What's the point of privacy?

[Matthew_Thepc]

One thing that I've heard mentioned in many discussions about privacy (on Neowin and off) is the whole "what's the point of privacy" argument, and it usually either gets ignored or a wishy-washy "it's important because it's privacy!" kind of non-answer.

basically, why is online privacy (mostly in the context of ad companies) important? What does it matter if Google tracks me so that they can display ads that are more relevant to me? What does it matter if Google scans all of my emails to deliver better ads?

The two legitimate reasons I could think of:

- How the company handles your privacy in one area could be indicative of how they handle your data in general

- The "filter bubble" effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_bubble

Also in corporate settings where privacy is paramount because of trade secrets, etc. I get it, but for the average person what does it matter? I mean, I doubt Google/Microsoft/etc. has a whole division set up to read the hundreds of millions (billions?) of emails that get sent each day, and even if they did would they really care about that great new cookie recipe someone just found, or the groupon deal they just received?

Don't get me wrong - obviously I don't want my privacy "thrown out the window," but isn't it pretty much paranoia that drives the whole "online privacy movement?" Honestly not trying to start a flame war or anything; I'm genuinely curious if there are any other reasons that I should be worried about ad companies tracking my online habits.

[Rippleman]

artificial blanket of comfort for the scared and paranoid - typically control freaks

[Growled Member]

People seem to forget there is no privacy in public.

[droolingmonkey]

Its cos we're all dodgey, at some level or to some degree, whether it be travelling a little faster than the posted speed limit, lying about what time we will be home, slightly flirtier conversations with workmates than our partners might like...whatever it is, people want to keep their secrets secret (apart from those they tell!). Personally, I understand OP's perspective, I also struggle to find actual reasons, though I do think privacy is worth holding onto as long as we can. But lets face it, in a generation or two, there will be NO privacy.

[Joshie]

It's similar to the question of "why is anonymity important". Nobody's really sure, and many people talk about the "possibility" or "inevitability" of tyrants in positions of power who could abuse personal information to persecute people.

So essentially, it's about ensuring the right to stay hidden from tyrants who may someday exist. Oddly this ignores the importance of, you know, fighting the tyrants. In other words, fighting for privacy and anonymity is paradoxically a very passive activity.

As long as freedoms are established and protected, these rights are unnecessary. If free speech is protected, anonymity becomes redundant. People argue that the Federalist Papers were published under pseudonyms, and that this is a justification for protecting anonymity. This argument blatantly ignores that the same people later fought to establish freedom of speech so that people could freely publish without persecution. This freedom was meant to guarantee that anonymity would no longer be necessary.

Privacy, on the other hand, is similar, but for where anonymity doesn't work. Where anonymity is about speech, privacy is about behavior. To do something that is illegal or socially unacceptable, privacy is required to avoid repercussions. Again, this is passive behavior. It does not mean the individual is also actively fighting for acceptance or decriminalization of the behavior, and in most cases, they are not. It goes without saying that a majority of gay people never marched or evangelized. A majority of marijuana users (and people in general) couldn't even name their own congressmen, let alone write a letter to one. Once someone finds a way to hide their behavior, why risk shining a light on it? Note that many of the most active voices in gay rights were heterosexuals, and in marijuana decriminalization, non-users.

Privacy is for the person who doesn't want to deal with society's negative reactions, while simultaneously holding society in contempt. These are the people who'll say they don't give a f**k what society thinks--right before saying their behavior is none of society's f**king business. It's confusing, and the pieces don't really fit together, but there you have it.

[Hum]

I suppose privacy helps to avoids stress.

[astropheed Veteran]

. . .

... :o

I just want to add one little bit to this brilliant response: Because we were told we want it and scared into thinking we're losing it so we grasp ever more tightly.

Personally I don't care that I have zero privacy, but I do care when certain people know certain things about me. There are some things Society would frown upon with all of us.

[srbeen]

privacy and freedom are hand and hand. if you have no privacy, are you really free?

[astropheed Veteran]

privacy and freedom are hand and hand. if you have no privacy, are you really free?

Yes.

Edit: I love when people propose questions like this and I just know in their head they feel like some deep character in a movie that asks this psychological question that stirs deep emotions in the reader for them to truly come to terms with the truth that was in front of them all along. When in reality you're just asking a question and a dumb one at that. You're honestly trying to say because first world nations have technology capable of tracking where you are that you lose the liberties afforded to you by living there to begin with? Take a trip to a third, hell even a "second" world nation and tell me that you'd rather their freedom. But hey, they don't track who your favorite American Idol is or what you ate on Wednesday so it's totally better.

[_dandy_]

> I doubt Google/Microsoft/etc. has a whole division set up to read the hundreds of millions (billions?) of emails that get sent each day, and even if they did would they really care about that great new cookie recipe someone just found, or the groupon deal they just received?

If that's what you have to ask about, you're really not getting the big picture.

[123456789A]

To those of you who don't care about privacy, go ahead and post your full name, address, phone number, etc.. you know, public information.

[Joshie]

privacy and freedom are hand and hand. if you have no privacy, are you really free?

This is boneheaded rhetoric. Your argument is meaningless without defining both "freedom" and "privacy".

My guess is you're making the same tired mistake of believing people need to be able to hide in order to be free. I challenge that and say that, in a world where people need privacy in order to do what they want, they are, in fact, NOT free. Freedom to do X inherently means that one is able to do X regardless of the reactions of others who are aware of your behavior.

[DrJohnSmitherson]

I want privacy because it's my information. No one else needs to know it. If someone wants to be private and have privacy rights, let them. If you don't like it, post everything about yourself if that makes you feel better. Please go to your Google History and post all of it. Provide us a zip file of all your emails as well.

[srbeen]

This is boneheaded rhetoric. Your argument is meaningless without defining both "freedom" and "privacy".

My guess is you're making the same tired mistake of believing people need to be able to hide in order to be free. I challenge that and say that, in a world where people need privacy in order to do what they want, they are, in fact, NOT free. Freedom to do X inherently means that one is able to do X regardless of the reactions of others who are aware of your behavior.

..seriously? You'd be fine with Russia having exact coordinates on all the US forces then? a situation like North Korea?

as for online privacy, there is none and hasn't ever been any. Arguing over it is arguing over a dead horse. the internet wasn't designed with privacy in mind - rather the exact opposite.

[Joshie]

To those of you who don't care about privacy, go ahead and post your full name, address, phone number, etc.. you know, public information.

This is a distraction and is not an actual argument. You believe you're making a point by calling out a person's hesitance to post that information here. This three-snaps-in-a-triangle pseudo-argument fails and you should already realize that. What's more, you've completely confused anonymity with privacy and don't even realize it.

Having a user account that is not tied to personal information is anonymity. Having personal information on file that others can't access without my consent is privacy. Now that you've learned some new words, try again.

[Matthew_Thepc]

> I doubt Google/Microsoft/etc. has a whole division set up to read the hundreds of millions (billions?) of emails that get sent each day, and even if they did would they really care about that great new cookie recipe someone just found, or the groupon deal they just received?

If that's what you have to ask about, you're really not getting the big picture.

Which is why I asked ;)

I was just using that as a hyperbole, saying that, AFAIK, there's probably no scary like group of major internet companies built just to steal your data.

The big picture is what I was asking about - specifically in terms of ad tracking (and the like), what's the big deal?

I'm not trying to say that it's great, I'd just like to understand your viewpoint

[Joshie]

..seriously? You'd be fine with Russia having exact coordinates on all the US forces then? a situation like North Korea?

What does that have to do with anything? What does that have to do with an individual's rights? Instead of these ridiculous hypotheticals that you and others think make points, why don't you actually reason out a philosophy talking about the concepts themselves.

If the only arguments you can come up with are worst case scenario what-ifs, then you have no argument. You're using a variation of the slippery slope fallacy, and if you need to learn what the word fallacy means, the Internet is here to help.

Here's a fun thought. For all the fondness Internet slacktivists have for the old Franklin quote:

Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.

Explain to me how privacy and anonymity are not examples of security. By demanding privacy and anonymity instead of a society where people can act and believe without persecution, you are accepting a measure of security and ignoring the need for freedom. Franklin would say you deserve neither.

[123456789A]

This is a distraction and is not an actual argument. You believe you're making a point by calling out a person's hesitance to post that information here. This three-snaps-in-a-triangle pseudo-argument fails and you should already realize that. What's more, you've completely confused anonymity with privacy and don't even realize it.

Having a user account that is not tied to personal information is anonymity. Having personal information on file that others can't access without my consent is privacy. Now that you've learned some new words, try again.

If I want privacy of my information, I don't want anyone to access that information.

If I don't care about privacy of my information, I shouldn't have any problem posting it here making it public.

[AWilliams87]

Only older people, techies and politicians care. Politicians only insofar as it allows them to seek greater control via regulations.

[chrisj1968]

artificial blanket of comfort for the scared and paranoid - typically control freaks

Privacy is important not just to paranoid people. identity theft is on the rise. That's a truly legit reason for privacy.

[Rippleman]

Privacy is important not just to paranoid people. identity theft is on the rise. That's a truly legit reason for privacy.

Paranoid. Identity theft is not the same as the topic at hand.

[foonacha]

Of course it is! if you can't maintain full control over your own identity & personal information, then those bits of info are ripe for exploitation. Identity Theft is a serious & increasing crime in todays world. Corrupt public officials; Corporate entities & other criminally inclined groups *love* having all the facts & figures about an individual at their fingertips. You can't create & maintain a Police State without it. & that's where we're heading if people don't stand up & say-NO MORE. My identity is my own, & i don't give my consent to anyone else having information about me stored anywhere.

It is not "paranoid" to insist on this. It is common sense if you have *any* sense of self preservation about you.

[Rippleman]

Of course it is! if you can't maintain full control over your own identity & personal information, then those bits of info are ripe for exploitation. Identity Theft is a serious & increasing crime in todays world. Corrupt public officials; Corporate entities & other criminally inclined groups *love* having all the facts & figures about an individual at their fingertips. You can't create & maintain a Police State without it. & that's where we're heading if people don't stand up & say-NO MORE. My identity is my own, & i don't give my consent to anyone else having information about me stored anywhere.

It is not "paranoid" to insist on this. It is common sense if you have *any* sense of self preservation about you.

watch out, the government and baddies are watching what you you type RIGHT NOW. If THEY know that YOU know, then you could disappear any moment now by the men in black. Lock your doors, load your guns, and grab 4X boxes of tinfoil! hurry!

[chrisj1968]

watch out, the government and baddies are watching what you you type RIGHT NOW. If THEY know that YOU know, then you could disappear any moment now by the men in black. Lock your doors, load your guns, and grab 4X boxes of tinfoil! hurry!

Here's an example of privacy concerns... overreach and this is a scandal currently

http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/13/the-irs-admits-to-targeting-conservative-groups-but-were-they-also-leaking/

not to get off topic! but a blazen example of where privacy is important

[McKay]

Lol, all the peoples addresses got removed.