157 posts in this topic

Posted

[quote name='BajiRav' timestamp='1363867363' post='595590026']
If mandatory installs are like Office 2013 streaming installs, it won't be much of a problem really.

Always on, always connected sounds more like a marketing term than a requirement. I guess it will be same as ps4 and will be using the connected standby mode for updates.
[/quote]

It is a marketing term really, I remember them using it before for other things.

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Posted

[quote name='HawkMan' timestamp='1363810560' post='595588932']
Errr. size on disk has no relevance to what resolution the game runs at, in fact chances are a game with smaller disk size would in fact run at higher resolution on the console, and last I checked more games ran at high er res on the 360 than the PS3, especially multi platform games.

that argument makes no sense at all.
[/quote]
What? If it is a higher resolution, they can in theory use higher quality textures and assetts, which would not doubt take up more disk space.
And again, taking words out of context to make your point. My words clearly stated...


[quote][color=#282828]Actually it might. A decent amount of those games he listed from the PS3 run at a slightly higher resolution then 360 games. Somebody took the time to figure out the native resolution of [/color][url="http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46241"]most games on each system here[/url][color=#282828]. The games that do run at a similar resolution on the 360 also sometimes come with two disks (Halo 4).[/color][/quote]
I was in fact looking at the games TheLegendOfMart posted, and it is pretty easy to see those first party Sony titles usually run at a higher resolution then the 1st party developed MS titles. Not sure how or why, but considering how extensive the page I posted was, I take this persons word for it.



[quote name='The_Decryptor' timestamp='1363811276' post='595588980']
With Halo 4, the second disk is purely multiplayer content, and the most likely reason it's separate is so that you can install the disk to your console (I don't think the Xbox supports installing specific content from a disk to the HDD, it's an all or nothing type affair)
[/quote]
Is it not the MP content because both SP and MP could not fit on one disk? How is that not running out of room?

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Posted

[quote name='DirtyLarry' timestamp='1363869178' post='595590068']

What? If it is a higher resolution, they can in theory use higher quality textures and assetts, which would not doubt take up more disk space.
And again, taking words out of context to make your point. My words clearly stated...

[/quote]

Which was my point, the games with higher res assets would then give lower frame rates, not higher as you claimed. But that wasn't what you said anyway. You said bigger disks meant the game could run at higher resolution, a connection that doesn't exist, anywhere. No as I said, in that case it would be the other way, the games with bigger disks and thus higher red assets would then have to run a lower res to compensate.

There was toying out of context about my quote there.


Also some first party MS titles technically run at higher res, since they render each scene twice, ref. Halo games, which use double pass rendering.

Point being, disk size has nothing to do with render size. And as ha been pointed out numerous times, the PS3 didn't have enough memory to really make use of the BD storage space.

[quote name='DirtyLarry' timestamp='1363869178' post='595590068']

Is it not the MP content because both SP and MP could not fit on one disk? How is that not running out of room?
[/quote]

Same assets on mp and sp. jus different map files, the map files themselves aren't that big, it's the assets that eat up room.

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Posted

I can't see what any of the issues are.

When I used to be a PC gamer (pre-steam's preloader) I would have to INSTALL the game before I could play it. If i ran out of space on my HDD I would either uninstall a game or buy a new HDD. So everyone moaning about that is clearly nuts or under 20.

Installing onto the Xbox 360 & PS3 is optional and i presume a minority used it, but having it mandatory for the next Xbox isn't a deal breaker, it bares no impact on my gaming experience and entertainment. thats why i buy a console to get entertainment. If it loads quicker then its great. I can't see how this is a negative point at all.

Always on/connected - Not an issue, my pc/laptop is always connected to the internet when its turned on, and my 360 automatically connects to Xbox Live. Can't really see how thats an issue? As long as the DRM thats implemented isn't invasive in any way and detrements my gaming experience then I couldn't care less.

Kinect bundled with the Xbox and being required to plug in? - Great! I've always toyed with the idea of getting a Kinect but never got round to it. Having it with the new xbox means devs can integrate it more and actually make it worthwhile to have. Yes having it plugged in as a requirement is a pain but get over it. As yet we don't know why thats required or what they intend to use it for other than the obvious so any comments really are uneccesary until we at least know more.

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Posted

It's very likely that Kinect is integrated into nextBox and only thing you need to "connect" are the actual sensors(cameras, mics etc.) which for practical reasons can't be integrated.

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Posted

[quote name='sharpy2k4' timestamp='1363875430' post='595590276']
When I used to be a PC gamer (pre-steam's preloader) I would have to INSTALL the game before I could play it. If i ran out of space on my HDD I would either uninstall a game or buy a new HDD. So everyone moaning about that is clearly nuts or under 20.
[/quote]
You've never been able to play the game from a CD/DVD in the PC, you've always had to install it, so the comparison is silly.

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Posted

[quote name='sharpy2k4' timestamp='1363875430' post='595590276']
Kinect bundled with the Xbox and being required to plug in? - Great! I've always toyed with the idea of getting a Kinect but never got round to it. Having it with the new xbox means devs can integrate it more and actually make it worthwhile to have. Yes having it plugged in as a requirement is a pain but get over it. As yet we don't know why thats required or what they intend to use it for other than the obvious so any comments really are uneccesary until we at least know more.
[/quote]

Having it included with the system doesn't really changed the fact that flailing your arms around like a fool has no practical use outside of things like just dance and kinect sports.

[quote name='TheLegendOfMart' timestamp='1363877227' post='595590352']
You've never been able to play the game from a CD/DVD in the PC, you've always had to install it, so the comparison is silly.
[/quote]

Actually i'm pretty sure i remember playing The Ultimate Doom straight from the CD many many years ago.

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Posted

[quote name='sharpy2k4' timestamp='1363875430' post='595590276']When I used to be a PC gamer (pre-steam's preloader) I would have to INSTALL the game before I could play it. If i ran out of space on my HDD I would either uninstall a game or buy a new HDD. So everyone moaning about that is clearly nuts or under 20.

Installing onto the Xbox 360 & PS3 is optional and i presume a minority used it, but having it mandatory for the next Xbox isn't a deal breaker, it bares no impact on my gaming experience and entertainment. thats why i buy a console to get entertainment. If it loads quicker then its great. I can't see how this is a negative point at all.[/quote]

At the moment (most) console games don't require any install. By making installs mandatory it means that users will have to manage storage space, particularly if the included storage is limited (I'd be surprised if Microsoft included more than 1TB of storage, which would only be enough for 20 installs at maximum size). I can easily see how that would be annoying for console gamers who haven't had to put up with that before.

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Posted

[quote name='Blackhearted' timestamp='1363877690' post='595590368']
Actually i'm pretty sure i remember playing The Ultimate Doom straight from the CD many many years ago.
[/quote]
Games that originally came on floppies yes.

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Posted

[quote name='sharpy2k4' timestamp='1363875430' post='595590276']
I can't see what any of the issues are.

When I used to be a PC gamer (pre-steam's preloader) I would have to INSTALL the game before I could play it. If i ran out of space on my HDD I would either uninstall a game or buy a new HDD. So everyone moaning about that is clearly nuts or under 20.

Installing onto the Xbox 360 & PS3 is optional and i presume a minority used it, but having it mandatory for the next Xbox isn't a deal breaker, it bares no impact on my gaming experience and entertainment. thats why i buy a console to get entertainment. If it loads quicker then its great. I can't see how this is a negative point at all.
[/quote]

Consoles should have the ability to pop in a disc and play without any PC-like system set up. It seems the Nextbox will have something along these lines, but it still requires an install behind the scenes. Installing the game does have advantages, but with proprietary HDDs and limited space, install swapping is more than a fringe concern. And it something that should NOT even be in the picture. It's not a problem on PCs because people can get large, inexpensive HDDs from where ever they want. That is not the case with consoles.

[quote name='sharpy2k4' timestamp='1363875430' post='595590276']
Always on/connected - Not an issue, my pc/laptop is always connected to the internet when its turned on, and my 360 automatically connects to Xbox Live. Can't really see how thats an issue? As long as the DRM thats implemented isn't invasive in any way and detrements my gaming experience then I couldn't care less.
[/quote]

Your last sentence in that paragraph is the crux of the issue. Anyone who thinks the "always on, always online" is not DRM is fooling themselves. It is going to prevent used games and will most likely prevent offline play in order to stop piracy. (which of course won't work, and it will only affect legitimate customers as usual) As long as we can play our games offline when our internet decides not to work, then I'm fine with the always online "feature" too. However, this feature is still too vague so we will have to wait for specifics.

[quote name='sharpy2k4' timestamp='1363875430' post='595590276']
Kinect bundled with the Xbox and being required to plug in? - Great! I've always toyed with the idea of getting a Kinect but never got round to it. Having it with the new xbox means devs can integrate it more and actually make it worthwhile to have. Yes having it plugged in as a requirement is a pain but get over it. As yet we don't know why thats required or what they intend to use it for other than the obvious so any comments really are uneccesary until we at least know more.
[/quote]

Kinect is, and always will be, a gimmicky piece of hardware that no "true" gamer will want or need. Visual gestures and voice commands won't add any tangible value to typical games; and it will only ever be truly useful in dancing/exercise games. And it has already impacted those who don't want it because of the changes to the 360 dashboard. The nextbox [i]requiring[/i] that it be plugged in is evidence that it's going to be a big part of the console's user experience which is not exciting for those of us who don't want it. Again, a feature like this should be optional.

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Posted

As the info leak gets confirmed, the always on issue is beginning to pick up Internet steam, with prevention of playing used games being the focal point.

After install to HD, the Blu-Ray is unusable on another system???? Or rather uninstallable????

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In terms of a legal stand point can they really end the used games market? Surely by their means of DRM to prevent used games being played will close down lots of businesses which im sure is against some fair trade acts or whatever.

Personally - I used to buy used games when I owned the orignal xbox, because i had limited income and you could actually get decent deals in the UK. Nowadays the games I would want to play are still near retail price even pre-owned, the value you get for a trade in is ridiculous and you might as well save for another week and buy the game brand new. That and with the bargains you can get on the internet I always go new over pre-owned as theres only usually a

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[quote name='MorganX' timestamp='1363878811' post='595590404']
After install to HD, the Blu-Ray is unusable on another system???? Or rather uninstallable????
[/quote]

You will likely have an activation code, like with Windows. Once you have activated your game you can probably play it offline on that console to your hearts content. Of course if you put the disc in another console the disc will work, however the activation code will have already been used. Again exactly like Windows, I could use my disc to install it on someone else's computer however my serial number would not activate it.

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[quote name='sharpy2k4' timestamp='1363879165' post='595590410']
In terms of a legal stand point can they really end the used games market? Surely by their means of DRM to prevent used games being played will close down lots of businesses which im sure is against some fair trade acts or whatever.[/quote]
No different than 99% of PC games that require cdkeys.
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Posted

[quote name='TheLegendOfMart' timestamp='1363880475' post='595590446']
No different than 99% of PC games that require cdkeys.
[/quote]

www.gog.com,
Drm free, Activation free pc games.

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Posted

Yes there are always exceptions to the rule but with the odd exception all modern games come with cdkeys and/or require activation on steam/origin/uplay/etc..
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If and this is still a big IF, they do some form of activation code it'd be much the same as devs having you pay for a new online pass for your used game. If a new code for a used disc is cheap it might not be a issue in the end. Again though, this is a big IF and until something official comes out we're all guessing here. The leaked documents don't say anything about used games or activation.

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Posted

[quote name='GP007' timestamp='1363881807' post='595590482']
The leaked documents don't say anything about used games or activation.
[/quote]
Why would they, the leaked documents are from the SDK that's meant for developers.

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Posted

I don't see why anyone would have to manually manage installs. The game installs in the background, so you can start playing as soon as you pop in the disc, it's no different than it is today. There could be a setting to automatically uninstall the oldest played game when running low on disc space, so you don't have to worry about running out of space.

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Posted

[quote name='TheLegendOfMart' timestamp='1363882027' post='595590488']
Why would they, the leaked documents are from the SDK that's meant for developers.
[/quote]

And those two things wouldn't be important to developers why? At the least needing activation would be pretty important to the people making the game.

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Posted

That stuff probably hasn't even been finalized yet or wasn't at the time of the issue of the SDK and documentation, these documents are like a year old.

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Posted

[quote name='InsaneNutter' timestamp='1363879247' post='595590414']


You will likely have an activation code, like with Windows. Once you have activated your game you can probably play it offline on that console to your hearts content. Of course if you put the disc in another console the disc will work, however the activation code will have already been used. Again exactly like Windows, I could use my disc to install it on someone else's computer however my serial number would not activate it.
[/quote]

Then there's no need for always on Internet as it relates to game play/install. So we'll have to see just what's up when more details are release as the scenario you describe is basically how it is now. Rather than attached the DRM to the Always on, they should just say activation codes now required. Of course, you should be able to deactivate on a given console if you choose.

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Posted

[quote name='Blackhearted' timestamp='1363877690' post='595590368']
Having it included with the system doesn't really changed the fact that flailing your arms around like a fool has no practical use outside of things like just dance and kinect sports.

[/quote]

controlling videos, navigating menus for IE, netflix and any number of other non gaming stuff without having to pick up a controller which isn't natural to control GUI's with anyway. and choice control to play and pause movies when you get up to do stuff during a movie without picking up a controller. the new Ghost recon game. The reason there's no games that use the Kinect well except for fitness games nowadays is because it's not a natural part of every xbox, and the new Kinect 2.0 is also a LOW more accurate and sees a lot more detail. You don't need to flail. just like unlike the movies, you don't spin the wheel on your car 3 full turns when you do a 90 degree turn.

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[quote name='TheLegendOfMart' timestamp='1363880475' post='595590446']
No different than 99% of PC games that require cdkeys.
[/quote]

True, however there isn't a large market (especially in the UK) for second hand video games for this reason. Most stores if not all refuse Computer games as you used to be able to easily copy and crack, and no proof of uninstallation etc.

Whereas video games once you handed the disc in, you can't play it (unless you managed to copy it and in any case, you'd have a cracked console so would probably pirate the games rather than purchase originally anyway)

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[quote name='spacer' timestamp='1363878701' post='595590400']
Kinect is, and always will be, a gimmicky piece of hardware that no "true" gamer will want or need. Visual gestures and voice commands won't add any tangible value to typical games; and it will only ever be truly useful in dancing/exercise games. And it has already impacted those who don't want it because of the changes to the 360 dashboard. The nextbox [i]requiring[/i] that it be plugged in is evidence that it's going to be a big part of the console's user experience which is not exciting for those of us who don't want it. Again, a feature like this should be optional.
[/quote]

Not true at all. When you can start recognizing fingers and maybe even eye movements as well as head and face you can do a lot of things with that.
Combine that with a cloud service and then illuminroom or the glasses then you can really go places. The only problem is your limited mind.

You can create new game experiences with it and that is what I want. I still love Skyrim, but I am so so tired of the same old games that everyone plays over and over and over again. The video game industry is in a huge rut. If you take something like Heavy Rain and add in the above with the cloud service updating the game on the fly with information and other things, the game can be dynamic and use your voice and fingers to do things in the game. Take out the quick time events in the game and interact in real-time that would be cool. Then maybe either add illuminroom / glasses and you can really start to change things.

The last thing you need is some form of physical feedback that you can feel and you would be good to go.

You can continue to play the same games we have been playing for 20 years with better graphics and some online play, or you can look for something beyond that. I am headed beyond that. I think that video games can become as mainstream as movies, but you will need to make some changes that are huge and that is fine with me.

You know what I find funny is now that I am working on my business I find so many things I would invest in. From 3D Printing to new Kinect Experiences that take all of the next generation technologies and combines them to make things more interactive and a lot more interesting.

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