152 posts in this topic

The average reaction to anything "Modern" related (start screen and default apps), from everyone I've seen using Windows 8 from the first time, was "what the **** is that?", quickly followed by "how do I get out of there? what do I click on?" Somehow I have hard time believing that this went through usability testing.

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yep. I do not buy some remarks that it was to reduce "bloat" and/or complexity. Think it was mostly to steer people towards the Microsoft Store to reap the benefits of application sales like Apple and Google do with their iOS and Android.

That's exactly why they've done it, notice how you cant sideload applications "legally", all Modern apps have to be installed by the Microsoft store which is full of garbage apps its a pain to try and find decent apps.

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The most trivial issues become serious annoyances when you encounter them virtually anytime you interact with a PC.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill to try and prove an irrelevant point. I struggle to believe that this is a serious issue for anyone and you can just use ALT+F4 to close Windows if you struggle so much with your mouse.

The Windows Sidebar was poorly designed and removed in subsequent editions of Windows. Autohide on the taskbar is an advanced, off by default setting that sees little use, in good part because it can be really annoying. Your examples only support my point.

Your point was that that users don't expect mouse movements to trigger events. The examples that I provided demonstrate that this is not new functionality and certainly not something that should surprise even the most novice user of a computer.

The average reaction to anything "Modern" related (start screen and default apps), from everyone I've seen using Windows 8 from the first time, was "what the **** is that?", quickly followed by "how do I get out of there? what do I click on?" Somehow I have hard time believing that this went through usability testing.

I'm sure your anecdotal "evidence" trumps any usability testing that Microsoft might have done.

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You're making a mountain out of a molehill to try and prove an irrelevant point. I struggle to believe that this is a serious issue for anyone and you can just use ALT+F4 to close Windows if you struggle so much with your mouse.

The topic is whether a start button in other corners than bottom-left will conflict with hot corners. I'm talking about how existing buttons already conflict with hot corners. How's that irrelevant to the topic?
Your point was that that users don't expect mouse movements to trigger events. The examples that I provided demonstrate that this is not new functionality and certainly not something that should surprise even the most novice user of a computer.
No, they do not, because one was a short-lived poorly designed idea, and the other is an off by default advanced option that sees little use, as I said.
I'm sure your anecdotal "evidence" trumps any usability testing that Microsoft might have done.
Are you angry or do you actually have a point?

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The topic is whether a start button in other corners than bottom-left will conflict with hot corners. I'm talking about how existing buttons already conflict with hot corners. How's that irrelevant to the topic?

Your original point was that the top-right hot corner can lead to the accidental closure of applications. I pointed out that that wasn't the case and you then tried to make out that the Charms bar is a major annoyance that constantly gets in the way. I disagree and think you're just going out of your way to try and find problems where none exist.

No, they do not, because one was a short-lived poorly designed idea, and the other is an off by default advanced option that sees little use, as I said.

You're deliberately ignoring your original point and my point. Fair enough, your original point was silly anyway.

Are you angry or do you actually have a point?

No, I'm not angry at all. I'm just pointing out that your anecdotes are meaningless and irrelevant and you might as well have saved yourself the time you wasted typing them out.

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Your original point was that the top-right hot corner can lead to the accidental closure of applications.

No that was not my original point...
You're deliberately ignoring your original point and my point. Fair enough, your original point was silly anyway.
Oh it's silly now. Guess I can't refute that one.
No, I'm not angry at all. I'm just pointing out that your anecdotes are meaningless and irrelevant and you might as well have saved yourself the time you wasted typing them out.
How was it meaningless and irrelevant?

In 5 posts now you haven't made a true or well-reasoned statement, this is getting nowhere.

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Christ, the last few posts are full of it. No offense to anyone, but you're all focusing on the negatives.

First of all, you do IT. The people requesting your help need help, that doesn't mean everyone does. You're never going to have someone who *doesn't* need help ask you how to do something or complain about things. People seeking help aren't an indicator of anything. If it was, then every tech product made would be considered a "failure", since I have people everyday ask me about Windows, iPads, iOS, Android, etc.

Second, The Windows Store is beneficial to every single PC user out there. And, yes, the quality apps are easy to locate, Microsoft highlights those monthly.

Third, Metro does not inhibit anything. Christ, just go watch the 9374 walk through video posted to the news section yesterday, and look and see how easily the person on it is able to navigate it with a keyboard, mouse, and no Start Button. If he can do it, than everyone posting here can certainly do it. You survived without a Start Button before, you can survive without a visible one now.

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It's so crazy to think that microsoft could've avoided all this crap just by creating a separate/new mobile OS. Instead of trying to force all their users to use a mobile os on a desktop.

They'd have to get rid of it eventually, yes you still had the option to revert back to the Programn Manager instead of the Start Menu in Windows 95, but eventually the programn manager disappeared.

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Thread Cleaned

Please keep this discussion civil.

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Thread Cleaned

Wow, I came to see what had been written (surprisingly not much usefulness), and I can't say it looks like it'd been cleaned up... *shudders*

Is there a way to just lock this thread, Marshall?

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>>People seeking help aren't an indicator of anything.<<

So..... analyzing help desk calls to eliminate recurring issues is a wasteful standard operating procedure? People seeking help is "always" and indicator of something.

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But without a visual cue, users can be just a few pixels out from the hot corner box and have nothing happen.

The left-side context bar appearing isn't enough of a visual cue?

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>>People seeking help aren't an indicator of anything.<<

So..... analyzing help desk calls to eliminate recurring issues is a wasteful standard operating procedure? People seeking help is "always" and indicator of something.

If you keep focusing on the negatives - ie, the people always asking for help, then all you're going to see are the people asking for help or complaining, and then everything you deploy is going to be a "failure", because those same people will keep coming back. A certain set of people isn't indicative of the whole market.

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If you keep focusing on the negatives - ie, the people always asking for help, then all you're going to see are the people asking for help or complaining, and then everything you deploy is going to be a "failure", because those same people will keep coming back. A certain set of people isn't indicative of the whole market.

You need to take that very broad overarching theory, and apply it to specific cases of reality. Be warned, reality is far from the ideal which is generally the basis for all theoretical conclusions. When dealing with money and profits, you have no choice but to deal with the negatives, if you do not, you won't be in business long.

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post-61856-0-53156500-1366586481.pngI am just going to leave this here..
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Just curious, but does anyone here really believe that just putting a Start Button in the corner, without restoring some kind of Menu to go along with it, will satisfy those users who are hoping for the real deal? Those users are turning to 3rd party applications that mimic the Start Menu, not just the Start Button. If Microsoft is only talking about a Start Button that does nothing more than skip to the desktop, then Microsoft still does not understand where they are falling short. Without adding to the arguments for and against, I'm only saying that if Microsoft is going to bring back the Start Button (Menu), then do it right and don't make a half-hearted attempt to placate those who find Metro, or Modern or whatever, so disappointing. It won't change anything.

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Just curious, but does anyone here really believe that just putting a Start Button in the corner, without restoring some kind of Menu to go along with it, will satisfy those users who are hoping for the real deal? Those users are turning to 3rd party applications that mimic the Start Menu, not just the Start Button. If Microsoft is only talking about a Start Button that does nothing more than skip to the desktop, then Microsoft still does not understand where they are falling short. Without adding to the arguments for and against, I'm only saying that if Microsoft is going to bring back the Start Button (Menu), then do it right and don't make a half-hearted attempt to placate those who find Metro, or Modern or whatever, so disappointing. It won't change anything.

I agree with you that people will continue to seek third party solutions.. But the fact of the matter, is this not even beta. They could remove the start screen and replace it with the Windows 95 Start Menu. Most likely not.. but we have no idea what they are doing.

In the end, if businesses don't like the future of Windows, they will migrate from it. It is evolution, and change is always guaranteed. They won't leave overnight, but OSX and Linux are looking better to some. It will be an interesting next 5 years.

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Just curious, but does anyone here really believe that just putting a Start Button in the corner, without restoring some kind of Menu to go along with it, will satisfy those users who are hoping for the real deal?

It will placate them. It really is easier to target. It just is, MS didn't put it there in the first place arbitrarily for all these years you know. It will also provide familiarity to many consumers who may be turning away because there is nothing familiar? It is also an olive branch of sorts. Will it replace the functionality of the Start Menu, no. But combined with improved Modern UI search, it may be just enough compromise.

If the search is streamlined, I can see myself letting Start 8 go and using the Start Button and Start Page.

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Just curious, but does anyone here really believe that just putting a Start Button in the corner, without restoring some kind of Menu to go along with it, will satisfy those users who are hoping for the real deal? Those users are turning to 3rd party applications that mimic the Start Menu, not just the Start Button. If Microsoft is only talking about a Start Button that does nothing more than skip to the desktop, then Microsoft still does not understand where they are falling short. Without adding to the arguments for and against, I'm only saying that if Microsoft is going to bring back the Start Button (Menu), then do it right and don't make a half-hearted attempt to placate those who find Metro, or Modern or whatever, so disappointing. It won't change anything.

I agree with you. If the Start button only leads me to Metro it is still useless to me. I prefer having a Start menu.

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Bottom line is. It should have been an option.

By the time most people found how to change it back, they would have already given up caring.

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I agree with you. If the Start button only leads me to Metro it is still useless to me. I prefer having a Start menu.

Its obvious its going to open the startscreen. Who the hell can not see this? I figure people would stop complaining about the stupid start menu.. Its been dead for how many months now??

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I really hope they don't bring back that button. it's totally superflous at this point

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I still can't believe some people at Microsoft believe hidden and for tablet specific usage controls is a good UI method.

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Its a good move from Microsoft. Along with the new search features I think this will solve a lot of peoples issues. Lol at the people saying they wanted a start menu. Why not just make a shortcut? Do you actually not have any shortcuts that you need to use a start menu for everything you do? Surely that is inefficient in itself?

I still can't believe some people at Microsoft believe hidden and for tablet specific usage controls is a good UI method.

This doesn't appear to make sense. Please clarify.

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Its a good move from Microsoft. Along with the new search features I think this will solve a lot of peoples issues. Lol at the people saying they wanted a start menu. Why not just make a shortcut? Do you actually not have any shortcuts that you need to use a start menu for everything you do? Surely that is inefficient in itself?

This doesn't appear to make sense. Please clarify.

it does appear to make sense, have a read again to see what he said. I'd have to agree with Neo here, removing elements which otherwise UX wise would have made it more intuitive is a mega negative for me too.

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