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#31 MikeChipshop

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 21:05

It also depends what area you were hired for. If the brief was to knock something out as they pleased, and i've done my fair share of this rubbish, then that's fair enough but if you're hired to start fresh then they have hired you for your expertise and if they choose to ignore that then that's their 'expensive' problem.

Forgot to say though, lovely design. Top notch.


#32 MikeChipshop

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 21:10

First she thinks a major change can be done in an hour.


Ha that .does make my blood boil and it happens all to often.

That and the famous line "I've no idea how this is done but it'll be easy for you and shouldn't take you more than an hour" they then proceed to list a weeks worth of changes and then are shocked when you quote them for the weeks work haha

#33 sc302

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 22:14

Although in regards to the 'rest room' example above. If you hired a professional architect to remodel your building, they wouldn't do this, as neither would a professional designer.

Don't be so sure
Posted Image

Posted Image

#34 Praetor

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:58

^^^wtf that's horrible; who wants to see if someone is taking a dump or not?

nice site, i liked but there's some design issues with it (Firefox 20.0.1 here).
About the client issue: do you have a working contract? Or some documentation (like emails) detailing all the tasks that need to be done, schedules and costs? Design (and it's web variant) in a professional way is no way different from other professions; you and the client agree to a stipulation and terms and work on from that. The client wants to make changes? Sure, if that's part of the agreement. The client wants to change the whole concept / make radically commits half way through the project (or worse, in the end) with no viable excuse? It's the same as building a house and in the middle / end of the project the client changes so much the original project that it will require to destroy what's build so far to start a new one. Technically that's possible but it's viable? The client can support the costs? Is it aware that it will cost allot more?

So... like i asked: do you have a document clarifying the project? If yes then use it as your defense, but be open to some (and if possible) changes; if no then it started bad to begin with and the solution can be pricey for you (more work hours in the same project without any new gains), your client (a never ending project) or both (going to burn the work relation).

I've had a few share clients like this one and the Oatmeal explained very well how it could go to hell very quickly if there's no tight control to the project; unfortunately in this day everybody thinks that they know how to design and code, even with no formal background, making their ignorant opinions a fact and having low respect for those that actually know their stuff. The best way to deal with clients like this is to detail the project by written: how much it will cost for every phase of the project, how much time every phase will take, the amount of changes that every phase can support and so on. So if the client starts deviating from the project and asks ridiculous changes (that deviates from the project) you can show him the project he agreed on, explaining to him that big changes costs big bucks: that would put you and the client on good terms, not in a position that one has more control than the other.

Also use tight but realistic schedules; the more something takes, the more are the chances that the client will ask for a revision because they saw something cool / heard a new feature / whatever.

just to finish: i've had a client (when i started to work, so i was pretty naive) that clearly didn't knew nothing about web design, coding and project management; that client asked me to design and code a website to sell their products. It should had ring a bell to me when one the the business owners said that he wanted a website like Vodaphone had (at the time Vodaphone had a minimalistic designed portal) because it looked like a very simple website to make (never mind that Vodaphone had a freaking portal...) with the least of costs whenever possible. An ignorant opinion based on crap.
Anyways i started to design something (according to what they asked) and after three weeks and more than 10 revisions to the original designs i had made, i had to fire the client because the amount of new stuff they were asking everyday was insane, regardless if it was viable or not. Again, i was pretty naive at the time (should "educated" that client). Oh and i never got paid for those :rofl:

Some months passed and i was talking with a friend CEO of a IT shop when one of that client business owners walked out of that shop; i asked my friend whats up with that and he told me that he just made that clients website for more than 10k: it was a simple php CMS and a template he bought a couple days ago; i asked how about the stuff that client wanted in the website and he said to me "that would cost them 5k per change outside the project" :woot: . Moral of the story: if the client is ignorant, educate him; if he still doesn't learn, charge him: that would make him learn pretty fast. :laugh:

#35 Growled

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:01

Unfortunately it sounds like she is the boss now. Find out what she wants and do it.

#36 Praetor

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:04

Unfortunately it sounds like she is the boss now. Find out what she wants and do it.


that sounds like a Brazzers pron movie.

#37 PhilTheThrill

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:47

Yes and no. They hire to design, not change their property around....it is one thing putting a restroom that is accessable to everyone, it is another putting the restroom in the middle of the floor with glass walls because it looks better and everyone can appreciate the artistry of your restroom....which one would get you terminated? Just because you can design it right, doesn't mean that it is in the best interest of the company.


You obviously don't know what web design is. Making it "look nice" is a (relatively small) fraction of the whole.

#38 MikeChipshop

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 07:32

Don't be so sure
Posted Image



Even though i know that was an art installation and no one could actually see in as you done anything, i still couldn't have used it :p

#39 sc302

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:38

You obviously don't know what web design is. Making it "look nice" is a (relatively small) fraction of the whole.

You obviously have no clue what architectural design is. It isn't make something look nice. First it starts with the framework, much like web design. The top layer, or the layer you see, is just the finished product not what is underneath. There is a lot that goes in both web and architectural. If someone wants to put a bathroom somewhere don't decide for them where that bathroom is or what it looks like...that isn't your job, you can make suggestions that is it.

#40 +Nik L

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:01

You obviously don't know what web design is. Making it "look nice" is a (relatively small) fraction of the whole.

You obviously don't know what doing what you're paid to do is. Moreover, anything beyond the aesthetic is development in my mind, not design.

#41 MikeChipshop

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:29

You obviously have no clue what architectural design is. It isn't make something look nice. First it starts with the framework, much like web design. The top layer, or the layer you see, is just the finished product not what is underneath. There is a lot that goes in both web and architectural. If someone wants to put a bathroom somewhere don't decide for them where that bathroom is or what it looks like...that isn't your job, you can make suggestions that is it.


The thing is, the two aren't directly parallel. I think of Web Design more like Interior design. You pay good money to someone that knows what they're doing and you let them get on with it.
Thankfully most of my clients these days understand that. The budget web design market still suffers from backward thinking though. Which means many budget web designers are really just pixel pushing to scrape a living.

You obviously don't know what doing what you're paid to do is. Moreover, anything beyond the aesthetic is development in my mind, not design.


Design and development very much overlap at that point. It's a big confusing lump there in the middle where all the lines are blurred. A good agency will have the design and development team working together to fulfill briefs rather than the two being distinct areas.

You can make a fundamental pretty design that can be useless in practice.

#42 +Nik L

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:32

If he is being asked to prettify the site, that is clearly design. If he is being asked to add features, that is development. Yes there is overlap for the reasons you state (I have built great sites that a designer has destroyed the functionality of, for example).

#43 MikeChipshop

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:41

I have built great sites that a designer has destroyed the functionality of


'aint that the truth!

#44 Praetor

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:44

ultimately the client wants features (aesthetics that need a designer approach and/or new rich features that require a developer approach); he doesn't know how to implement them and doesn't care about that either or the technology involved, it's up to the webdesigner and webdeveloper to answer the client and explain that, it's their field after all.

#45 Coagulated

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:20

What web experience does this Editor have?

I work in a Marketing team and what the Designer says goes in my opinion. He'll consider suggestions, but if it doesn't work he'll tell you exactly why it doesn't work, and that's that.

He's the Visual / UI Guru, that's what he is paid for, that's what he does.

I think you should take heed from the comments regarding highlighting the effect on the budget.

Are you employed on a permanent basis or contract?

In my opinion, as long as you are getting paid, who cares? If they want to waste time and money on you overhauling the web site AGAIN, even after you've explained the financial implications then let them.

If it's that much of an issue, start searching for another contract / job and certainly start taking steps to ensure this doesn't happen with future employers (draft up general terms, which you then personalise to each client etc)