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Just how many people hate Windows 8?

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I avoid Metro Search and All Apps like the plague currently.

On that I concur 100%. Blue should improve search, I'm unclear as to who actually ever needs All Apps. That's such a worthless and time wasting view IMO.

Even though I rarely if ever views "All Programs" on the Start Menu, it was more organized and faster to navigate.

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OS X's faux MDI is romper room compared to Windows. Why minimize, just tile or cascade them. Drag and drop between them with ease. Multiple instances of same app, just hover over it on taskbar and view previews, drag and drop from file system to a preview.

This will go on forever, I just couldn't resist. I won't respond to your incoming response, but I will read it in fairness. But we both know it would never actually end, lol.

Have you ever actually used OSX? Based on your response, I would say maybe, but not recently. In fact, since this is a Windows 8 thread, I will say that Quicklook and Spotlight make Windows 8 look like a romper room. The Windows taskbar, since 7, is obviously improved, but it still pales in comparison to Expose, which allows for single application, single screen, and all screen reveals. Not to mention all of these things work just fine on all of Apple's hardware since they can control the type of mouse / trackpad that comes with their computers, where as Windows still has to cater to the lowest common denominator "two buttons on a wire" mouse.

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Have you ever actually used OSX? Based on your response, I would say maybe, but not recently. In fact, since this is a Windows 8 thread, I will say that Quicklook and Spotlight make Windows 8 look like a romper room. The Windows taskbar, since 7, is obviously improved, but it still pales in comparison to Expose, which allows for single application, single screen, and all screen reveals. Not to mention all of these things work just fine on all of Apple's hardware since they can control the type of mouse / trackpad that comes with their computers, where as Windows still has to cater to the lowest common denominator "two buttons on a wire" mouse.

haahha, yes. 2 Macs, 1 2009 iMac, MacBook, & (2 iPads, 4 iPhones).

All those things work, they're just inferior and unnecessary to the extent they are in OS X due to Windows 7's superior MDI and Taskbar. :p

FWIW, though I sold it on eBay for a great resell price, Win 7 was just beautiful and fast on the iMac. Too bad those things weren't very upgradeable beyond memory. Still the iMacs are the most beautiful AIOs made IMO.

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I've been using Windows 8 since launch and I can't see myself going back to Win7. Just using the new super-sized start menu for finding things is awesome by itself, and I even use it to find advanced system stuff like the control panel. Plus its startup time is uber-awesomex3

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haahha, yes. 2 Macs, 1 2009 iMac, MacBook, & (2 iPads, 4 iPhones).

All those things work, they're just inferior and unnecessary to the extent they are in OS X due to Windows 7's superior MDI and Taskbar. :p

FWIW, though I sold it on eBay for a great resell price, Win 7 was just beautiful and fast on the iMac. Too bad those things weren't very upgradeable beyond memory. Still the iMacs are the most beautiful AIOs made IMO.

Except, the Windows 7 > taskbar was stolen from OSX. :laugh:

And expose > taskbar previews, because it shows you your open windows at a reasonable size, and it can do it for all your applications or all your Windows, and you can use it without moving your mouse.

I would also point out that, in a thread about Windows 8, assuming we're talking about both desktop and tablet applications, the Windows MDI is just a wee bit inconsistent these days. But, I'll leave that alone, since until Apple integrates iOS into OSX somehow, there's no good comparison.

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Windows 8, assuming we're talking about both desktop and tablet applications

That's a low blow :D

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That's a low blow :D

It is and it isn't. :laugh:

Which is more awkward, going from a desktop application to a metro/modern/W8 application, or going from your computer, to your iPad, back to your computer? I don't know about you, but I can't quite alt+tab my hands.

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Even without touch, bigger elements on screen are needed, unless you plan on hitting tinier and tinier objects as screen resolutions get bigger. Which is why I'm a fan of the Start Screen. Even on my 1680x1050 screen, 32x32 and 16x16 icons were worthless. You couldn't see them, let alone hit them with a precise hit.

I don't have any problems seeing and hitting icons in windows 7 on my 1920x1200 resolution.

This has me wondering if windows 8 zealotry can be blamed on poor vision, unable to see the ugly abomination on front of their face /s

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It is and it isn't. :laugh:

Which is more awkward, going from a desktop application to a metro/modern/W8 application, or going from your computer, to your iPad, back to your computer? I don't know about you, but I can't quite alt+tab my hands.

I agree. But it's still a low blow to hold what MS has done with the hybrid implementation which is still so rough it can be called a kludge as far as being on the desktop goes.

I actually would have preferred the Start Menu become the App switch bar button. Seems more natural to me. Going upper left is never natural IMO, especially with full screen apps and the ability to close an app from there or access Menus up there (Office). That's just me.

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Microsoft is going through a period of lack of leadership, vision, and being disconnected from their consumers due to finding themselves so far behind the mobile growth trend, it may be unrecoverable. They, in desperation, are trying to leverage their desktop dominance to make inroads in those mobile market segments.

1) They need new, connected, dynamic leadership.

2) They must continue, as Blue leaks suggest, to listen to, and address the complaints of their base and respond as much as possible.

Couldn't agree more. As I have said many times, if they wanted Windows 8 to be a success they should have delivered a very clear, powerful, and connected ecosystem. That takes strong leadership who gets the whole company working toward the right goals and Microsoft lacks that at present.

+ 1K

You CAN turn off Secured Boot, on Intel PCs. If you're crying over the Surface RT, ask yourself this, why would I pay top dollar for a top line device, just to potentially break it by loading third party firmware?

That was a joke I'd assume? Just because you're an "average" user who only cares to use the device in the way the OEM shipped it to you...

I'm a software developer for a reason. I don't like to use computers the way someone else told me I should use them. I like to use them the way I think it should be used...

If something breaks I'm competent enough to fix it. This is why I said this should be an option, just like my Nexus 4, so only the technical users will dabble with it in the first place.

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Couldn't agree more. As I have said many times, if they wanted Windows 8 to be a success they should have delivered a very clear, powerful, and connected ecosystem. That takes strong leadership who gets the whole company working toward the right goals and Microsoft lacks that at present.

I agree with you both. Microsoft is doomed to fail in the long term without a change of leadership. They desperately need some new blood in there.

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Windows 8 is solid internally, but it is a considerable disaster GUI wise!!! A consistent GUI is the key to success, Windows 8's GUI is very very inconsistent! When you click on user accounts in desktop, it opens in metro. Another example, when you click on the wifi icon, it opens a metro like panel. At least in Windows 7, everything is consistent, there are no different looking menus etc!

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That was a joke I'd assume? Just because you're an "average" user who only cares to use the device in the way the OEM shipped it to you...

I'm a software developer for a reason. I don't like to use computers the way someone else told me I should use them. I like to use them the way I think it should be used...

If something breaks I'm competent enough to fix it. This is why I said this should be an option, just like my Nexus 4, so only the technical users will dabble with it in the first place.

No. Like it or not, the market is moving away from that. If ABC device doesn't fit your needs, then buy XYZ device instead. Companies want to provide a specific supported UX, which is specifically the reason Apple and Microsoft are doing what they are doing. It keeps support costs down, knowing that your customer isn't off trying to do something the device wasn't meant to do.

I am far from an "average" user, I build my own PCs and use them to their potential, but laptops and tablets are not meant to do that. They're devices bought for a specific need or reason. Not to tinker with.

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Well now that makes no sense at all.

Sense...?? Sense...???

My God man, this is neowin, you're not gonna find sense here... just deleted posts, locked threads and rabid fanboism.

Don't worry, this post will be deleted real quick, as the truth hurts. Oh well, such is life, so be it.

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No. Like it or not, the market is moving away from that. If ABC device doesn't fit your needs, then buy XYZ device instead. Companies want to provide a specific supported UX, which is specifically the reason Apple and Microsoft are doing what they are doing. It keeps support costs down, knowing that your customer isn't off trying to do something the device wasn't meant to do.

I am far from an "average" user, I build my own PCs and use them to their potential, but laptops and tablets are not meant to do that. They're devices bought for a specific need or reason. Not to tinker with.

I don't think the market is really moving away from that as much as companies want to force the market that way. The computing as an appliance future that Apple championed and now Microsoft is trying to copy is great for the companies, but ultimately a disaster for us consumers. We're left with less choice and companies are able to forcibly chain us up in ways that don't benefit us. Do you like Google search, but want a Windows device? Too bad you'll be forced to adhere to deep Bing integration. Do you like Firefox, but want an iPad or Windows tablet? Too bad, you'll need to use Safari or IE since you can't install a custom browser on either platform (RT variant for Windows).

Ultimately, computing has become what it is today due to the relatively open nature of the ecosystem. With a conversion of everything to an appliance we'll see future innovation stifled as deep restrictions will make certain ideas impossible to even attempt. Take Facebook Home for instance, I'm not interested in it, but it is something that is only possible on Android at present. Windows on the desktop has always allowed a shell change, but the RT variant breaks that tradition. If a developer came up with a good cool Start Screen replacement for Windows Tablets and/or Phones he would have no possible way of pursuing that and users will never get to use it.

I know you're wholeheartedly behind Microsoft on whatever they do so I don't expect you to agree with me, but to herald this as a great future is akin to cutting off the nose to spite the face.

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Except, the Windows 7 > taskbar was stolen from OSX. :laugh:

wait... what ? .... ROFL!!!

And expose > taskbar previews, because it shows you your open windows at a reasonable size, and it can do it for all your applications or all your Windows, and you can use it without moving your mouse.

For multitasking superbar beats the crap out of expose. I ave no interest in seeing the content of my windows. and if I do then peak is better as it actually shows me my windows in FULL size. but for multitasking and task switching. quickly switching with the taskbar beats opening the expose windows and then finding the right app by analyzing the thumbnails and then clicking it.

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Install classic start menu . Then say you hate windows 8. it even has an option to disable the hot corners. It is also free.

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wait... what ? .... ROFL!!!

For multitasking superbar beats the crap out of expose. I ave no interest in seeing the content of my windows. and if I do then peak is better as it actually shows me my windows in FULL size. but for multitasking and task switching. quickly switching with the taskbar beats opening the expose windows and then finding the right app by analyzing the thumbnails and then clicking it.

The OSX dock is fundamentally a list of icons which had indicators for running programs, where as the old Windows taskbar was a list of icons and then a list of running programs. Except for the fact that it's not center aligned, the Windows superbar is pretty similar to the OSX dock, except it still doesn't do notifications as well.

And no, you'll never convince me that the Windows taskbar is better than expose because, as I mentioned earlier, I don't have to move my mouse to run Expose, and there are many more options for filtering what windows you see. That's besides the fact that OSX handles virtual desktops better as well. But, Windows still has a better alt+tab interface, and that's pretty much all I need in Windows, and I have it assigned to a mouse button.

Six of one, half dozen of the other, but to argue that Windows is "clearly superior" in terms of multitasking is a bit disingenuous.

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The computing as an appliance future that Apple championed and now Microsoft is trying to copy is great for the companies, but ultimately a disaster for us consumers.<<

Ultimately, computing has become what it is today due to the relatively open nature of the ecosystem. With a conversion of everything to an appliance we'll see future innovation stifled as deep restrictions will make certain ideas impossible to even attempt.

Funny thing is that was Apple's business model from the beginning which is why MS dominated them so thoroughly on the desktop. Low volume, high margin, built-in obsolescence from a base that was willing to do that as they felt superior.

Windows was a computer on every desktop. High volume, open hardware platform, license the software.

They are both becoming IBM in their gluttonous bureaucracy ruled by shareholders. Perhaps history will repeat itself and an innovative upstart(s) will supplant them against all odds. Doubtful, but the opportunity is there.

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Funny thing is that was Apple's business model from the beginning which is why MS dominated them so thoroughly on the desktop. Low volume, high margin, built-in obsolescence from a base that was willing to do that as they felt superior.

Windows was a computer on every desktop. High volume, open hardware platform, license the software.

They are both becoming IBM in their gluttonous bureaucracy ruled by shareholders. Perhaps history will repeat itself and an innovative upstart(s) will supplant them against all odds. Doubtful, but the opportunity is there.

Agreed. The way Microsoft came to dominate computing, as you mentioned, is what most fascinates me about this new direction from them. Truly this is a sign of how hubris Microsoft has become and, as you said, IBM like.

At present it looks like Google may be the company that ends up challenging them the most, but I don't think they'll ultimately win in all areas. The one major benefit a rising Google will have, IMHO, is the acceptance of open source software as a core part of our computing paradigm. Although Google may, or may not, dominate the future there will be a healthy blossoming of alternatives via slight variations of the existing system (akin to custom roms on Android) to full on forks (akin to Ubuntu Phone). Hopefully this continued push down the road of open computing keeps its steam. It is still early enough for Microsoft to wake up, but I doubt this is realistic without a major change in leadership.

Strange how this was is being waged. You have Google using the same tactics Microsoft used to rise to power and MS forgetting its past.

Either way, I hope Microsoft fails in their current direction. A future where our computers are appliances will act like a death anchor around our feet. I can't see a good future where we aren't free to chose any software we want to do the task at hand. I shudder to think if this had already been achieved on the Desktop we'd still be sitting on IE 6...

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At present it looks like Google may be the company that ends up challenging them the most, but I don't think they'll ultimately win in all areas. The one major benefit a rising Google will have, IMHO, is the acceptance of open source software as a core part of our computing paradigm. Although Google may, or may not, dominate the future there will be a healthy blossoming of alternatives via slight variations of the existing system (akin to custom roms on Android) to full on forks (akin to Ubuntu Phone). Hopefully this continued push down the road of open computing keeps its steam. It is still early enough for Microsoft to wake up, but I doubt this is realistic without a major change in leadership.

Google?!?

You couldn't have picked a worse example. On Chrome OS, you're buying into their operating system, their browser, their productivity suite, their content distribution systems, and all of their services (from which they glean data which they then make money from).

In reality, any company setting up a software distribution system for their own hardware is equally closed. No one should be surprised about Microsoft going this way, they're not following Apple's footsteps, they're following their own footsteps, just the ones on that path that went down their incredibly successful (and incredibly closed) console division.

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Agreed. The way Microsoft came to dominate computing, as you mentioned, is what most fascinates me about this new direction from them. Truly this is a sign of how hubris Microsoft has become and, as you said, IBM like.

At present it looks like Google may be the company that ends up challenging them the most, but I don't think they'll ultimately win in all areas. The one major benefit a rising Google will have, IMHO, is the acceptance of open source software as a core part of our computing paradigm. Although Google may, or may not, dominate the future there will be a healthy blossoming of alternatives via slight variations of the existing system (akin to custom roms on Android) to full on forks (akin to Ubuntu Phone). Hopefully this continued push down the road of open computing keeps its steam. It is still early enough for Microsoft to wake up, but I doubt this is realistic without a major change in leadership.

Strange how this was is being waged. You have Google using the same tactics Microsoft used to rise to power and MS forgetting its past.

Either way, I hope Microsoft fails in their current direction. A future where our computers are appliances will act like a death anchor around our feet. I can't see a good future where we aren't free to chose any software we want to do the task at hand. I shudder to think if this had already been achieved on the Desktop we'd still be sitting on IE 6...

I agree. Besides my couple of issues with Windows 8, my biggest complaint is the attitude of where we are headed. They treat traditional desktop users like second class citizens, when will that change and they completely get rid of the desktop? If things continue the way they are, then soon OS X will be more open than Windows.

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I don't think the market is really moving away from that as much as companies want to force the market that way. The computing as an appliance future that Apple championed and now Microsoft is trying to copy is great for the companies, but ultimately a disaster for us consumers. We're left with less choice and companies are able to forcibly chain us up in ways that don't benefit us. Do you like Google search, but want a Windows device? Too bad you'll be forced to adhere to deep Bing integration. Do you like Firefox, but want an iPad or Windows tablet? Too bad, you'll need to use Safari or IE since you can't install a custom browser on either platform (RT variant for Windows).

People don't care, they eat up Apple devices like nothing.

Windows on the desktop has always allowed a shell change, but the RT variant breaks that tradition. If a developer came up with a good cool Start Screen replacement for Windows Tablets and/or Phones he would have no possible way of pursuing that and users will never get to use it.

What? Where has Windows always allowed shell changes? Microsoft NEVER supported shell changes. Ever. Windows 8 Metro doesn't change that.

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I agree. Besides my couple of issues with Windows 8, my biggest complaint is the attitude of where we are headed. They treat traditional desktop users like second class citizens, when will that change and they completely get rid of the desktop? If things continue the way they are, then soon OS X will be more open than Windows.

Desktop is still first in Windows 8, and OS X and Windows are still equally open, you can run any browser on them, and you can download any program from the internet and run it, and you can run any development software you want on it and write your own programs.

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People don't care, they eat up Apple devices like nothing.

People do care. They just never know they care early on. This is why computing started with closed systems and then ended up with open systems.

Open Systems ultimately win out as people want devices that offer solutions to problems they have. They don't want to have to deal with 50 different devices for every little task.

Closed systems have to fight to keep up with every advancement in competing platforms. Open platforms allow third parties to add those advancements.

What? Where has Windows always allowed shell changes? Microsoft NEVER supported shell changes. Ever. Windows 8 Metro doesn't change that.

Windows has allowed shell changes since a GUI was added... I don't get what you mean by Microsoft doesn't support it. Microsoft doesn't "support" a whole host of things regarding Windows. They don't support Stardock's Start8 nor do they support Firefox or Chrome.

Microsoft does support the hooks they allow the developers to tie into, including utilizing all of the Win32 APIs and registry keys to make a custom shell.

The problem with the RT variants is they don't allow users the flexibility that Windows has always allowed. Microsoft is attempting to close the system and Windows 8 really is just the start of this process.

I'm not sure why I'm discussing this though as you either don't understand or you don't care and would rather just tow the company line.

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