152 posts in this topic

Posted

[size=3]Following the article/story at [url="http://www.neowin.net/news/did-microsoft-execs-overrule-windows-team-to-put-start-menu-back-in-windows-81"]http://www.neowin.ne...k-in-windows-81[/url].[/size]
[size=3]The problem I see is that it would be difficult to figure out how to implement both hot corners and the traditional Start button in a vertical taskbar setup.[/size]
[size=3]If the taskbar is anywhere but at the bottom of the screen, then either the Start button stays in the bottom left corner and floats in a very strange manner, or the Start screen hotspot ends up shifting to follow the taskbar. That would wreak havoc upon the rest of the Windows 8 UI and make it problematic to consider the other corner hotspots that activate Charms, App switching, etc.[/size]

[size=3]I made a crude Paint rendition of this because I don't have the time for a more detailed work. I hope it's not too big.[/size]
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Posted

You realize the new start button wont be the same at previous versions of Windows, its not going to have a full blow menu, it's just going to be a short cut to the start screen.

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Posted

[quote name='Crisp' timestamp='1366469404' post='595649362']
You realize the new start button wont be the same at previous versions of Windows, its not going to have a full blow menu, it's just going to be a short cut to the start screen.
[/quote]

The point is that the button has to be in some corner. The user needs to click on it. There are other things that use the corners of the screen. This isn't the previous Windows UI where all 4 corners were fair game.
What does your comment have to do with what I'm talking about?
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Posted

I see it being problematic when users click into Metro apps. They're back to using the Start "Tip", so why break the UX by moving back a button, most won't see anyways? What happens when I dock a Metro app to the left of the screen? Does the new button shimmy its way over, or will it get stuck on the taskbar? There's more to the OS than the desktop, they should be working to unify the different UXs, adding back the visible button to the taskbar will only break it.

[attachment=331912:Screenshot (5820).png]

It's a bad plan all over. Users already have three start buttons, how many more do they need?

Here's a tip for the loonies on Microsoft's board, let the Windows team do it's job, it's clear they more of a vision than you do.
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Posted

Users need a physical button. When talking on the phone with users I've asked them to press the windows key. Most always ask me "where is it?"

I have to tell them its in the bottom left of their keyboard. They then reference the screen and I have to tell then again ... "No not the screen, the ACTUAL keyboard".

The current start button is hidden, you shouldn't hide things from the users. I've been saying this the moment they hid the button and I still believe this.

The Microsoft Execs needed to step in because the development team doesn't seem to understand this.

They aren't giving us the entire start menu, just a physical button in the bottom left so users aren't completely lost due to hidden ui elements.

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1366469842' post='595649370']
I see it being problematic when users click into Metro apps.
[/quote]

It's going to be a problem for metro apps because once the user gets their physical start button back it's going to spoil them. Then when they access a metro app they finally realize how stupid it is on a desktop to hide all the menu's.
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Posted

Clicking the corners doesn't activate the charms bar. Putting your cursor there only displays the transparent overlay. I don't see a problem.
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Posted

I feel that the number of users on non-touchscreen devices who would benefit from having an always-visible click target start button far outnumber those who actually active the app switcher and charms bar with mouse gestures.

The edge gestures make perfect sense on a touchscreen device, but when using a mouse users have been trained for 20 years to look for targets and move the cursor to those visible targets.

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Posted

[quote name='warwagon' timestamp='1366469855' post='595649372']
It's going to be a problem for metro apps because once the user gets their physical start button back it's going to spoil them. Then when they access a metro app they will be asking "Why is Microsoft hiding everything from me".
[/quote]

Users interact with hidden menus all the time. Mobile phones and tablets are full or them. They're perfect since they keep users screens void of junk.

Unless of course, your idea of a perfect UX is one flooded with all the controls (Yes, I know these are toolbars, but it still drives my point across):
[img]http://www.dowling.edu/mydowling/tech/images/bb-TooManyToolbars.jpg[/img]
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Posted

[quote name='Stetson' timestamp='1366470212' post='595649378']
I feel that the number of users on non-touchscreen devices who would benefit from having an always-visible click target start button far outnumber those who actually active the app switcher and charms bar with mouse gestures.

The edge gestures make perfect sense on a touchscreen device, but when using a mouse users have been trained for 20 years to look for targets and move the cursor to those visible targets.
[/quote]
I think this was pretty spot on. I also would like to add a little to it. While I feel the younger generations of users "could" adapt relatively well to the Start Menu and no Start Button. There are PLENTY of older generational users that had a hard enough time and still do, working with the computer as a whole. They barely get a grasp of the Start Button and how all that works and they get the Start Menu thrown at them. It doesn't help anyone at all. Then theres the whole idea of some things only being done in the Modern UI and some things only being done in the desktop environment. Its annoying and not fluid. Honestly, I see Win8 as some half-assed/50% mark attempt to what Microsoft's vision of it was. Personally, until Microsoft can come up with a better way of integrating Windows Phone and Windows or creating a better seamless experience between Windows devices in general, they should've left the Modern UI for tablets and kept and improved the desktop environment for regular computers.

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1366470648' post='595649386']
Users interact with hidden menus all the time. Mobile phones and tablets are full or them. They're perfect since they keep users screens void of junk.

Unless of course, this is your idea of a perfect UX:
[img]http://www.dowling.edu/mydowling/tech/images/bb-TooManyToolbars.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
WOW...does that browser actually still work?? LOL That's a lot of tool bars. ;P

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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1366470648' post='595649386']
Users interact with hidden menus all the time. Mobile phones and tablets are full or them. They're perfect since they keep users screens void of junk.

Unless of course, this is your idea of a perfect UX:

[/quote]

Once again [size=5][b]THIS[/b][/size] is the issue. We say Desktop you say Mobile devices and tablets.
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Posted

Wow really? You are comparing a simple button addition to the desktop UI that is the EXACT SAME as it has been since Windows 95, to a IE window that has a dozen toolbars? Really?

Unless you have done phone support for Windows 8, you do not know how truly hard it is to have people activate hidden menus.
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Posted

Remove the hot corner from the location where the current Start menu is, and then put that menu somewhere people might actually discover it without having to go through a tutorial. The Start menu/Page is a huge part of Windows and needs a simple button, I hate trying to move my mouse into the corner to activate it (have RSI so use a stupid mouse which doesn't allow me a scroll wheel either).

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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1366470648' post='595649386']
Users interact with hidden menus all the time. Mobile phones and tablets are full or them. They're perfect since they keep users screens void of junk.

Unless of course, your idea of a perfect UX is one flooded with all the controls (Yes, I know these are toolbars, but it still drives my point across):
[img]http://www.dowling.edu/mydowling/tech/images/bb-TooManyToolbars.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
You're really trying to equate a Start button with that mess? Nice job.

And your example doesn't work, people are used to interacting with those "hidden menus" in two situations: 1. They're properly introduced to them (which Windows 8 does a poor job with) and 2. they're using a touch interface. People are not used to interacting with hidden elements using a mouse.

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Posted

[quote name='xWhiplash' timestamp='1366471057' post='595649404']
Unless you have done phone support for Windows 8, you do not know how truly hard it is to have people activate hidden menus.
[/quote]

In your experience when doing "Phone support" how many of those users immediately know were the Windows key is when you tell them to push it?

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Posted

This is not ping to improve anything but just wastes space on the task bar. I have seen it in consumer preview, it's no better than what we have now.
[quote name='Orange Battery' timestamp='1366471096' post='595649406']
Remove the hot corner from the location where the current Start menu is, and then put that menu somewhere people might actually discover it without having to go through a tutorial. The Start menu/Page is a huge part of Windows and needs a simple button, I hate trying to move my mouse into the corner to activate it (have RSI so use a stupid mouse which doesn't allow me a scroll wheel either).
[/quote]
Huh? If they restore start button, you will still need to move your mouse into the LL corner to click it :huh:

[quote name='warwagon' timestamp='1366471272' post='595649416']


In your experience when doing "Phone support" how many of those users immediately know were the Windows key is when you tell them to push it?
[/quote]
How many people understand lower left corner?

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Posted

[quote name='BajiRav' timestamp='1366471552' post='595649420']
This is not ping to improve anything but just wastes space on the task bar. I have seen it in consumer preview, it's no better than what we have now.

Huh? If they restore start button, you will still need to move your mouse into the LL corner to click it :huh:


How many people understand lower left corner?
[/quote]

But we won't have to unhide it first. As he said this will be a benefit for phone support.

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Posted

[quote name='warwagon' timestamp='1366471040' post='595649398']
Once again [size=5][b]THIS[/b][/size] is the issue. We say Desktop you say Mobile devices and tablets.
[/quote]

Yeah WarWagon, why would you want that...

[img]http://www.dowling.edu/mydowling/tech/images/bb-TooManyToolbars.jpg[/img]

When your desktop could have this...

[img]http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/7369/iexplorederp.png[/img]

/s

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Posted

[quote name='warwagon' timestamp='1366471654' post='595649424']


But we won't have to unhide it first. As he said this will be a benefit for phone support.
[/quote]
Put you cursor/mouse in LL corner and click is what I would say even in prior versions of Windows.

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Posted

the return of the Start button is problematic for Microsoft because they would have to admit that they were wrong, which would cause the little loss of their corporation image; personally i would add Start menu as option in Windows features if it's really, really impossible to include option screen durning install (or OOBE) for choosing between UI depending on the type of device.

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Posted

[quote name='BajiRav' timestamp='1366471824' post='595649430']
Put you cursor/mouse in LL corner and click is what I would say even in prior versions of Windows.
[/quote]

Except they made it 1 pixel. So users that move their mouse JUST a little end up opening up Internet Explorer instead.

[quote name='insanelyapple' timestamp='1366471861' post='595649436']
the return of the Start button is problematic for Microsoft because they would have to admit that they were wrong.
[/quote]

it's also called manning up.
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Posted

[quote name='virtorio' timestamp='1366471260' post='595649414']
People are not used to interacting with hidden elements using a mouse.
[/quote]

Sure they are, the right click menus on the desktop and other desktop apps have been in Windows and other desktop OSs for years. You're telling me that doesn't count?
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Posted

[quote name='BajiRav' timestamp='1366471824' post='595649430']

Put you cursor/mouse in LL corner and click is what I would say even in prior versions of Windows.
[/quote]

But without a visual cue, users can be just a few pixels out from the hot corner box and have nothing happen.

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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1366471981' post='595649442']
Sure they are, the right click menus on the desktop and other desktop apps have been in Windows and other desktop OSs for years. You're telling me that doesn't count?
[/quote]

If a user wants "More options" they right click. But things like "All apps and the start button" I don't consider more options. I think that is a primary UI element that people expect unhidden and front and center to click on.
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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1366470648' post='595649386']
[img]http://www.dowling.edu/mydowling/tech/images/bb-TooManyToolbars.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

[img]http://www.dowling.edu/mydowling/tech/images/bb-TooManyToolbars.jpg[/img]
[img]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7198/6952934817_7f70ffbbbc_z.jpg[/img]
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Posted

[quote name='Dot Matrix' timestamp='1366471981' post='595649442']
Sure they are, the right click menus on the desktop and other desktop apps have been in Windows and other desktop OSs for years. You're telling me that doesn't count?
[/quote]You right click an object (YOU CAN SEE) to display contextual options. And there are plenty of novice users who have no idea what a context menu is for.

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