of the four Move engines.

"Durango hardware has four [i][b]move engine[/b]s[/i] for fast direct memory access (DMA)
This accelerators are truly fixed-function, in the sense that their algorithms are embedded in hardware. They can usually be considered [b][i]black boxes[/i][/b] with no intermediate results that are visible to software. When used for their designed purpose, however, they can offload work from the rest of the system and obtain useful results at minimal cost.

The four move engines all have a common baseline ability to move memory in any combination of the following ways:[list]
[*]From main RAM or from ESRAM
[*]To main RAM or to ESRAM
[*]From linear or tiled memory format
[*]To linear or tiled memory format
[*]From a sub-rectangle of a texture
[*]To a sub-rectangle of a texture
[*]From a sub-box of a 3D texture
[*]To a sub-box of a 3D texture
[/list]
The move engines can also be used to set an area of memory to a constant value."
[/quote]

All of the functions the move engines handle are normally handled by the CPU, if anything they would take load off the CPU, not the GPU. Most games nowadays are bottlenecked by GPU performance, not CPU performance.

Yes, overall performance is based on the throughput of the system, but using a PC as an example, you're not going to get the performance of a GTX 660 on a GTX 650 by upgrading your motherboard. Yes, you can squeeze some additional performance with a better motherboard, but you're going to be limited by the GPU.

Again, this is just based on the leaked specs, so for all we know the XBOX could indeed be faster.

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[quote name='theyarecomingforyou' timestamp='1363792245' post='595588202']
And as we found with the PS3, specs alone don't tell you the whole picture.
[/quote]

When they're both of the same architecture, which these gpus are said to be, the specs actually do tell the whole picture. As unlike the previous consoles, those [i]can[/i] be directly compared with one another.

[quote name='HawkMan' timestamp='1363793451' post='595588256']
[b]Pure data crunching performance means absolutely NOTHING in real world performance of course.[/b] even if these use mostly the same architecture there are key differences, for example the two move engines in the nextbox could have a huge impact on certain graphics performance as well as other performance and eliminate that whole gap and give advantages in certain situations to the xbox.

so you can't just look by the numbers of fantasyflops one APU pushes vs another. that's just one piece of a very big puzzle.
[/quote]

Sure it doesn't. And by that logic a radeon 6670 would be just as fast as my 6870. :rolleyes:

Also, the move engines would have to be alot more than they actually are to be able to make up for the sizeable difference between the reported specs.

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Posted

As long as this thing allows me to continue my ridiculous obsession with Achievement Points (yes, I capitalized that) then yes, I'll buy it.
If, however, they change the "Boink" sound. I'm out. ;-)
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[quote name='giantpotato' timestamp='1363793908' post='595588294']
Yes, overall performance is based on the throughput of the system, but using a PC as an example, you're not going to get the performance of a GTX 660 on a GTX 650 by upgrading your motherboard.
[/quote]

I did want to comment on this. PCs play games well through sheer horsepower. They should perform even better than they do as compared to consoles. Much of that horsepower is eaten by sheer resolution. PCs internal busses are not optimized for the singular task of play games. You can compare the end result, but not how they get there.

You probably could get from a 650 to 660 performance if the motherboard, chipset, and memory were optimized for facilitating maximum effective fill rate, moving and manipulating textures, etc. etc. All things being equal, the more powerful GPU should result in a more powerful system overall. However, things are not equal.

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Posted

They are requiring hdd installs so that later on when they offer downloadable games nothing has to be changed. I really hope the next xbox has hdmi in. I would get it to replace my aging google tv Blu-ray player (1st gen).

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[quote name='Blackhearted' timestamp='1363794309' post='595588320']When they're both of the same architecture, which these gpus are said to be, the specs actually do tell the whole picture. As unlike the previous consoles, those [i]can[/i] be directly compared with one another.[/quote]

The quality of games is also dependent upon the development tools and support offered by the manufacturer, somewhere Sony has traditionally been weaker. And while Sony has confirmed the specs for the PS4, Microsoft has not done so and could respond with some changes. I wouldn't read too much into them at this point.

That said, if both consoles are targeted at the same price point it's logical to assume that the inclusion of the Kinect with all X720 SKUs will result in a lower spec for the base console - that will be compounded if the mandatory installs requirement dictates a greater amount of storage. I mean, a 1TB drive will only be able to store 20 games at 50GB (the capacity of the Blu-ray discs) - even if you assume games will take less than half that, anything less than 1TB will require major juggling of installs and could end up annoying a lot of users.

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[quote name='TheLegendOfMart' timestamp='1363793710' post='595588284']
They are basically just the SPUs like on the CELL CPU.
[/quote]

The SPUs were clearly intended to boost graphic performance/capability. I'm not sure anyone ever mastered them well enough to produced the theoretical performance benefits though. This was apparently one of the more difficult parts of the PS3 to code for and master. Killzone 3 took advantage of them I this way:

"The SPU's were utilized using the Havok engine for physics processing rather than the PS3's dedicated physics processor. Similarly, several graphical processes, like anti-aliasing, were shifted to the SPUs in order to free up the graphics processor for other tasks. Such a move allows the AI scaling to be much more robust."

We just won't know until some real world performance is shown.

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Posted

That was my point, the Move Engines are nothing more than SPUs were on PS3, people are talking like they are some super special silicon that is going to boost GPU performance, at best they will offer "free" antialiasing. They are mainly there to get around the slow bandwidth of the DDR3 RAM.

The PS4 has beefed up ALUs on all the CUs of the GPU, so physics is moot.

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