75 posts in this topic

Posted

[quote name='Athernar' timestamp='1367347311' post='595665820']If the prototype has nothing to do with the suit, that counts for both UI minimalism and feature-set. Make up your mind.[/quote]

You aren't making sense. This is about one or more specific features, not about minimalism.

[quote]Paid for what exactly? He didn't do any work, he advocated a certain style of minimalist UI (as per the article) and Opera weren't interested.[/quote]

You are reading a faulty article by The Register which gets things wrong. Read his own blog post instead. If he didn't do any work, why did they keep him around for up to a year?

[quote]Another interesting change of position. First it was he actually made something, now it's down to ideas and vision?[/quote]

What are you talking about?

[quote]Nah, your constantly changing position is a far bigger indicator.[/quote]

What changing position? I have consistently been talking about specific trade secrets, as in ideas, concepts or features that were developed while on Opera's payroll.

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Posted

[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367349989' post='595665894']
You aren't making sense. This is about one or more specific features, not about minimalism.[/quote]

It is not I who is making no sense, you made references to the video then dismissed it as non-relevant to the suit. Either the video is irrelevant or it is. Make up your mind.

[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367349989' post='595665894']
You are reading a faulty article by The Register which gets things wrong. Read his own blog post instead. If he didn't do any work, why did they keep him around for up to a year?[/quote]

Context. He obviously did work for Opera, however that work was not what Opera are trying to lay claim to. He pitched them an idea and they weren't interested.

[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367349989' post='595665894']
What are you talking about?

What changing position? I have consistently been talking about specific trade secrets, as in ideas, concepts or features that were developed while on Opera's payroll.
[/quote]

Now you're being dishonest. Your quotes clearly illustrate you changed your position in regards to what had been "stolen" from an authored entity to a proposition. Either he has stolen commissioned work or he hasn't, and if Opera rejected his proposal then he obviously did not do the work in question for it to be stolen.

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Posted

[quote name='Athernar' timestamp='1367350752' post='595665922']
Context. He obviously did work for Opera, however that work was not what Opera are trying to lay claim to. He pitched them an idea and they weren't interested.

[/quote]

He developed a feature/technology/design while working there. Opera decided not to use it, AT THE TIME, but they still own it, they still paid for it.

as I said, if he didn't want them to own it, he shouldn't have developed it while there, and instead asked them first if this was something they where interested in. As it is, the whole lawsuit seems to indicate that opera was in fact plannign to use it, just not as fast as he wanted them to, and they might be usign it in one of their new mobile products they're making now.

either way, he made it while working at opera, getting paid by opera, all laws on this says it's theirs.

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Posted

[quote name='HawkMan' timestamp='1367352001' post='595665954']
He developed a feature/technology/design while working there. Opera decided not to use it, AT THE TIME, but they still own it, they still paid for it.

as I said, if he didn't want them to own it, he shouldn't have developed it while there, and instead asked them first if this was something they where interested in. As it is, the whole lawsuit seems to indicate that opera was in fact plannign to use it, just not as fast as he wanted them to, and they might be usign it in one of their new mobile products they're making now.

either way, he made it while working at opera, getting paid by opera, all laws on this says it's theirs.
[/quote]

To quote Hansen:

[quote] "These ideas of mine were never sold or transferred to Opera. I've always had an awareness of what is regarded as Opera's property and what is mine."[/quote]

You keep vaguely claiming he developed something without actually being able to say what it is/was exactly. Was it a feature or a design? Was it even developed at all?

If there was actual work done then they have a case, but if it's just him having gone "hey you know what would be cool" then they don't have any rights. And since nobody has yet been able to say/prove what exactly it is that he allegedly stole, then it looks like the latter is what really happened.

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Posted

[quote name='Athernar' timestamp='1367353474' post='595665996']To quote Hansen:[/quote]

So he took their money, but didn't actually produce anything for them? Is that what he's saying? Or is he saying that despite producing something while on Opera's payroll, those things he produced while hired and paid by Opera don't really belong to Opera?

[quote]If there was actual work done then they have a case[/quote]

So they kept him on as a consultant for up to a year without him doing anything? You know how expensive consultants tend to be? So basically, Opera paid a whole lot of money and had nothing when their ways departed?

[quote]but if it's just him having gone "hey you know what would be cool" then they don't have any rights. And since nobody has yet been able to say/prove what exactly it is that he allegedly stole, then it looks like the latter is what really happened.[/quote]

Argumentum ad ignorantiam. You don't know, therefore whatever you imagined is correct?

[quote name='Athernar' timestamp='1367350752' post='595665922']It is not I who is making no sense, you made references to the video then dismissed it as non-relevant to the suit. Either the video is irrelevant or it is. Make up your mind.[/quote]

When did I claim that the video wasn't relevant? The video is allegedly what shows the functionality that was stolen. What isn't relevant is the part of the video that shows the minimalist browser because according to Hansen himself, that minimalist thing is not what this lawsuit is about.

[quote]Context. He obviously did work for Opera, however that work was not what Opera are trying to lay claim to. He pitched them an idea and they weren't interested.[/quote]

It took him nearly a year to pitch an idea (according to his own blog, he was hired as a consultant in early 2009, and left in early 2010)? If they hired him to come up with ideas and he came up with ideas, then those ideas belong to Opera. Otherwise Opera paid him a lot of money (keeping a consultant on for a year can't be cheap) for nothing.

[quote]Now you're being dishonest. Your quotes clearly illustrate you changed your position in regards to what had been "stolen" from an authored entity to a proposition. Either he has stolen commissioned work or he hasn't, and if Opera rejected his proposal then he obviously did not do the work in question for it to be stolen.[/quote]

How do the quotes illustrate that I changed my position? You need to be more specific than that. Obviously he was working on something while hired as a consultant, and that obviously belongs to Opera because they paid him to do it. But he doesn't think Opera owns what they paid him for for some reason. So he decided to steal that which now belonged to Opera, and sell it to Mozilla.

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Posted

[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367354352' post='595666008']
So he took their money, but didn't actually produce anything for them? Is that what he's saying? Or is he saying that despite producing something while on Opera's payroll, those things he produced while hired and paid by Opera don't really belong to Opera?

So they kept him on as a consultant for up to a year without him doing anything? You know how expensive consultants tend to be? So basically, Opera paid a whole lot of money and had nothing when their ways departed?[/quote]

Since when did not doing any work under Opera in regards to the claimed stolen property translate into not doing any work at all?

[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367354352' post='595666008']
Argumentum ad ignorantiam. You don't know, therefore whatever you imagined is correct?[/quote]

You're just as ignorant in this case as everyone else, at least until such time as you can actually say what was stolen and what his job/contract entailed.

[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367354352' post='595666008']
When did I claim that the video wasn't relevant? The video is allegedly what shows the functionality that was stolen. What isn't relevant is the part of the video that shows the minimalist browser because according to Hansen himself, that minimalist thing is not what this lawsuit is about.[/quote]

If the prototype isn't relevant, then so are the features it contains.

[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367354352' post='595666008']
It took him nearly a year to pitch an idea (according to his own blog, he was hired as a consultant in early 2009, and left in early 2010)? If they hired him to come up with ideas and he came up with ideas, then those ideas belong to Opera. Otherwise Opera paid him a lot of money (keeping a consultant on for a year can't be cheap) for nothing.

How do the quotes illustrate that I changed my position? You need to be more specific than that. Obviously he was working on something while hired as a consultant, and that obviously belongs to Opera because they paid him to do it. But he doesn't think Opera owns what they paid him for for some reason. So he decided to steal that which now belonged to Opera, and sell it to Mozilla.
[/quote]

Why do I have to be specific when you get to hide behind vague claims and semantics?

First you can't decide if it was a feature, idea or concept that was stolen, now his job seems to alternate between being a paid ideas-guy and "working on something".

Seems rather pointless to claim someone is guilty of theft when you can't even answer these questions.

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Posted

[quote name='Athernar' timestamp='1367359390' post='595666142']Since when did not doing any work under Opera in regards to the claimed stolen property translate into not doing any work at all?[/quote]

So you know for a fact that what Opera is suing for is not something anyone did any work on?

[quote]You're just as ignorant in this case as everyone else, at least until such time as you can actually say what was stolen and what his job/contract entailed.[/quote]

Did you actually read his blog? As obviously one-sided as it is it actually clarifies quite a few things.

[quote]If the prototype isn't relevant, then so are the features it contains.[/quote]

Did you actually watch the video? The Junior prototype was separate from other features they showed. Those features were part of a desktop browser. One of them was mentioned in the guy's blog where he specifically explained that the Junior was not part of the lawsuit.

In other words, the simplified Junior iPad browser is not relevant. At least one of the actual desktop features mentioned in the browser is, however.

[quote]Why do I have to be specific when you get to hide behind vague claims and semantics?[/quote]

I'm not. In fact, I have pointed you both to the video from 2012 and the guy's own blog. You are, however, making vague claims that you refuse to back up.

[quote]First you can't decide if it was a feature, idea or concept that was stolen, now his job seems to alternate between being a paid ideas-guy and "working on something".[/quote]

It doesn't matter whether it was a feature, idea or concept. The point is that the work he did at Opera belongs to Opera.

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Posted

[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367362358' post='595666234']
So you know for a fact that what Opera is suing for is not something anyone did any work on?[/quote]

What does "anyone" have to do with this?

Until such time as you can demonstrate to the contrary, and by extension - elaborate as to the terms of his employment/contract and the scope of what exactly was stolen, yes.

[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367362358' post='595666234']
I'm not. In fact, I have pointed you both to the video from 2012 and the guy's own blog. You are, however, making vague claims that you refuse to back up.[/quote]

And yet you still haven't been able to tell me what exactly was stolen.

[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367362358' post='595666234']
It doesn't matter whether it was a feature, idea or concept. The point is that the work he did at Opera belongs to Opera.
[/quote]

Yes, it does matter. Because if it was outside of what he was employed/contracted to do then it's not Opera's property.

So if he was employed/contracted to design a feature or create concepts, him simply having an idea (That he may of had prior) does not fall within the bounds of Opera's ownership.

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Posted

[quote name='Javik' timestamp='1367306495' post='595664964']
This just highlights how stupid modern I.P laws are getting. Companies shouldn't be allowed to have patents and I.P protection on things that aren't even used in their products
[/quote]

Am I free to steal your stuff if you're not using it?

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[quote name='Athernar' timestamp='1367363219' post='595666266']Until such time as you can demonstrate to the contrary, and by extension - elaborate as to the terms of his employment/contract and the scope of what exactly was stolen, yes.[/quote]

So you didn't watch the video [b]or[/b] read the blog yet...

What if it turns out that he [b]did[/b] sell one or more trade secrets to Mozilla? Do you agree that the lawsuit would have merit in such a case?

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Posted

[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367406670' post='595666826']
So you didn't watch the video [b]or[/b] read the blog yet...

What if it turns out that he [b]did[/b] sell one or more trade secrets to Mozilla? Do you agree that the lawsuit would have merit in such a case?
[/quote]

The blog only confirms what I originally thought.

So not only was the original idea/concept never developed, but it was originally thought of in a period of time when Hansen was neither an employee or contractor - and proposed informally before he was contracted.

All you seem to be left with is a weak connection to some of his later contract work that was [I]based[/I] on his "GB" concept, thus bringing us back to my original question. What exactly was stolen, and what is Opera's claim to it?

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[quote name='Athernar' timestamp='1367428614' post='595667560']So not only was the original idea/concept never developed, but it was originally thought of in a period of time when Hansen was neither an employee or contractor - and proposed informally before he was contracted.[/quote]

What do you mean by "never developed"? Doing design work is not real work? Internal and secret design documents are not covered by NDAs and other contracts?

Are you also saying that if you originally think of something and then get paid to design it, that design doesn't belong to those who paid for the design to be made? So basically, any work a designer does for a company doesn't really belong to the company?

[quote]All you seem to be left with is a weak connection to some of his later contract work that was [i]based[/i] on his "GB" concept, thus bringing us back to my original question. What exactly was stolen, and what is Opera's claim to it?[/quote]

So you didn't read his blog after all? Because he mentions at least one specific example. And even though you didn't read it you claim that it supports your argument? LOL.

Now, back to my question: What if it turns out that he [b]did[/b] sell one or more trade secrets to Mozilla? Do you agree that the lawsuit would have merit in such a case?

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[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367434869' post='595667760']
What do you mean by "never developed"? Doing design work is not real work? Internal and secret design documents are not covered by NDAs and other contracts?

Are you also saying that if you originally think of something and then get paid to design it, that design doesn't belong to those who paid for the design to be made? So basically, any work a designer does for a company doesn't really belong to the company?[/quote]

Are you dense? It quite clearly says in his blog:

[quote]In the summer of 2008, Opera

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Posted

[quote name='Athernar' timestamp='1367439004' post='595667882']Are you dense? It quite clearly says in his blog:[/quote]

LOL. You didn't even bother to read all of it. The very next paragraph states:

[i]"In the beginning of 2009, we come to an agreement of me just helping out as a consultant instead, and during 2009 and 2010 some of my design proposals will naturally be based on some of my older GB concepts, since that

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[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367444381' post='595668036']
LOL. You didn't even bother to read all of it. The very next paragraph states:

[i]"In the beginning of 2009, we come to an agreement of me just helping out as a consultant instead, and during 2009 and 2010 some of my design proposals will naturally be based on some of my older GB concepts, since that

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[quote name='Athernar' timestamp='1367445978' post='595668066']Irrelevant. The original core concept was envisioned outside of Opera's reach so it's none of their business. The extent of their rights are limited to the content of the designs delivered to them under the contract.[/quote]

Actually, he was paid by Opera to make something. It doesn't matter if he had an idea before selling it to Opera. He was paid by Opera to come up with ideas, and he delivered ideas to them. That means that Opera has paid for those ideas, and they are Opera's property.

[quote]What part of "Simply mentioning a Firefox feature and Opera claiming that's evidence he leaked something is neither specific nor meaningful" don't you understand?[/quote]

No, he mentions that as a specific thing Opera alleges that he illegally sold to Mozilla. Whether this is really the case is for the courts to decide.

Remember, you wrote: "There is nothing contained within the blog that is specific."

But the blog [b]is[/b] being specific about a feature.

Now, back to my question: What if it turns out that he [b]did[/b] sell one or more trade secrets to Mozilla? Do you agree that the lawsuit would have merit if that were the case? Why are you afraid to answer this question?

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Posted

Thought experiment:

You have an idea. A company then hires you as a contractor, and asks you to come up with ideas for them. You present the idea you had to them, and they pay you as agreed.

Does that company not own the idea they paid you to give them? If not, what exactly did they pay you for?

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Posted

Why does Opera still exist? What's the point of it. They don't use their own engine, they have next to no market share, and the majority of their users are self loving ******s.

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[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367452817' post='595668170']
Actually, he was paid by Opera to make something. It doesn't matter if he had an idea before selling it to Opera. He was paid by Opera to come up with ideas, and he delivered ideas to them. That means that Opera has paid for those ideas, and they are Opera's property.[/quote]

Yes, it does matter. Because if that idea is not what was given to Opera then it's not their property. Simple as that.

[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367452817' post='595668170']
No, he mentions that as a specific thing Opera alleges that he illegally sold to Mozilla. Whether this is really the case is for the courts to decide.

Remember, you wrote: "There is nothing contained within the blog that is specific."

But the blog [b]is[/b] being specific about a feature.[/quote]

There is nothing specific in pointing at something and then merely claiming it's proof of theft. Why do you have such a problem with understanding this simple concept?

[quote name='PreKe' timestamp='1367452817' post='595668170']
Now, back to my question: What if it turns out that he [b]did[/b] sell one or more trade secrets to Mozilla? Do you agree that the lawsuit would have merit if that were the case? Why are you afraid to answer this question?
[/quote]

Hypotheticals are completely irrelevant to this discussion. Are you trying to divert attention away from your destroyed arguments?

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[quote name='Nashy' timestamp='1367453491' post='595668188']
Why does Opera still exist? What's the point of it. They don't use their own engine, they have next to no market share, and the majority of their users are self loving ******s.
[/quote]

Well because engine aside it's still the best browser. I've tried changing but no other bowser relly can replace it. By the time I have chrome or FF working a close to opera as possible, I have installed bucketload of extensions and tweaked them to hell, and here sill NLT halfway there.

Besides that, 1% is million upon millions. And it's not ll they do'they also do embedded browsers for Sony and Nintendo among others.

As for the users, so you're saying opera users are like chrome and FF users then...
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[quote name='HawkMan' timestamp='1367472626' post='595668516']
As for the users, so you're saying opera users are like chrome and FF users then...
[/quote]

Oooohh, no he di'int!

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[quote name='Athernar' timestamp='1367454248' post='595668198']
Yes, it does matter. Because if that idea is not what was given to Opera then it's not their property. Simple as that.

There is nothing specific in pointing at something and then merely claiming it's proof of theft. Why do you have such a problem with understanding this simple concept?

Hypotheticals are completely irrelevant to this discussion. Are you trying to divert attention away from your destroyed arguments?
[/quote]

Sorry PreKe, but Athenar is completely right. I'm a software developer myself and generally, contracts are worded that only things developed on company time or using company equipment belong to the company. Anything else belongs to the person, even stuff you develop in your own time but when contracted to the company. Unless it was developed specifically for or transferred to the company, or developed using company resources, it belongs to the individual.

Of course, it's possible his specific contract is worded differently; but of all the ones I've seen, that's not how things are generally done in Europe.
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[quote name='O5M3L' timestamp='1367342901' post='595665702']
OMG I remember using this once years ago lol.
[/quote]

Yeah,
I tried it once years ago also and almost IMMEDIATELY uninstalled that POS!! It's amazing how a story on one browser always brings some one in advertising (basically) another browser. WTF?!

Opera has every right to sue the contractor, whether right or wrong.

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[quote name='FloatingFatMan' timestamp='1367487149' post='595668660']Sorry PreKe, but Athenar is completely right. I'm a software developer myself and generally, contracts are worded that only things developed on company time or using company equipment belong to the company. Anything else belongs to the person, even stuff you develop in your own time but when contracted to the company. Unless it was developed specifically for or transferred to the company, or developed using company resources, it belongs to the individual.[/quote]

What is he right about? We don't even know the details yet. How can you tell me he's right when not even half of the relevant facts are on the table yet?

However, your explanation doesn't make sense. If you create something on your spare time and never bring it to the company, sure. But if you are paid to bring something to the company and you bring something you already made, that should definitely belong to the company. They paid you for it, after all.

This was a consultancy gig, though, not a regular employment situation. Basically Opera the company hired Trond Hanson's company to do stuff for them. And if you get a task and you get money to complete it, Once the task has been completed and you get your money you can't just take back the work you did and keep the money. You just sold it to the company who gave you the task.

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That only applies to stuff developed during the contract term, for the company. Stuff developed beforehand and vaguely discussed but never actually transferred to them doesn't count.

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