93 posts in this topic

If she is the boss and this your job then do it. If you are doing it as a secondary thing then I would not. Just have them hire someone else.

People up top think of crazy **** in their heads. Stuff that does not make any sense for websites. As a professional you just have to show them that it is not the best way or "best business practices" to do that and not make them feel stupid.

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Agreed. Also my last job doing contract web development with a web design company their philosophy was this: the client is always right.

So if the client ask you for scrolling text, blinking text and an animated gif of a mouse you will make it ?

Personally i'll drop the client right away if he doesn't want to understand you can't do that.

The client is not always right. Far from it.

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nm...you can't see the similarities in a simplistic nature.

design is design, you start with framework regardless if it is with code or with sticks. Next you will tell me it doesn't start with code, it starts with an application....if you go that route you are completely and utterly lost.

I am lost. Your rambling makes no sense whatsoever.

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So if the client ask you for scrolling text, blinking text and an animated gif of a mouse you will make it ?

If they pay, then yes!

Personally i'll drop the client right away if he doesn't want to understand you can't do that.

You CAN do that!

The client is not always right. Far from it.

He who pays the piper calls the tune

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Forget this reply i misread the post i quoted

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Just about performance, the site is a little bloated due to the number and size of assets. Some random things I noticed, in no order...

  • One of the images is 1.1MB :s and you have 58 assets. Many of these could be made into sprites, and then could be made into Data URIs.
  • Are you gZipping on your server?
  • You also have four :no: font faces extra at ~20KB each. Is this really needed? Could you get these merged or reduced?
  • In the HEAD, move your title tag higher up above the other meta tags.
  • You don't seem to have a primary H1 tag, but you do have a logo, could you replace your logo with a H1+ background?
  • You've used some <section> tags, but that's all for HTML5, could you make better use of some other semantic HTML5 tags?
  • You have many style sheets, could you merge these? Same goes for scripts.

Nice design though. :yes:

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So if the client ask you for scrolling text, blinking text and an animated gif of a mouse you will make it ?

Personally i'll drop the client right away if he doesn't want to understand you can't do that.

The client is not always right. Far from it.

Exactly this. You're hired as the expert, so do what experts do and do your job.

An experts job is not to sit there and do what ever they are told blindly.

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If they pay, then yes!

You've summed up exactly why it would be a bad choice to hire you in 5 words. Good job.

Basically you've advocated breaking defined web standards and said you'd be happy to produce and release shoddy products that would actually harm your employer/customer because you are only interested in the pay cheque.

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You've summed up exactly why it would be a bad choice to hire you in 5 words. Good job.

Basically you've advocated breaking defined web standards and said you'd be happy to produce and release shoddy products that would actually harm your employer/customer because you are only interested in the pay cheque.

You can and should make suggestions to try and convince them of the right way but in the end I think it's the client/customer's choice. If they really want something a certain way and are willing to pay for it then give them what they want. I don't like it either but that's the way it goes with providing good customer service. In business it's always about pleasing the customer and then doing the best you can within your limits.

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Don't forget that fact that your past work will help you get future work. If a customer is insisting on something that is embarrassing and purely bad, I wouldn't do it either since it could hurt my reputation.

In the end, there's always a way to reason with them. They did hire you for your expertise, after all. If they don't budge, go to their boss.

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go to their boss.

Yup, straight to those that care the most. They may have hired this person thinking it was for the best but that's also why they hired you. The jobs are colliding and you're wrongly being told what to do by someone that is quite obviously just trying to make themselves look busy.

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Yup, straight to those that care the most. They may have hired this person thinking it was for the best but that's also why they hired you. The jobs are colliding and you're wrongly being told what to do by someone that is quite obviously just trying to make themselves look busy.

It doesn't work this way when you are in the low 20 and just starting though.

I'm 36 and i've been doing this for 10 years and i have a good portfolio of past jobs. I'm not the best in class very far from it but i have a reputation of someone who knows the industry standards and what he is doing. When i talk people listen. But when i was a freshly graduated 20 something man (back then i was looking like a teen) people did not listen to me as much. Some 40+ pople don't like to be told what to do by a 20-25 young adult even if they hired him/her as a professional. This is what i call "parvenu" (french word) men and women. Because they have a good salary, an house, an audi a4 and kids they think they worth more than a starting young man or woman and should in no way ever be told what to do by people who have yet to achieve their social status. Those people are a pain to work with when you are stating (they are also a pain to handle with on road or in a line at the store).

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It doesn't work this way when you are in the low 20 and just starting though.

I'm 36 and i've been doing this for 10 years and i have a good portfolio of past jobs. I'm not the best in class very far from it but i have a reputation of someone who knows the industry standards and what he is doing. When i talk people listen. But when i was a freshly graduated 20 something man (back then i was looking like a teen) people did not listen to me as much. Some 40+ pople don't like to be told what to do by a 20-25 young adult even if they hired him/her as a professional. This is what i call "parvenu" (french word) men and women. Because they have a good salary, an house, an audi a4 and kids they think they worth more than a starting young man or woman and should in no way ever be told what to do by people who have yet to achieve their social status. Those people are a pain to work with when you are stating.

Of course but i'm talking about those that are hired on the basis that they are the expert. If you're working full time for a company as the lacky and not the hired professional, then that's a different story.

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Well, I fired two developers today for similar reasons. They kept thinking it was their job to design the product (disrespectfully), instead of concentrating on implementation/quality/skill improvement nor even make a good argument as to why they are so opposed to a rewrite. As usual, it rarely has anything to do with 'good design' or technology choices, but simply ego. (Akin to calling their baby 'ugly' I guess)

...wrongly being told what to do by someone that is quite obviously just trying to make themselves look busy."

That is exactly what I'm talking about. Far too many devs think the person in charge of the overall project is just there to be meddlesome or create work for themselves. There should always be a gatekeeper/architect between end users and development staff.

Aside from the logo/header debate, I've seen nothing from the OP to indicate the person in question is clearly unqualified in that role.

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You've summed up exactly why it would be a bad choice to hire you in 5 words. Good job.

Basically you've advocated breaking defined web standards and said you'd be happy to produce and release shoddy products that would actually harm your employer/customer because you are only interested in the pay cheque.

All you can do is advise them, you aren't creating the site for yourself you are creating the site for them. If they want a design that looks like it is a reject from the 90s then you advise them why its wrong, if they still want it then you do it for them, if you don't someone else will, why should you throw away the money?

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Someone with 8 years experience > some random noob

... but. That noob could have some good insites and ideas. However, this is your project. You have been working on it for almost a year. No need for them to tell you to ditch everything you have worked on for the past year just so she can have her way.

edit: :| lots of comments didnt read the others just OP's post

edit2: Just saw your site. Looks pretty good. But one thing. Why not use wordpress (for your main site)?

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Well, I fired two developers today for similar reasons. They kept thinking it was their job to design the product (disrespectfully), instead of concentrating on implementation/quality/skill improvement nor even make a good argument as to why they are so opposed to a rewrite. As usual, it rarely has anything to do with 'good design' or technology choices, but simply ego. (Akin to calling their baby 'ugly' I guess)

That is exactly what I'm talking about. Far too many devs think the person in charge of the overall project is just there to be meddlesome or create work for themselves. There should always be a gatekeeper/architect between end users and development staff.

Don't get me wrong. A decent project manager is a god send. But i'm not talking about decent project managers, i'm discussing those that put their or in where it's not needed, the type that tell you to change to ~Comic Sans, the type that thinks flashing GIF's of cats are an amazing idea!

Aside from the logo/header debate, I've seen nothing from the OP to indicate the person in question is clearly unqualified in that role.

Not really talking about the OP any more really but more the state of the industry. To be honest with you is, and i'm not sure, the original post was that the client wanted their logo back as it is originally, then i'd say the clients right on this one.

Of course it's all just common sense and differs on a job by job basis.

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I don't disagree, I think we can all relate to the wife of the CEO or other 'dual hat' types that have no business being in that role to begin with (the typical HR/Accounting/Legal positions that 'dabble' in IT).

On the flipside, there are also a fair amount of older developers who don't understand that aesthetics and presentation is just as important as functionality. Who spend more time declaring how users are dumb and need more training than simply building a smarter system.

The odd trend I also see is that devs are more than happy to promise the world to the end user (cat gifs and all), but suddenly become upset when you add a project manager they must report to.

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I don't disagree, I think we can all relate to the wife of the CEO or other 'dual hat' types that have no business being in that role to begin with (the typical HR/Accounting/Legal positions that 'dabble' in IT).

On the flipside, there are also a fair amount of older developers who don't understand that aesthetics and presentation is just as important as functionality.

I've just started a big build on one that i know is going to end up exactly like that, fortunately i've added the 'PITA' tax to make it worthwhile.

Big site for a big company (can't name name's due to NDA) with hundreds of products but the CEO's wife want a blog FOR HER built in to it. :rolleyes:

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Ugh. One of the running jokes we had when I did consulting was who do you have to **** to get an IT job around here. So many husbands creating busy work to give their wives something to do. As you say, that's where the PITA tax rightly comes in. (and any good PM should understand that)

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if you don't someone else will, why should you throw away the money?

I have principles.

I also don't believe the web is best served by creating junk to appease business people.

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if the client wants something and you, as a professional, don't agree upon that, it's either with you to advise the client to not implement those features; still if the client, while making a conscious decision and against the advised, wants those features implemented, either you stick with your principles and terminate that contract or you get the cash and implement those features anyway; you are not obligated to update your client portfolio with that job and still get some cash, while making the costumer happy.

I have principles.

I also don't believe the web is best served by creating junk to appease business people.

And so it's better for the web to create something that doesn't appease the end client? Sorry, doesn't work that way; as a paying costumer i expect that when i hire a service for making / restyling my website i can have some creative control; so if I'm obtuse and don't follow the advices that designer / developer / team said, they can quit the project because of creative differences, but if they stay we must find a balance in the project and it's not a easy task, but in the end I'm happy with the final product that i payed or I'm not.

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when i hire a service for making / restyling my website i can have some creative control; so if I'm obtuse and don't follow the advices that designer / developer / team said, they can quit the project because of creative differences, but if they stay we must find a balance in the project and it's not a easy task, but in the end I'm happy with the final product that i payed or I'm not.

Assuming you own/run your own business, it would be interesting to see how you'd react if the designer started telling you how to do your job.

Point is if you're not a web designer you have very limited scope to offer any "advice". You don't hire an engineer for "advice" on building a bridge - He or she knows how to build the bridge right so they should just be allowed to do it. You don't ask your Doctor for "advice" and then do your own thing. You trust the years of training and expect that, usually, they'll know better than you.

A quality designer will elicit feedback and opinion. They should, where possible, offer alternative approaches to nearly all their ideas with reasoning and explanation. Quality clients wanting a website will learn to do the same. Often this will conflict with what you might want but this is what to look for when hiring. Understand that they will know more about web design than you do.

Business owners often misinterpret "feedback" and "opinion" with "this is where I tell you what I want changed - do it". The problem what that is the web designer is the one who understands and creates a website that covers not just "looking nice" but ease of use, navigation, accessibility or usefulness on a variety of devices. They'll be versed in colour theory, typographic style and know about website performance. The better ones will even know about copy writing, search engine optimization and literally a hundred other areas. There's a fair chance they studied to college or university level learning their trade or have worked for many years in the field to get the knowledge they possess.

By meddling excessively or wielding the "my way or the highway hammer" or as you put it "creative differences", the business owner ends up harming their bottom line. Sure they'll have a nice feeling that the website has their stamp on it...but wasn't the whole point of the website to increase visitors and or business? Dilution of purpose and straying from the point. Design by committee. People making decisions about topics where they have little or no familiarity...A recipe for ineffective websites.

We've already seen in this thread some people who aren't interested in the craft. They're interested in "appeasement" and in the money. In other words what they actually produce is a secondary consideration.

It's up to the business owner to decide what sort of client they will be and which version of the designer/developer will do the better job.

Hire the guy who promises to make you a website for $1000 and makes every silly change you request as if they were a docile puppy waiting for a treat or hire a professional, pay the top money and get results.

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Assuming you own/run your own business, it would be interesting to see how you'd react if the designer started telling you how to do your job.

Point is if you're not a web designer you have very limited scope to offer any "advice". You don't hire an engineer for "advice" on building a bridge - He or she knows how to build the bridge right so they should just be allowed to do it. You don't ask your Doctor for "advice" and then do your own thing. You trust the years of training and expect that, usually, they'll know better than you.

A quality designer will elicit feedback and opinion. They should, where possible, offer alternative approaches to nearly all their ideas with reasoning and explanation. Quality clients wanting a website will learn to do the same. Often this will conflict with what you might want but this is what to look for when hiring. Understand that they will know more about web design than you do.

Business owners often misinterpret "feedback" and "opinion" with "this is where I tell you what I want changed - do it". The problem what that is the web designer is the one who understands and creates a website that covers not just "looking nice" but ease of use, navigation, accessibility or usefulness on a variety of devices. They'll be versed in colour theory, typographic style and know about website performance. The better ones will even know about copy writing, search engine optimization and literally a hundred other areas. There's a fair chance they studied to college or university level learning their trade or have worked for many years in the field to get the knowledge they possess.

By meddling excessively or wielding the "my way or the highway hammer" or as you put it "creative differences", the business owner ends up harming their bottom line. Sure they'll have a nice feeling that the website has their stamp on it...but wasn't the whole point of the website to increase visitors and or business? Dilution of purpose and straying from the point. Design by committee. People making decisions about topics where they have little or no familiarity...A recipe for ineffective websites.

We've already seen in this thread some people who aren't interested in the craft. They're interested in "appeasement" and in the money. In other words what they actually produce is a secondary consideration.

It's up to the business owner to decide what sort of client they will be and which version of the designer/developer will do the better job.

Hire the guy who promises to make you a website for $1000 and makes every silly change you request as if they were a docile puppy waiting for a treat or hire a professional, pay the top money and get results.

i agree with most of what you write in there, althougt you ignored the first part of my post, where i said:

if the client wants something and you, as a professional, don't agree upon that, it's either with you to advise the client to not implement those features; still if the client, while making a conscious decision and against the advised, wants those features implemented, either you stick with your principles and terminate that contract or you get the cash and implement those features anyway; you are not obligated to update your client portfolio with that job and still get some cash, while making the costumer happy.

again, as a professional, it's my job to best advice my client in my work field; if my client is stubborn (for whatever reason) and doesn't what to follow my advices, either way i fire my client or i stick with him.

you can't compare the field of graphic design/programming with engineering or medicine; still even in those fields if said professional from said areas give you wrong advises or you see them doing something wrong you can still argue them. The biggest problem with design is that everyone thinks that they are (good) designers.

By meddling excessively or wielding the "my way or the highway hammer" or as you put it "creative differences", the business owner ends up harming their bottom line. Sure they'll have a nice feeling that the website has their stamp on it...but wasn't the whole point of the website to increase visitors and or business? Dilution of purpose and straying from the point. Design by committee. People making decisions about topics where they have little or no familiarity...A recipe for ineffective websites.

unfortunately that happens allot, not only in design; i often deal with poorly coded / designed or even worse, hacked site because there was no maintenance from who ever did that piece of crap; the client didn't pay for it or the designer didn't had the know how for implement it and in the end someone defaced the site.

It's not just a bad business decision, or a lazy designer / coder who wanted a fast check; many times it's the unbalance between the client and the designer that produces a bad product (website).

So in the end, balance is key: quality clients would trust their design partners (and that is the key word, partner, not puppy) and quality designers would advice, implement and give the client the end solution they need and want - that's a very thought deal and not all of the clients / designers would follow this.

to end...

image.png

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